KR Models announced intention: Haydock Foundry 0-6-0WT 'Bellerophon'

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, BVMR21 said:

I’ll be more concerned that it can actually haul stuff than actually have 100% accurate valve gear, may be a somewhat minority position but good running qualities like that of the PI Victory or Rapido Hunslet are closer to what I’m fussed about.

Not so sure you're in the minority with that.  Whatever the details of its valve gear, it's a cute little beast, although part of its charm is certainly the very visible moving parts.

 

I think it's more a question of whether the manufacturer's claim is over-hyped to the point of being factually incorrect and therefore misleading, the little matter of whether or not it constitutes false advertising.  Until it arrives we still don't know.

[The Stationmaster]

For information here is sketch of a basic arrangement of Gooch valvegear.  It is in many respects similar to Stephenson valvegear but a big clue to identifyimg one from the other is that the expansion link is the opposite way round (convex curve is to the rear in Gooch gear but to the front in Stephenson gear).    The valve gear works, i.e. changes direction of travel and varies the cut-off by means of the lifting crank moving the radius rod up or down inside the expansion link - down at the bottim for back gear, right at the top for full forward gear.  The upper eccentric is basically the for gear rod while the lower one is the back gear rod.

 

 

 

But note that the manner in which the lifting crank for the radius rod works on 'Bellerophon' is different because in its case the lifting crank is the opposite way round with its pivot ahead off the expansion link instead of to the rear of it.  The 'Bellerophon' lifting crank arrangement appears from photos to be correctly represented on the KR model but doesn't work - as is usually the case with virtually all models.    But that lack of movement is irrelevant as all it would do is move the radius rod  up or down inside the expansion link.

 

Interestingly the CAD view recently posted above shows the fire gear rod driven by an ecccentric which might at least make the expansion link worlk somewjhat nearer to correctly.  It is unclear if the other eccentric rod is also on an eccentric - which would be the ideal answer.  That takes us back to the EP where there does not appear to be an eccentric and the two rods appear to be moulded in one piece.  That could be a consequence of the model being an EP - in other words work remained to be complated on the eccentric rods and expansion link.   If such work remains it still wouldn't deliver the claims being made in respect of functional valvegear.  And what can be seen on the EP even allowing for damage in transit is also a long way short of it.  

 

Definitely a case of 'wait & see' but as  said previously if teh designer is able to pull it off and deliver fully functional valvegear it will be worth some really big applause.

Edited February 5, 2023 by The Stationmaster
Typos corrected (I hope)

[Edwardian]

14 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

For information here is sketch of a basic arrangement of Gooch valvegear.  It is in many respects similar to Stephenson valvegear but a big clue to identifyimg one from the other is that the expansion link is the opposite way round (convex curve is to the rear in Gooch gear but to the front in Stephenson gear).    The valve gear works, i.e. changes direction of travel and varies the cut-off by means of the lifting crank moving the radius rod up or down inside the expansion link - down at the bottim for back gear, right at the top for full forward gear.  The upper eccentric is basically the for gear rod while the lower one is the back gear rod.

 

 

 

But note that the manner in which the lifting crank for the radius rod works on 'Bellerophon' is different because in its case the lifting crank is the opposite way round with its pivot ahead off the expansion link instead of to the rear of it.  The 'Bellerophon' lifting crank arrangement appears from photos to be correctly represented on the KR model but doesn't work - as is usually the case with virtually models.    But that llack of movement is irrelevant as all it would do is move the radius rod  up or down inside the expansion link.

 

Interesting the CAf view recently posyred above shows r the fire gear rod driven by an ecccentric which might at least make the expansion link worlk somewjhat nearer to correc tly.  It is unclear if the other eccentric rod is also on an eccentric - which would be the ideal answer.  That takes us back to the EP where there does not appear to be an eccentric and the two rods appear to be moulded in one piece.  That could be a consequence of the model being an EP - in other words work remained to be complated on the eccentric rods and expansion link.   If such work remains it still wouldn't deliver the claims being made in respect of functional valvegear.  And what can be seen on the EP even allowing for damage in transit is also a long way short of it.  

 

Definitely a case of 'wait & see' but as  said previously if teh designer is able to pull it off and deliver fully functional valvegear it will be worth some really big applause.

 

Right, so the thing I've been calling the central crank is the expansion link.

 

The expansion link is not present on the EP, but is shown on the CAD render.

 

I would guess, therefore, as I've said, that the eccentric rods will work, perhaps with a protoypical motion, perhaps not, but the CAD shows no intention to connect the expaansion link to the lifting link and radius rod, so these parts could never move as matters appear to stand.

 

While we will have to wait and see, working eccentric rods but static lifting link and radius and valve rods would fall significantly short of claims that all the complex valve gear is fully working. 

 

 

[john new]

On 03/02/2023 at 23:17, Edwardian said:

 

Right, so the thing I've been calling the central crank is the expansion link.

 

The expansion link is not present on the EP, but is shown on the CAD render.

 

I would guess, therefore, as I've said, that the eccentric rods will work, perhaps with a protoypical motion, perhaps not, but the CAD shows no intention to connect the expaansion link to the lifting link and radius rod, so these parts could never move as matters appear to stand.

 

While we will have to wait and see, working eccentric rods but static lifting link and radius and valve rods would fall significantly short of claims that all the complex valve gear is fully working. 

 

 

Concur; however, given size and viewing distance personally I would be happy with a static radius rod as I doubt you would see much motion even if it moved. Conversely the two eccentric rods I think would be visible as movements and therefore need two separated pieces with a waggling expansion link, albeit set in mid gear for practicality. Watch/clock making tolerances yes but not all mechanical watches and clocks are expensive.

 

Edited February 5, 2023 by john new
Added clocks

[Bluebell Model Railway]

Email update on this model this morning looks like a second prototype.

 

Again information and transparency not forthcoming on what's been changed or anything like that.. so anyone's guess....but looks.more in one piece than the previous.

It's still missing bits of the valve gear... So 😅 yea it works sort of..

 

Plus various other updates coming in the next few weeks apparently... 

Edited May 30, 2023 by Bluebell Model Railway

[Mel_H]

This video has been posted, although it's hard to make out what's happening with the valve gear, a rolling road would have been better. KR Models has put out a newsletter which says: "During the design process, we had to make -- the infamous Stevenson-Gooch Valve Gear work in miniature. 

"This valve gear they threw at us, the Stevenson-Gooch valve gear, is known as the most complex valve contraption ever seen in the model railway world. 

"Through hours upon hours of solid graft, research, and unflappable dedication, we absolutely smashed it! It runs very smooth, with the motion just mesmerizing. 

"We have brought Bellerophon to life, complete with the mind-blowing Stevenson-Gooch valve gear. 

"Want to see the results? 

"Take a look at the newest sample our factory has developed... 

"We are so pleased just how good it has turned out." It is still taking orders (from £133.33 upwards) here https://krmodels.net/product/bellerophon-oo/

 

 

 

[AY Mod]

5 minutes ago, Bluebell Model Railway said:

looks.more in one piece than the previous.

 

I was rather hoping for more pieces, connected and moving.

 

Are there any pictures?

[AY Mod]

4 minutes ago, Mel_H said:

This video has been posted,

 

It looks like the video previously seen.

 

Edit - yes; from 5 months ago.

Edited May 30, 2023 by AY Mod

[Bluebell Model Railway]

3 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

I was rather hoping for more pieces, connected and moving.

 

Are there any pictures?

 There are 4 photos apart from a different cab everything looks about the same as the previous.. the video above is 5 months old and viewing this amazing valve gear they keep saying is almost impossible.

[AY Mod]

3 minutes ago, Bluebell Model Railway said:

everything looks about the same as the previous

 

From those; it's very definitely still a collection of unconnected parts.

 

 

Aside from the cab it looks the same as before to me.

 

 

I want to want one; but I don't yet.

[NHY 581]

Nope, not convinced......far from it.......in fact......irrespective of what KRM say and post, I will wait to see a production model as their pre production publicity material is not in anyway encouraging. 

 

Rob

 

 

[NHY 581]

54 minutes ago, Mel_H said:

KR Models has put out a newsletter which says: "During the design process, we had to make -- the infamous Stevenson-Gooch Valve Gear work in miniature. 

"This valve gear they threw at us, the Stevenson-Gooch valve gear, is known as the most complex valve contraption ever seen in the model railway world. 

"Through hours upon hours of solid graft, research, and unflappable dedication, we absolutely smashed it! It runs very smooth, with the motion just mesmerizing. 

"We have brought Bellerophon to life, complete with the mind-blowing Stevenson-Gooch valve gear. 

"Want to see the results? 

"Take a look at the newest sample our factory has developed... 

"We are so pleased just how good it has turned out." It is still taking orders 

 

 

 

As an aside this reads badly..........It smacks of  a poor translation direct from the factory which has gone unchecked, prior to sending out to customers. Note the emphasis on trying to convince us that the valve gear is very tricky to make work in prototypical fashion......

 

I cannot see Rapido or Accurascale ( for example ) being happy to distribute that type of communique. 

 

 

 

Rob

 

 

[GWR-fan]

I cannot understand why so many own goals.  Is it the factory or the manufacturer or the attitude?  It seems that everything falls on deaf ears.

[Edwardian]

May Newsletter:

 

During the design process, we had to make the infamous Stevenson-Gooch Valve Gear work in miniature ... Through hours upon hours of solid graft, research, and unflappable dedication, we absolutely smashed it! It runs very smooth, with the motion just mesmerizing .... We have brought Bellerophon to life, complete with the mind-blowing Stevenson-Gooch valve gear.

 

You see, I would say that, with these words, there is nothing to qualify previous statements that the valve gear will be fully working, rather a fully working set of valve gear is implied. I mean the "Stevenson [sic]-Gooch" valve gear must surely be taken to mean all of said valve gear, or at least its visible extent on the outside of the loco, not merely a part thereof, and that the working motion achieved by the model is prototypical. I fear here that KR is leaving itself very little wriggle room here with these claims.

 

Also shown in the Newsletter are pictures of "the newest sample our factory has developed".

 

Now those words might encourage the idea that further development has taken place since the last pictures and the video shown, and that this is a new sample. The "newest sample", however, might equally be construed as referring to the sample already seen because there isn't a newer one! If so, the Newsletter is here not really giving us news. 

 

So is this a new sample?

 

Well, there is no video linked in the Newsletter (that I have spotted) and the pictures are all, unhelpfully, at a downward angle, obscuring the vital centre section where everything must join up if it is to work properly and fully.  From what I can tell, as others have said, the parts still look unconnected and, indeed, this does not look like an updated sample at all as regards matters below the footplate. If there have been changes, the photographs fail to celebrate them. 

 

 

What are we to make of this?

 

Well I, we, were, I recall, told that further development would take place and that the valve gear would be fully working, and the May Newsletter can only be taken as signalling the fact that KR has now triumphantly concluded its development. But does it work and has, in fact, anything changed? .

 

To summarise the situation we were critiquing previously (and we had the benefit of the video clip to do that), only part of the valve gear was working, though not in a prototypical motion, while part of it remained static, and seemed intended to be so. Has that changed?

 

So far as I can tell from these most recent shots, nothing has changed.

 

 

[woodenhead]

10 minutes ago, NHY 581 said:

 

 

As an aside this reads badly..........It smacks of  a poor translation direct from the factory which has gone unchecked, prior to sending out to customers. Note the emphasis on trying to convince us that the valve gear is very tricky to make work in prototypical fashion......

 

I cannot see Rapido or Accurascale ( for example ) being happy to distribute that type of communique. 

 

Rob

 

 

Rapido Canada might make such bold statements, but it would be in video form and have clear evidence to back it up including pointy stick to focus eyes on those claims.

[JSpencer]

If it cannot be made to work, it would be far more honest just to say "Sorry we tried to get it to work and make it solid an reliable but in the end, we used a static representation".

I don't think people would be that unhappy over it.

 

Instead we are squinting our eyes at something wishing to see this lovely motion in action and failing to see anything.

 

On the bright side, the mail ended giving us an opportunity to vote between 3 or 6 month monthly payment options replacing the old 12 month one. I suppose next month we'll get to vote between credit card or paypal.

[The Stationmaster]

Sorry but having enlarged a snip out of that video (which I suspect is probably an earlier one anyway) the valvegear is no more working now than it was previously.  But that might be down to it being an old video?  However looking at their 'new' photos and doing a bit of enlarging and lightening it appears that the radius rod and valve rod are still a one piece plastic moulding and although it is not so clear it also looks as if the eccentric rods are also still a one piece plastic moulding.

 

KR appear to be totally confused (or just plain not bothered?) about the fact that Stephenson gear (used on umpteen engines the world over) and Gooch gear are different even tho' the difference is minimal (the expansion link is the opposite way round).   However 'complicated' they might be finding it the fact that working Gooch valvegear has been previously modelled on an r-t-r HO engine seems still to elude them.

 

While some of this might be down to their seeming problems in communicating clearly in written English the simple fact remains that from what we are seeing now there appears to have been no advance at all in producing a valvegear which actually makes the valve rod move or even the eccentric rods work as they should.  

Edited May 30, 2023 by The Stationmaster

[Darius43]

Reading KR Models latest newsletter, one word comes to mind: hubris.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

[No Decorum]

1 hour ago, AY Mod said:

 

I want to want one; but I don't yet.

 

Gosh, that is so well put! I’ll wait for the actual model to appear.

[stewartingram]

Or due to its "complexity" they have only modelled it on one side?

[Eddie the dog]

Perhaps the other side of the model is fully working valve gear 🙄

[Eddie the dog]

Damn, posted the same time !

Really FELL for that one

[Ian Hargrave]

5 minutes ago, No Decorum said:

Gosh, that is so well put! I’ll wait for the actual model to appear.

Which is the obvious conclusion to reach. 

[woodenhead]

And if they sell out on pre-order there will always be the second run, a two pack BR lined express maroon and BR Blue

[Edwardian]

41 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Sorry but having enlarged a snip out of that video (which I suspect is probably an earlier one anyway) the valvegear is no more working now than it was previously.  But that might be down to it being an old video?

 

 

I believe this is the old video we previously saw and its title refers to the first EP. Perhaps the only EP, but not a second or new EP!

 

 

As we see, the only parts that do move are the eccentric rods (if I remember the name correctly - the two black rods off the rear axle), which as you pointed out some time ago, appear to be set at a fixed angle. This means they move backwards and forwards slightly, but cannot replicate the distinctive scissoring motion they should exhibit. As we've noted, they are not connected to the rest of the valve gear, none of which moves at all. 

 

I'd encourage anyone invested in this project, to compare the video above with the clip below, which clearly shows what should be happening (see 2.50 and 5.10):

 

 

I think you have made the point before that KR might have struggled with Bellerophon's long spindly valve rod.

 

Of course the eccentric rods cannot be made to scissor unless they are connected to their rocking crank. And without that, ultimately there can be no movement of the valve rod.

 

If the valve rod ultimately defeated KR, however, one option might be to leave it unconnected and still model the eccentric rods as working correctly. As their size and distinctive scissoring motion makes them the most noticeable element of the motion while moving, many might find having these work properly would be enough, albeit still less than advertised. 

 

Edited May 30, 2023 by Edwardian
spelling