KR Models to make SR Class 4DD

[adb968008]

59 minutes ago, Mike Buckner said:

 

One weekend I conducted an experiment.

Set up an oval with spotlessly clean track.

Ran a number of different trains, each for several hours, over 3 days.

Every train was hauled by a loco which had 2 tyres on on side, and no tyres on the other side.

In every case, locos were placed so that the tyres were on the outer rail and the inner rail carried all-metal wheels.

At the end of the experiment, I got out a magnifying glass to inspect the track.

In fact the magnifying glass was unnecessary. I could see the difference with the naked eye.

Both rails had some occasional small black spots.

The outer rail had an additional feature, absent on the inner rail, which was a continuous thin smear. It looked like a very thin very fine oily deposit, and the whole outer rail was covered in it.

 

What locos did you use, that only had tyres on one side ?

 

Are you saying by running locos with tyres on one side that you struck a new source of oil that could help solve the energy crisis ?..

 

Is it possible your loco may have been slightly over lubricated ?

 

My track gets dust on it… with or without running anything. Hence I need to clean it after a prolonged period of non-use, even if its spotless. That dust with low voltage electricity can react on the track surface.

 

Running Hornby/Lima locos of the 1980’s is hardly a fair comparison to the quite refined tyres used today… I think many were justifiably tainted by the rubber bands of the past and are somewhat scared to try it again.

 

However I would say substituting weight, for tyres actually increases the cost of a model.. weight costs money, in metal, shipping, mazak rot and of course when it hits a floor and damages the model. Tyres can corrode/wear out but dont half improve the performance of the model…

 

dirt from a tyre I found was a result of the wheel picking up the dirt from elsewhere, it is afterall an abrasive like your track cleaner, compounding that dirt into a lump until it falls off…

 

tyre-less locos will simply be mulching track dirt, that doesnt mean it doesnt exist…  dirt will still sit on your track eroding performance until you eventually clean it.. Thats why they need weight to avoid slipping on it, even if it looks spotless.

 

Edited November 29, 2022 by adb968008

[Mike Buckner]

1 hour ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

Did your experiment check whether this deposit helped or hindered either adhesion or conductivity?

 

Adhesion was fine - not adversely affected.  Conductivity was reduced - there was an increasing degree of stuttering (and an occasional stall) as the days wore on. I am unable to categorically scientifically state whether this was definitely caused mainly by the outer rail.

 

The locos were by Lima, Hornby (Margate) pancake types, and Hornby early 2000's (China) pancake types (Class 29).

 

I can vouch that the locos were not over-lubricated. I'm careful on this point, and the locos in question had not been serviced for some years.

The smear looked like a very thin very fine oily deposit - I'm not stating that it WAS an oily deposit.

 

 

Edited November 29, 2022 by Mike Buckner
Brain fart

[phil gollin]

.

 

There is only one solution . . . 

 

Magnehesian ! ! ! 

 

( Plus steel rails. ) 

 

After all, Hornby seem to like old time Tri-ang.

 

.

[cctransuk]

40 minutes ago, phil gollin said:

.

 

There is only one solution . . . 

 

Magnehesian ! ! ! 

 

( Plus steel rails. ) 

 

After all, Hornby seem to like old time Tri-ang.

 

.

 

Is this ehesian something new, or a re-hash of adhesion. 😄

 

CJI.

Edited November 29, 2022 by cctransuk

[Wickham Green too]

I had hessian wallpaper for a time - a real magnet for dust, that was ! 😄

[Nconsistent]

Back to the 4DD. Did anyone get some better pictures at Warley to settle the fishbelly question?

[Jenny Emily]

my video of all the EPs and samples including the 4DD - I had access to all four cars including the two with test shots of the glazing: 

 

 

Edited November 30, 2022 by Jenny Emily

[TheCoffeePot]

6 hours ago, Jenny Emily said:

my video of all the EPs and samples including the 4DD - I had access to all four cars including the two with test shots of the glazing: 

 

 

 

You can see the difference with the dark grey being the old EP and the light gray being the new EP. Model is looking improved but we'll see if the cab or "face" will get those curves and windows scaling spot on or not.

[Jenny Emily]

Incidentally, there only ever was one set of tooling despite what someone wrongly claimed earlier in this thread. The photos KR first shared was a test shot from partially finished tooling.
 

I learnt that as it is easy to remove metal from the moulds but not to put it back if you take too much off so at various points they do a test EP to better judge where the process is up to. That was what that original picture was of. The current EP as seen in the video is the same tooling but with more metal removed. 

[AY Mod]

27 minutes ago, Jenny Emily said:

That was what that original picture was of.

 

That is the problem when an image/s are circulated without any context; if a manufacturer says "this is what has been done so far, we are happy with x but not with y and this is what still needs to be done". Without that context people will reach their own conclusions and the damage is already done because of that lack of information.

[adb968008]

20 hours ago, Nconsistent said:

Back to the 4DD. Did anyone get some better pictures at Warley to settle the fishbelly question?

 

The roof detail is moulded, as is the carriage end detail. Indeed nearly all detail is moulded, except the end pipes (front/rear), horns and handrails.

The motor drives 1 bogie.

The original spec said 2 power cars, I've not seen anything suggesting a change, so assume its still the case.

 

£379.50 inc postage for a 4 car unit DCC ready.

 

it has a lot less detail and separate parts than leader sat next to it. (£185).

 

I come back to price, its really 2 locos and 2 coaches…, which maybe I might suggest breaks out as something like 2x £120 locos, and 2x £70 coaches.

For those who suggest new railroad toolings, I think this is a good idea what you get.

 

Compare this to Hornbys quite definitely refined VEP at £363 RRP which comes with tap/touch lighting, sprung buffers, 1 DCC chip.. but then has one “pod” motor bogie and its looking like lights are the optional extra.

Then theres the 3 car Class 159 £459 and the Heljan class 104 at the same price.

Units aren't cheap and its a tough amount to swallow.

However the pricing seems to reflect where they are each at.

 

of course KR are the only ones selling direct, the rest have trade margins built in.

 

 

 

Edited November 30, 2022 by adb968008

[Nconsistent]

Thanks Jenny for the excellent video report. I am impressed by the model, though I will wait to see a finished sample before diving into the wallet. I think the key for me will be how much prismatic effect there is in the glazing, as this was one of the most flush-glazed curved window designs ever; it was pure schoolboy pleasure to sit upstairs, face pressed against the window to watch the Kidbrook tunnel roof flashing by right overhead. Bonus question; Do the wired interior carriage connectors have a close coupling function? The gap looks very good on the straight.

[Jenny Emily]

4 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

That is the problem when an image/s are circulated without any context; if a manufacturer says "this is what has been done so far, we are happy with x but not with y and this is what still needs to be done". Without that context people will reach their own conclusions and the damage is already done because of that lack of information.

I would agree. I’m going off what I was told at Warley. 

[RFS]

I still have some concern over the front appearance due to the windows not having the deep corner radius that is so typical of this model, and indeed of 4SUBs in general. I did therefore send a message to KR Models asking whether this would be modified with the final model and got this response

 

"We thank you for your message. When we scaled down to the model the angle of curve may look less but its correct calculations for scale down."

 

I then replied with this image showing the difference, but did not get a further answer so will wait for the final model. 

 

 

 

 

 

[cctransuk]

19 minutes ago, RFS said:

I still have some concern over the front appearance due to the windows not having the deep corner radius that is so typical of this model, and indeed of 4SUBs in general. I did therefore send a message to KR Models asking whether this would be modified with the final model and got this response

 

"We thank you for your message. When we scaled down to the model the angle of curve may look less but its correct calculations for scale down."

 

I then replied with this image showing the difference, but did not get a further answer so will wait for the final model. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I would refer the Honourable Member to the notorious case of the Fell.

 

If KRM can justify to itself a model with sides from two different periods, they must surely have the ability to not see what is as plain as the nose on your face - or the fact that the whole front end of the 4DD, especially around the windows and upper corners, totally fails to reproduce the prototype.

 

Emperor's new clothes, again, methinks!

 

CJI.

[Colin_McLeod]

To correct those windows would, I believe, mean adding metal to the tool. As stated in Jenny's post this is not easy.

[Porcy Mane]

11 hours ago, RFS said:

"We thank you for your message. When we scaled down to the model the angle of curve may look less but its correct calculations for scale down."

 

If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, and etc., springs to mind.

[jonhall]

22 hours ago, RFS said:

I still have some concern over the front appearance due to the windows not having the deep corner radius that is so typical of this model, and indeed of 4SUBs in general. I did therefore send a message to KR Models asking whether this would be modified with the final model and got this response

 

"We thank you for your message. When we scaled down to the model the angle of curve may look less but its correct calculations for scale down."

 

I then replied with this image showing the difference, but did not get a further answer so will wait for the final model. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Were the jumpers on the two ends of each unit different? When I saw this comparison I thought the jumpers have moved from the middle out to under the window, but as I've attempted to look for a date, I notice that the two surviving coaches, both from 4002 are one of each arrangement?

 

jon

[RFS]

The picture is of unit 4001 under test following construction. This website defines the changes thus -

 

These units also had the first application of the 27-way control jumpers on unit ends, replacing the separate lighting and control jumpers of previous types of SR unit; this being provided at the centre of the cab below the route indicator, which was a roller blind type from new (originally with larger style numbers). 

 

Problems with mis-coupling the control jumpers led to them being moved to beneath the secondman’s observation light, leaving three small plates on the cab ends covering the earlier holes, these remaining visible on the units throughout their lives. Power jumpers were provided between units as in earlier designs.

 

Looks like the model represents the front end after the above changes were carried out, but I do not know when these took place. 

 

[cctransuk]

23 hours ago, RFS said:

I still have some concern over the front appearance due to the windows not having the deep corner radius that is so typical of this model, and indeed of 4SUBs in general. I did therefore send a message to KR Models asking whether this would be modified with the final model and got this response

 

"We thank you for your message. When we scaled down to the model the angle of curve may look less but its correct calculations for scale down."

 

I then replied with this image showing the difference, but did not get a further answer so will wait for the final model. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

JMHO, but the end problem stems from the sides not being tall enough before the roof radii commence.

 

Consequently, the roof eaves are not sharp enough, leaving them far too close to the (too sharp)  window corners.

 

The whole front end appears too squat, whereas - in reality - it's the sides that are too shallow and the roof too bulbous.

 

Whatever, it totally fails to convey the impression of a vehicle built to the limits of the loading gauge.

 

CJI.

[zoomer1979]

Another howler for KR. It's wrong and they won't admit it, there's a surprise.

Neil.

[GWR-fan]

It is highly likely that KR is relying entirely on the Chinese manufacturer to interpret the prototype from information provided to construct the CAD's.  Does KRM have the expertise to design the CAD information? Having possibly a limited budget,  KR is possibly "coerced" into accepting the Chinese manufacturer's efforts.  Of cause,  the manufacturer would still need the sign-off before they could commence a 3D print, an engineering prototype or even tooling.   Regardless,  the buck stops with KRM.

 

What would be helpful but not feasible due intellectual property rights,  is if KRM was able to provide info on models the Chinese manufacturer had made for other manufacturers so the customer could gauge the skill level of the company.

[jjb1970]

My experience of factories in China (admittedly for heavy industrial machinery like large diesel engines) is that they produce what the client has ordered in accordance with the agreed quality standard and acceptance criteria. If they do not do so then the client can go to court, contrary to popular opinion China is not a lawless state. Authoritarian, yes, totalitarian, perhaps, but it is not the wild west of business many want to present it as. Which is not to say there aren't bad businesses, but no country is free of bad businesses and shysters. In my experience there I found the companies I worked with punctilious in respecting contracts, though colleagues had bad experiences, overall I found it no worse than anywhere else and better than many places.

In the context of KR, there will be an agreement between KR and the factory, what is in that agreement is anyone's guess but the factory will work in accordance with whatever has been agreed and deliver what KR have ordered to whatever the agreed standard is.

[The Stationmaster]

7 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

My experience of factories in China (admittedly for heavy industrial machinery like large diesel engines) is that they produce what the client has ordered in accordance with the agreed quality standard and acceptance criteria. If they do not do so then the client can go to court, contrary to popular opinion China is not a lawless state. Authoritarian, yes, totalitarian, perhaps, but it is not the wild west of business many want to present it as. Which is not to say there aren't bad businesses, but no country is free of bad businesses and shysters. In my experience there I found the companies I worked with punctilious in respecting contracts, though colleagues had bad experiences, overall I found it no worse than anywhere else and better than many places.

In the context of KR, there will be an agreement between KR and the factory, what is in that agreement is anyone's guess but the factory will work in accordance with whatever has been agreed and deliver what KR have ordered to whatever the agreed standard is.

Exactly so.  But  with the big proviso that if the client sends them a variety of drawings and photos which don't exactly match each other (as is often the case, certainly so with various details on the Fell) with no exact specification of what is wanted and what is being paid for then the designer will have to make their own decisions and incorporate their own compromises.  And if the customer doesn't have the knowledge or hasn't done the research to a sufficient level they will end up accepting what they're given if the wider world of the 'net doesn't start shouting when it is shown the CADs etc .  And even if the wider world starts shouting things might not change because there aren't the funds in the project to pay for the necessary changes.

 

Some of the errors which have come out of. China - not just for KR - and sometimes linked to poor control of CAD versions in China (that happens even if it sounds incredible) can only be avoided by a lot of detail diligence when checking CADs and EPs.  If the commissioner hasn't got the knowledge, information, or even inclination, to control that situation and very carefully check CADs (and their version numbers) then the errors will run through to the finished product.  And at the end of it the factory or designer will have done what they have been contracted to do.

[jjb1970]

The key to any outsourcing is to be an informed customer. A lot of the issues with outsourcing or even just buying stuff stem from uninformed customers not knowing what they're buying. When I worked in a classification society I had all sorts of rants from shipowners about nefarious and incompetent shipyards, I'd estimate that in about 90% of those cases the shipyards had delivered what they were contracted to deliver - the problem was that owners thought they had ordered something when in reality they'd ordered something else. Consultancy is another classic for that, I'm not denying that there are shysters in the world of consulting and bad eggs that justify the negative stereotypes but in my experience when it goes wrong it's because the client gets the service they contracted for and then realizes they needed something else and expect their service provider to just pivot on a six pence and provide a completely different service. So I can see that successful model production depends on the buyer understanding the process and having sufficient knowledge of the prototype (or paying someone who does).

Edited December 28, 2022 by jjb1970