Mark 2b, By Accurascale and IRM!

[big jim]

1 hour ago, Chrisjh said:

Be good if we could know the username so we can all be better aware

Theres a whole thread about Mr Cann and his alias’ here, the thread title is one of his original names but there have been about 4 more since! 

 

[Chrisjh]

Many thanks Jim 

[younGGuns7]

Two questions 1- would these beauties run behind any other WR Hydraulics other than Westerns? 2 - what’s the best book to get more knowledge for the late 70s as to what carriages run on the WR obviously there will be inter regional stuff - but looking for info on formations etc TIA

[stovepipe]

1 hour ago, younGGuns7 said:

Two questions 1- would these beauties run behind any other WR Hydraulics other than Westerns? 2 - what’s the best book to get more knowledge for the late 70s as to what carriages run on the WR obviously there will be inter regional stuff - but looking for info on formations etc TIA

No, only the Westerns (and not all of them) were fitted with the necessary equipment to operate train air brakes.

 

The BR Coaching Stock group on groups.io has much information on formations used on all regions.

[Flood]

16 hours ago, younGGuns7 said:

Two questions 1- would these beauties run behind any other WR Hydraulics other than Westerns? 2 - what’s the best book to get more knowledge for the late 70s as to what carriages run on the WR obviously there will be inter regional stuff - but looking for info on formations etc TIA

Only the Westerns had train air brakes so no other hydraulics. (beaten to it by @stovepipe)

 

Buying the RCTS Coaching Stock book from 1978 or the Platform 5 Coaching Stock Pocket Book from 1979 will give you the allocation details by Region. Most of the information I have gleaned are from photos, another good source is Robert Carroll's Coaching Stock forum which has a considerable number of the Passenger Marshalling booklets on line. https://brcoachingstock.groups.io/g/main

 

Waterloo - Exeter services had Mk2A and Mk2B stock from May 1978. The Paddington - Worcester/Hereford services were Mk2A and Mk2B from May 1976 to May 1979. The Paddington - Birmingham services were Mk2A and Mk2B from May 1976 into the 1980s. The Plymouth - Edinburgh used Western Region Mk2A and Mk2B stock from May 1976 until May 1979. The Leeds - Penzance used Western Region Mk2A and Mk2B stock from October 1976 until May 1980. Air-con stock started to take-over the Paddington - Penzance services from October 1976 and by May 1977 all the Penzance, Plymouth and Paignton services were booked air-con although pressure vent coaches were used as individual replacements.

 

The Liverpool - Penzance was Midland Region stock so no Mk2B TSO or BFK coaches, but could have had a Mk2B FK, and the Leeds - Paignton used Eastern Region stock so no Mk2B TSOs or BFKs but also could have had a Mk2B FK. The Manchester - Plymouth still used Mk1s into 1980.

Edited May 4 by Flood
Additional information

[matchmaker]

12 hours ago, stovepipe said:

No, only the Westerns (and not all of them) were fitted with the necessary equipment to operate train air brakes.

 

The BR Coaching Stock group on groups.io has much information on formations used on all regions.

One of the reasons for the relatively early demise of the Westerns was their inability to power aircon stock as it proved impossible to fit them with ETS.

[Colin_McLeod]

On 04/05/2024 at 09:29, matchmaker said:

One of the reasons for the relatively early demise of the Westerns was their inability to power aircon stock as it proved impossible to fit them with ETS.

 

Slightly OT but I'm curious as to why the concept of the generator  van was not common on BR as it has been in Ireland for decades, NIR, CIE and RPSI.

[mevaman1]

I photographed WCRC Mk 2C BSK 35508 at Par yesterday.  It matched the accompanying Mk 1 for colour.  To me it appears darker than the Accurascale 2B models.

Edited May 6 by mevaman1
Typo

[Bucoops]

29 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

Slightly OT but I'm curious as to why the concept of the generator  van was not common on BR as it has been in Ireland for decades, NIR, CIE and RPSI.

Wild guess - platform length?

[derekdoestrains]

2 hours ago, Bucoops said:

Wild guess - platform length?

I guess with parcels and goods still being a thing then having to add a second brake to the set wouldn’t appeal.

[cairnsroadworks]

On 11/04/2024 at 17:38, Flood said:

So last Friday I decided that I was going to have another set of NSE coaches but this time it would be a full 9 coach Waterloo - Exeter set. Having looked through one of my friend's old spotting books I decided on a rake and then noted which build batch the TSOT came from.

 

For those slightly interested 118 Mk2C TSOs were built, of which the first 64 (5498 to 5561) had the style of toilet windows used in the Mk2, Mk2A and Mk2B builds. The remainder had toilet windows shorter in height so a vent could be placed above on one side, this is the style that Accurascale will be modelling.

 

The TSOT in the rake was 6503, which was originally 5510 so came from the first batch. Time, therefore, to start chomping away at an Accurascale Mk2B TSO to make an early style Mk2C TSOT.

 

First of all the roof vents were removed and 5 thou sheet used to make the access hatch on the roof. The breather pipe at that end was also moved about 2mm to fit in the new hatch. There is also an additional circular plate at that end, which is just off the centre line (see later post on next page).

 

The earliest Mk2C TSOs had two different style of roof vents before Roevac vents were finally decided upon, which were subsequently used on the air-conditioned Mk2 stock and the loco hauled Mk3 stock. The first vent style used is described in British Rail Mark 2 Coaches as a 'G' vent, the next vent tried being a 'GM' vent. I assume these were G modified as they were very similar to a 'G' vent but shorter in height. Now a GM vent is near enough the same as an English Electric loco cab roof vent so I made up six of these (from Shawplan) and then added 20 thou to increase the height, in order to simulate G vents. Most sane people probably wouldn't even care.

 

These were then added to the roof and left to dry.

 

I then turned to the interior and cut out one bay of seats and added a counter.

 

The roof was then primered, Archer's rivets were added to the edges of the roof hatch and then primered again. The small handles on the hatch were easier than expected (when a brand new drill bit is used).

 

The screen between the counter area and the seating was made and painted and the rest of the interior also painted.  I could have smoothed things up a bit but more on that later.

 

So all the basic work had been done. A blast with Halfords matt black sorted the roof, a blanking screen for the window behind the counter and a strip stating Buffet for the window opposite, followed by a red stripe and a quick renumber and we have the below:

 

 

 

 

As for tidying up the interior wall before painting, you can't even see the counter let alone what the wall looks like!

 

All in all it took just under a week and I'm very happy with the result. Oh, and I've just straightened that footstep shown in the last photo.

 

Now, should it really be in this thread or the Mk2C one?

Very late to this but thank you, as this has explained my confusion around the toilet windows on 5505 at least as I’m trying to model a club train rake with the regional railways mark 2B and 2C’s dotted in, but struggling to find decent reference pics. Well any reference pics that I can read the numbers from!

[cairnsroadworks]

 

people might be interested in the above rake. I’m doing a model of 37046 and found this pic. It’s the only time I’ve seen a mixed transpennine/regional railways mk2B/C rake, rather than the mk2B/C being added into a mainly mk2A rake. Does anyone on here knows anything about it, has the numbers etc please? I’m pretty certain the first coach is 5453 in debranded transpennine with the executive light grey bottom half but the others look to be regional railways. 

[brushman47544]

4 hours ago, cairnsroadworks said:

 

people might be interested in the above rake. I’m doing a model of 37046 and found this pic. It’s the only time I’ve seen a mixed transpennine/regional railways mk2B/C rake, rather than the mk2B/C being added into a mainly mk2A rake. Does anyone on here knows anything about it, has the numbers etc please? I’m pretty certain the first coach is 5453 in debranded transpennine with the executive light grey bottom half but the others look to be regional railways. 

 

To me the light grey could just be dirtier on the first coach, there's so little difference. The other colours look the same.

[cairnsroadworks]

55 minutes ago, brushman47544 said:

 

To me the light grey could just be dirtier on the first coach, there's so little difference. The other colours look the same.

The lack of branding and orange stripe gives it away as an unbranded TP one. As does this picture… but thanks anyways. It’s more the running numbers I’m after. The 2nd coach appears to be a 2C looking at the roof vents. 

 

[GordonC]

1 hour ago, brushman47544 said:

 

To me the light grey could just be dirtier on the first coach, there's so little difference. The other colours look the same.

 

I'm not sure they are actually. Its very late for an ex-TP coach to be lingering, but look at the depth of the cantrail light stripe before the dark blue band compared to the other coaches ... totally different! Maybe the lack of orange cantrail stripe and it being light grey instead makes a difference, but the difference looks more than that

[Flood]

3 hours ago, cairnsroadworks said:

The lack of branding and orange stripe gives it away as an unbranded TP one. As does this picture… but thanks anyways. It’s more the running numbers I’m after. The 2nd coach appears to be a 2C looking at the roof vents. 

 

Thanks to @Bob Reid for pointing out my error. The coach above is a Mk2B with scallop roof vents, the second coach in 37046's rake, as you correctly stated, is a Mk2C.

 

The first and third coaches in the 37046 photo are Mk2B with their scallop vents. The fourth coach seems to have a fairly long brake section with low, flat Roevac vents so may well be Mk2C BSO 9458, The fifth coach looks to be another Mk2C with either G or GM vents and the last coach is not possible to identify. See also the allocations listed below.

 

Another clue is the number of vents. Mk2B TSO coaches had 8 vents on the roof (4 normally visible per side), Mk2C TSO coaches had only 6 vents on the roof (3 visible per side).

 

The 1993 Platform 5 Combined, dated January 1993, states the following:

27 Mk2A TSO coaches in Regional Railways livery based between Liverpool Edge Hill and Derby Etches Park.

Mk2B TSO 5453, 5463, 5491 in Regional Railways livery (they wouldn't have distinguised the debranded Trans-Pennine)

Mk2C TSO 5505, 5554, 5614 in Regional Railways livery. G vents for 5505, GM vents for 5554 and Roevac vents (and smaller toilet windows) for 5614.

Mk2C BSO 9458 in Regional Railways livery. Roevac vents (and smaller toilet windows).

Mk2C BFK 17118 in Regional Railways livery. GM vents.

Mk2A BSK 35500, 35510 in Regional Railways livery.

Mk2C BSK 35506, 35507, 35508, 35509 and 35511 in Regional Railways livery. 35506, 35507 and 35508 GM vents. 35509 and 35511 Roevac vents (and smaller toilet windows).

Edited May 7 by Flood
Correctly put in my place by Bob!

[Bob Reid]

1 hour ago, Flood said:

That's a Mk2B with those scallop roof vents. Used on late build Mk1 coaches as well as the Mk2, Mk2A and Mk2B builds.

 

The Mk2C G and GM vents were flat topped with the end faces being angled down. See the photo of 35508 from @mevaman1 further up the page. That has GM vents, the lower of the two G vent types. The second coach in the photo of 37046 is a Mk2C with the higher G vents used on the first batch of TSO coaches. The first and third coaches in that photo are Mk2B with their scallop vents. The fourth coach seems to have a fairly long brake section with low, flat Roevac vents so may well be Mk2C BSO 9458, The fifth coach looks to be another Mk2C with either G or GM vents and the last coach is not possible to identify. See also the allocations listed below.

 

Another clue is the number of vents. Mk2B TSO coaches had 8 vents on the roof (4 normally visible per side), Mk2C TSO coaches had only 6 vents on the roof (3 visible per side).

 

The 1993 Platform 5 Combined, dated January 1993, states the following:

27 Mk2A TSO coaches in Regional Railways livery based between Liverpool Edge Hill and Derby Etches Park.

Mk2B TSO 5453, 5463, 5491 in Regional Railways livery (they wouldn't have distinguised the debranded Trans-Pennine)

Mk2C TSO 5505, 5554, 5614 in Regional Railways livery. G vents for 5505, GM vents for 5554 and Roevac vents (and smaller toilet windows) for 5614.

Mk2C BSO 9458 in Regional Railways livery. Roevac vents (and smaller toilet windows).

Mk2C BFK 17118 in Regional Railways livery. GM vents.

Mk2A BSK 35500, 35510 in Regional Railways livery.

Mk2C BSK 35506, 35507, 35508, 35509 and 35511 in Regional Railways livery. 35506, 35507 and 35508 GM vents. 35509 and 35511 Roevac vents (and smaller toilet windows).

 

9 hours ago, cairnsroadworks said:

 

people might be interested in the above rake. I’m doing a model of 37046 and found this pic. It’s the only time I’ve seen a mixed transpennine/regional railways mk2B/C rake, rather than the mk2B/C being added into a mainly mk2A rake. Does anyone on here knows anything about it, has the numbers etc please? I’m pretty certain the first coach is 5453 in debranded transpennine with the executive light grey bottom half but the others look to be regional railways. 

 

It's the second coach here Graham, with G/GM Vents as you say! (I hadn't read the first time round).

 

Photo courtesy of AJF1

 

Have a look at it in its largest size.  P.s. Those later scalloped vents go way back before Mk1's thanks to the original (without the scallop) from Wolverton being used on late build LMS Stock.

 

Bob.

 

Edited May 7 by Bob Reid
clarified the p.s. bit!

[Bob Reid]

I don't think it was an error Graham, sorry - I just hadn't read your post properly :) Since corrected!

 

Bob.

[Flood]

Just now, Bob Reid said:

I don't think it was an error Graham, sorry - I just hadn't read your post properly :) Since corrected!

 

Bob.

That's ok. I didn't relate to the photos correctly myself!

[cairnsroadworks]

3 hours ago, Flood said:

Thanks to @Bob Reid for pointing out my error. The coach above is a Mk2B with scallop roof vents, the second coach in 37046's rake, as you correctly stated, is a Mk2C.

 

The first and third coaches in the 37046 photo are Mk2B with their scallop vents. The fourth coach seems to have a fairly long brake section with low, flat Roevac vents so may well be Mk2C BSO 9458, The fifth coach looks to be another Mk2C with either G or GM vents and the last coach is not possible to identify. See also the allocations listed below.

 

Another clue is the number of vents. Mk2B TSO coaches had 8 vents on the roof (4 normally visible per side), Mk2C TSO coaches had only 6 vents on the roof (3 visible per side).

 

The 1993 Platform 5 Combined, dated January 1993, states the following:

27 Mk2A TSO coaches in Regional Railways livery based between Liverpool Edge Hill and Derby Etches Park.

Mk2B TSO 5453, 5463, 5491 in Regional Railways livery (they wouldn't have distinguised the debranded Trans-Pennine)

Mk2C TSO 5505, 5554, 5614 in Regional Railways livery. G vents for 5505, GM vents for 5554 and Roevac vents (and smaller toilet windows) for 5614.

Mk2C BSO 9458 in Regional Railways livery. Roevac vents (and smaller toilet windows).

Mk2C BFK 17118 in Regional Railways livery. GM vents.

Mk2A BSK 35500, 35510 in Regional Railways livery.

Mk2C BSK 35506, 35507, 35508, 35509 and 35511 in Regional Railways livery. 35506, 35507 and 35508 GM vents. 35509 and 35511 Roevac vents (and smaller toilet windows).

Wow thanks so much again. I really appreciate your help. The list is especially helpful. I haven’t found a single picture of a regional railways mk2B or 2C close up anywhere. I want to check the roof colour as I’m pretty sure the mk2A’s were all “stock roof grey”

even in RR. 

[adb968008]

Does this help ?

 

Salford Crescent

 

i seem to recall the roofs being repainted on the RR stock.

 

lets not forget when they arrived, they were a hotpotch of ex-Scotrail and NSE stock before repaint.

Moses Gate, unmistakably 37430 Cwmbran

 

I seem to recall the NSE stock roof being a similar colour, and the NSE stock in general being in better nick.

 

Edited May 8 by adb968008

[cairnsroadworks]

17 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Does this help ?

 

Salford Crescent

 

i seem to recall the roofs being repainted on the RR stock.

 

lets not forget when they arrived, they were a hotpotch of ex-Scotrail and NSE stock before repaint.

Moses Gate, unmistakably 37430 Cwmbran

 

I seem to recall the NSE stock roof being a similar colour, and the NSE stock in general being in better nick.

 

Cheers. Certainly looks like stock roof grey. I used to froth over the stock back in the 90s and built up a lovely fleet of SE Flushglazed RR coaches but alas the passage of time has made me forget what colour the roofs were. I’m pretty sure they weren’t black on the RR ones, but I’d love to know definitively. 

[adb968008]

Heres a good one showing the transition from NSE to Regional Railways in all 3 steps..
 

flickr url not mine.

 

[matchmaker]

On 06/05/2024 at 11:59, Colin_McLeod said:

 

Slightly OT but I'm curious as to why the concept of the generator  van was not common on BR as it has been in Ireland for decades, NIR, CIE and RPSI.

I'm not sure. ETHELs were the best known on BR. However, BRs fleet of ETS fitted locos was growing rapidly. The 50s were surplus, having been replaced on the WCML by electrics, had ETS (from new) and also had 100mph capability instead of the 90mph of the Westerns.

[cairnsroadworks]

3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Heres a good one showing the transition from NSE to Regional Railways in all 3 steps..
 

flickr url not mine.

 

Cracking that. 9458 defo looks like a blue tinge to the roof 😂