Hornby 2021 - P2 new tooling

[Bon Accord]

21 hours ago, Steam here! said:

Hi all, I picked my P2 on the other day 2003 “Lord President” and have just noticed in the accessory pack it’s missing the guard irons.

 

is anyone missing there’s?

 

Apart from that a really nice loco.

 

Yes my 2005 doesn't have them either, although all other parts are there.

Did you ask Hornby directly about it?

[PeterStiles]

Oooh.

They've asked me to update my payment details for 2007! It must have arrived!

 

An ti ci      pation...

[Widnes Model Centre]

17 minutes ago, PeterStiles said:

Oooh.

They've asked me to update my payment details for 2007! It must have arrived!

 

An ti ci      pation...

Prince of Wales has arrived at Hornby.

[sirwilliamfrs]

Quote from the e-mail received from Hornby today:-  

 

"Presenting the P2 Collection-

Today also heralds the arrival of ‘Earl Marischal’ (the only P2 to have smoke deflectors) and ‘Lord President’. You can buy these two powerful P2 models right now." 

 

No smoke deflectors on 2002 Earl Marischal!  Does anyone at Hornby know what they're doing?

[pom-pom]

On 06/08/2023 at 01:44, Steam here! said:

Hi all, I picked my P2 on the other day 2003 “Lord President” and have just noticed in the accessory pack it’s missing the guard irons.

 

is anyone missing there’s?

 

Apart from that a really nice loco.

 

The main guard irons are missing from mine too. They are also missing from the R3246 P2, Cock O' the North and from the W1 although please see the attached picture - the vestigial guard irons attached to the pony truck are present on all models. Whilst Hornby state, I believe, that these models will impressively cope with radius-2 curves, the attachment of the main guard irons could well prevent the models negotiating almost any model curves. Perhaps they are simply missing from all Hornby P2s: 2001, 2002, 2003 and 2005. I have yet to see any despite there being a video review presented earlier in the thread where the author stated they were in the accessory pack - I could not see any myself.

 

 

 

[AdamOrmorod]

Just got my 2005, generally looks good, if a somewhat duller green than I was expecting. Haven't had chance to run yet as am in the department, but two things have caught my eye so far: fireman's side printed nameplate is slightly on the wonk, and there's quite a join between the smokebox and boiler, most visible from the rear, not helped by this part being painted black:

 

 

Does anyone else's look like this? In two minds whether to try my luck at getting a better one, or try a very careful application of green paint...

[micklner]

2 hours ago, AdamOrmorod said:

Just got my 2005, generally looks good, if a somewhat duller green than I was expecting. Haven't had chance to run yet as am in the department, but two things have caught my eye so far: fireman's side printed nameplate is slightly on the wonk, and there's quite a join between the smokebox and boiler, most visible from the rear, not helped by this part being painted black:

 

 

Does anyone else's look like this? In two minds whether to try my luck at getting a better one, or try a very careful application of green paint...

The only way to hid that awful join is by filling, painting etc . Hopefully its looks like a wrong un, and I would send it back.

[Steam here!]

19 hours ago, Bon Accord said:

 

Yes my 2005 doesn't have them either, although all other parts are there.

Did you ask Hornby directly about it?

No not yet, but going to send an email tonight and fingers cross, they’ll send some out.

not sure if all four variants/ releases are missing the guard irons.

 

[kelsh003]

Anyone had anything shipped from Hornby via DPD today? Order I placed last Thursday was due to be shipped today according to an email they sent as missed Friday's collection but tracking not updated yet.

 

Not familiar with Hornby as first time ordering direct so don't know how late they can collect.

[AdamOrmorod]

1 hour ago, kelsh003 said:

Anyone had anything shipped from Hornby via DPD today? Order I placed last Thursday was due to be shipped today according to an email they sent as missed Friday's collection but tracking not updated yet.

 

Not familiar with Hornby as first time ordering direct so don't know how late they can collect.

I was DPD, shipped Friday and arrived today.

[kelsh003]

25 minutes ago, AdamOrmorod said:

I was DPD, shipped Friday and arrived today.

 

Thats a good sign. Any idea when they picked up from Hornby? Mines still sat in the warehouse apparantley 

[palmsticks]

I learnt today from my wife that the collective name for a group of P2s is "toomeni"...

 

Anyway, here are some pictures of monterous green engines with some big green engines to act as a comparison for LNER livery applications.  My phone camera is not the best, so apologies for the quality of the pictures (obviously the equipment at fault and def not the operator).  Usual caveate applies re. colour: inside under LED lighting, on digital sensor, displayed with *insert screen type here* screen. 

 

Some observations:-

• 2002 Earl Marishal = as built condition (as already reported) (--> Suppose I can definatively answer my own question in the other thread!)
• 2002 accessory bag does include guard irons, but 2003 and 2005 do not.
• 2002 cab roof correctly has no ventilators behind and above the driver and fireman.  Both 2003 and 2005 do. <--Anybody know when this mod was applied? When built, they did also did not have them.  2006 built from new with these ventilators based on experience with the others (so says Yeadons).
• They are heavy
• 2003 and 2005 -Join visible where the Bugatti smokebox component mates to the boiler section (not visible on 2002) as reported by @AdamOrmorod but not as noticeable (to me) and not a deal breaker. 2005 does seem to suffer more.
• Slight witness of tool parting lines at 10 o'clock & 2 o'clock on 2002.
• Accessory name plates appear to be brass and not plastic (as reported by @Steam here!) after scratching the paint away on the back of the fret holding them and seeing a shiny brass colour.  Well, this is the case with 2002.  Didn't check the others.
• The close coupling is Ree Modeles good.
• Line lining on the front of the cab is very nice and shows up earlier examples of black borders being too large
• Pleased with them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2023 by palmsticks

[palmsticks]

On 05/08/2023 at 10:19, TomScrut said:

 

No, which is why I wonder as to whether it's a good idea Hornby making them before the loco is ready.

 

I am told that the quickest way to get an accurate version of 2007 is to pay these people:

https://www.a1steam.com/p2donation#/

 

😉

[AdamOrmorod]

5 hours ago, palmsticks said:

• 2003 and 2005 -Join visible where the Bugatti smokebox component mates to the boiler section (not visible on 2002) as reported by @AdamOrmorod but not as noticeable (to me) and not a deal breaker. 2005 does seem to suffer more.

 

 

 

To me it looks like the front of the sloping boiler section is slightly under diameter compared to the smokebox. Your 2005 does look about the same as mine, and I'm becoming more tempted to keep this one since the join is at least uniform all the way around.

 

I'll still refrain from running it until I hear from Hornby. 

[sirwilliamfrs]

23 hours ago, pom-pom said:

 

The main guard irons are missing from mine too. They are also missing from the R3246 P2, Cock O' the North and from the W1 although please see the attached picture - the vestigial guard irons attached to the pony truck are present on all models. Whilst Hornby state, I believe, that these models will impressively cope with radius-2 curves, the attachment of the main guard irons could well prevent the models negotiating almost any model curves. Perhaps they are simply missing from all Hornby P2s: 2001, 2002, 2003 and 2005. I have yet to see any despite there being a video review presented earlier in the thread where the author stated they were in the accessory pack - I could not see any myself.

 

 

 

Missing guard irons? Not a problem, just take them off any late-era Hornby A3 or A4 which shouldn't have them!

Edited August 8, 2023 by sirwilliamfrs
correction

[mattingleycustom]

8 hours ago, palmsticks said:

 

I am told that the quickest way to get an accurate version of 2007 is to pay these people:

https://www.a1steam.com/p2donation#/

 

😉

I'd love to but they seem to have put the wrong front end on it and given it a silly name without a Scottish connection.

 

Glenn

[No Decorum]

5 minutes ago, mattingleycustom said:

I'd love to but they seem to have put the wrong front end on it and given it a silly name without a Scottish connection.

 

Glenn

I was rather surprised that they chose to build the version which Gresley rebuilt because it failed to meet expectations. They do seem confident that they can get it right, though. All the same, I’m glad that they are building such an impressive machine and I’m very interested to learn how it works in service. As for the name, I think it has been pointed out already that Duke of Rothesay would have been more appropriate, given royal patronage. Nevertheless, these people have devoted so much of their lives to it that I think they’re entitled to call it Rattletrap if they wish!

[TomScrut]

41 minutes ago, No Decorum said:

I was rather surprised that they chose to build the version which Gresley rebuilt because it failed to meet expectations. They do seem confident that they can get it right, though.

 

What parts of it that were problematic are still on there?

 

I thought a lot of the mechanical items were very similar/identical to Tornado, or completely redesigned.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

44 minutes ago, No Decorum said:

I was rather surprised that they chose to build the version which Gresley rebuilt because it failed to meet expectations. ...

 

2 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

What parts of it that were problematic are still on there?

 

I thought a lot of the mechanical items were very similar/identical to Tornado, or completely redesigned.

It's not just the mechanicals. Exhaust clearance was a significant problem with the original external form. The use of the Bugatti shrouding when the A4 was introduced, suggested the way forward in fixing this problem on the P2.

 

Now, admittedly aerodynamic knowledge is much advanced over that of the 1930's so something approximating the original external form may  now be made to perform better. But it's money being spent toward solving a problem long ago eliminated would be my feeling. And it won't be anywhere near as attractive...

 

On the mechanical side, hopefully advances in technique will succeed in overcoming this machine's major problems in riding on curves, and dealing with the piston thrusts with 33% more adhesion inflicting greater loads on the big ends. Where the equivalent pacific would begin to relieve load by slipping, the mikado won't. (Chapelon had much to say on this matter, that the weight restrictions of European railways set a limit on higher power output steam locos; because key aspects of the construction could not be made stronger.)

[Johan DC]

Is the streamlined P2 at Doncaster still being build? Haven't heard of it for quite some time?

[No Decorum]

7 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

What parts of it that were problematic are still on there?

 

I thought a lot of the mechanical items were very similar/identical to Tornado, or completely redesigned.

A major problem was with the poppet valves. They were operated by cam followers which ended in a point (probably somewhat rounded) and the cams had a continuous slope so that  cut off could be continuously varied, rather like conventional valves. The cam followers wore rapidly, so they were replaced by ones ending in an edge and the cams themselves were stepped, allowing six (if I recall correctly) cut off settings. In practice, these did not always allow the optimum cut off settings in all circumstances. Earl Marischal had conventional piston valves which proved more satisfactory.

 

Tornado and Prince of Wales have similar boilers, based, I believe on Wolf of Badenoch, which was the only P2 to have a combustion chamber, but the valve gears are different. To answer my own doubts, Duke of Gloucester has poppet valves which work excellently. The latter was a poor performer when originally built but the problems were due to the dampers being constructed smaller than designed and the use of a plain double chimney instead of the Kylchap specified. DoG has been restored to the original specification and its performance in preservation is second to none, so perhaps I was needlessly worried.

Edited August 8, 2023 by No Decorum
Clumsy expression.

[Edge]

I believe that I read somewhere on the P2 project page that they were loading with the owners and operators of 71000 to ensure that lessons learned there would be incorporated into 2007.

[Edge]

12 minutes ago, Johan DC said:

Is the streamlined P2 at Doncaster still being build? Haven't heard of it for quite some time?

Just had a look on the website - it’s still there, but it appears to have gone quiet. The first line on the page is a request for people to stay safe during COVID, although the website shop still seems to be operating. 

[No Decorum]

4 minutes ago, Johan DC said:

Is the streamlined P2 at Doncaster still being build? Haven't heard of it for quite some time?

Sadly, very little  progress seems to have been made for some years. Frames exist. Someone said in the early days of building steam locomotives that a common comment was, “Ah but what about the boiler?” The boiler must be one of the most difficult and expensive items to construct and I don’t think a start has been made on that. It’s a pity because I agree with 34theletterbetweenB&D: “And it won't be anywhere near as attractive...” The Doncaster one was to have the streamlined front but 2001, 2002 and now 2007 have cowling which makes them look square fronted from sideways on.

 

It reminds me of when there was a proposal to build a new steam locomotive and then things went quiet. I took a tour of the organisation in question and asked the guide about it. He replied by asking me if I had three million quid. It isn’t easy and the folks who have built Tornado and are building PoW have my admiration.

[Trevor Hammond]

14 hours ago, palmsticks said:

I learnt today from my wife that the collective name for a group of P2s is "toomeni"...

 

Anyway, here are some pictures of monterous green engines with some big green engines to act as a comparison for LNER livery applications.  My phone camera is not the best, so apologies for the quality of the pictures (obviously the equipment at fault and def not the operator).  Usual caveate applies re. colour: inside under LED lighting, on digital sensor, displayed with *insert screen type here* screen. 

 

Some observations:-

• 2002 Earl Marishal = as built condition (as already reported) (--> Suppose I can definatively answer my own question in the other thread!)
• 2002 accessory bag does include guard irons, but 2003 and 2005 do not.
• 2002 cab roof correctly has no ventilators behind and above the driver and fireman.  Both 2003 and 2005 do. <--Anybody know when this mod was applied? When built, they did also did not have them.  2006 built from new with these ventilators based on experience with the others (so says Yeadons).
• They are heavy
• 2003 and 2005 -Join visible where the Bugatti smokebox component mates to the boiler section (not visible on 2002) as reported by @AdamOrmorod but not as noticeable (to me) and not a deal breaker. 2005 does seem to suffer more.
• Slight witness of tool parting lines at 10 o'clock & 2 o'clock on 2002.
• Accessory name plates appear to be brass and not plastic (as reported by @Steam here!) after scratching the paint away on the back of the fret holding them and seeing a shiny brass colour.  Well, this is the case with 2002.  Didn't check the others.
• The close coupling is Ree Modeles good.
• Line lining on the front of the cab is very nice and shows up earlier examples of black borders being too large
• Pleased with them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I collected my three from my dealer this afternoon. Delighted.  No  visible faults, nice finish, they all run well and will handle second radius curves without any problems.