KR Models to make SR Class 4DD

[cctransuk]

2 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

.... the buyer understanding the process and having sufficient knowledge of the prototype (or paying someone who does).

 

This, IMHO, is the root cause of these c*ck-ups. KRM know what they wish to produce, but have nowhere near enough knowledge to get it right.

 

They rely on sources such as this group to point out errors, but won't pay an acknowledged expert to ensure that the design is correct before committing to production.

 

The problem with (free) criticism by knowledgeable amateurs is that it is necessary to (expensively) produce CADs / renders for publication - only to have to repeat the (expensive) process when avoidable errors are pointed out.

 

Repeat this process a couple of times and you have spent more capital than if you had employed someone who knew what they were doing, in the first place!

 

I can't help feeling that this saga has a lot to do with the characters of the principals; specifically, an inability to concede that expert knowledge is worth the cost.

 

Shame, really,

CJI.

[VIA185]

8 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

This, IMHO, is the root cause of these c*ck-ups. KRM know what they wish to produce, but have nowhere near enough knowledge to get it right.

 

They rely on sources such as this group to point out errors, but won't pay an acknowledged expert to ensure that the design is correct before committing to production.

 

The problem with (free) criticism by knowledgeable amateurs is that it is necessary to (expensively) produce CADs / renders for publication - only to have to repeat the (expensive) process when avoidable errors are pointed out.

 

Repeat this process a couple of times and you have spent more capital than if you had employed someone who knew what they were doing, in the first place!

 

I can't help feeling that this saga has a lot to do with the characters of the principals; specifically, an inability to concede that expert knowledge is worth the cost.

 

Shame, really,

CJI.

There used to be bits of a double-decker down the road from here, at the Northampton & Lamport Railway. I saw other bits of one at that museum that used to be at Coventry. I'm guessing that at least some of those cars must still exist so it ought to be possible to scan them. That way it must be a lot easier to get things right than working from drawings and photographs....... but probably more expensive. (CJL)

[newbryford]

10 minutes ago, VIA185 said:

There used to be bits of a double-decker down the road from here, at the Northampton & Lamport Railway. I saw other bits of one at that museum that used to be at Coventry. I'm guessing that at least some of those cars must still exist so it ought to be possible to scan them. That way it must be a lot easier to get things right than working from drawings and photographs....... but probably more expensive. (CJL)

 

One DMBT of 4002 is at Sellindge, Kent, the other is at the Northamptonshire Ironstone Railway Trust

[melmerby]

15 minutes ago, VIA185 said:

There used to be bits of a double-decker down the road from here, at the Northampton & Lamport Railway. I saw other bits of one at that museum that used to be at Coventry. I'm guessing that at least some of those cars must still exist so it ought to be possible to scan them. That way it must be a lot easier to get things right than working from drawings and photographs....... but probably more expensive. (CJL)

There are two DMBT extant, one at Northampton 13004 (ex unit 4001) and the other 13003 (also unit 4001) with the Bulleid 4DD group who are intending to also get the one from Northampton.

The only trailer left got cut in 1984.

Edited December 28, 2022 by melmerby

[Staffordshire]

As a modeller / enthusiast  who 'likes' facts/details to be right I understand all the comments.  

Of course we all want a product to be as good/accurate as possible,

 

But sometimes I do not understand the criticism of a Manufacturer/Company who is attempting

to enhance this hobby, by producing  an item which has not previously been available.

 

 Basically in my humble opinion,  some people just need to get a life !! 

[frobisher]

45 minutes ago, Staffordshire said:

As a modeller / enthusiast  who 'likes' facts/details to be right I understand all the comments.  

Of course we all want a product to be as good/accurate as possible,

 

But sometimes I do not understand the criticism of a Manufacturer/Company who is attempting

to enhance this hobby, by producing  an item which has not previously been available.

 

 Basically in my humble opinion,  some people just need to get a life !! 

 

At the core of this criticism though are the very avoidable mistakes that simple due diligence would have put in check.  With actual extant examples that could have been measured up etc (even if the resources weren't there to 3D scan them) this is even more unforgiveable.

 

But it looks like KR are building up a track record of working like this... :(

 

[GWR-fan]

4 hours ago, Staffordshire said:

...................................................................................  

Of course we all want a product to be as good/accurate as possible,

 

But sometimes I do not understand the criticism of a Manufacturer/Company who is attempting

to enhance this hobby, by producing  an item which has not previously been available.

 

 Basically in my humble opinion,  some people just need to get a life !! 

 

Look to the detail differences between the KRM Shay and the Fell.   The Shay looks to be a superb model obviously geared towards a discerning North American market.  Now examine the Fell and determine if the potentially dominant British market is less discerning and willing to accept a flawed model.

Edited December 29, 2022 by GWR-fan
Spelling

[jjb1970]

4 hours ago, Staffordshire said:

As a modeller / enthusiast  who 'likes' facts/details to be right I understand all the comments.  

Of course we all want a product to be as good/accurate as possible,

 

But sometimes I do not understand the criticism of a Manufacturer/Company who is attempting

to enhance this hobby, by producing  an item which has not previously been available.

 

 Basically in my humble opinion,  some people just need to get a life !! 

 

I am not a million miles away from this sentiment when it comes to the hobby. However, for me the difference between KR (and any others using crowdfunding or requiring up-front payment) and most manufacturers is they want people to pay up front, carry their risk and take it on trust that the resulting model will be good. If the Fell had been a regular retail release people could have made their own mind up whether or not they were satisfied and made an informed decision. If people are happy with it then go for it, it's not for me to tell anyone else what they should be happy with. If a company is asking customers to pay up-front and releases a bit of a lemon they really can't blame anyone but themselves if they face kick back. One of the problems with this business model is it removes some of the drivers to get it right and can incentivize a 'that'll do' approach as what's the point in really going the extra mile if the money is in? Longer term the incentive is that a business with a reputation for disappointing products is going to face difficulties going forward but if they're going from project to project they may see the immediate benefits from just getting a product out as outweighing the longer term risks of not making the effort to get it right.

[trevor7598]

On 26/12/2022 at 11:27, RFS said:

I still have some concern over the front appearance due to the windows not having the deep corner radius that is so typical of this model, and indeed of 4SUBs in general. I did therefore send a message to KR Models asking whether this would be modified with the final model and got this response

 

"We thank you for your message. When we scaled down to the model the angle of curve may look less but its correct calculations for scale down."

 

I then replied with this image showing the difference, but did not get a further answer so will wait for the final model. 

 

 

Yes, the cab windows need some more work to get the correct ' look '.

It could be argued that the cab front is the ' face ' of the unit, if that's not right, forget the rest.

 

On 26/12/2022 at 11:27, RFS said:

 

 

 

[Colin_McLeod]

3 hours ago, GWR-fan said:

 

Look to the detail differences between the KRM Shay and the Fell.   The Shay looks to be a superb model obviously geared towards a discerning North American market.  Now examine the Fell and determine if the potentially dominant British market is less discerning and willing to accept a flawed model.

 

But how accurate is the Shay?  North American modellers can answer that better than I.  Familarity with the detail of the prototype will influence how one views a model.

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

But how accurate is the Shay?  North American modellers can answer that better than I.  Familarity with the detail of the prototype will influence how one views a model.

If it looks like a Shay, waddles like a Shay and takes corners like a Shay, its a Shay!!

[The Stationmaster]

12 hours ago, Staffordshire said:

As a modeller / enthusiast  who 'likes' facts/details to be right I understand all the comments.  

Of course we all want a product to be as good/accurate as possible,

 

But sometimes I do not understand the criticism of a Manufacturer/Company who is attempting

to enhance this hobby, by producing  an item which has not previously been available.

 

 Basically in my humble opinion,  some people just need to get a life !! 

Simple problem - if 'somebody' produces a whatever and makes a hash of it (e.g a certain EM1 from not that many years ago) they take part of the market away from 'somebody else' who wants to do a proper job because the half-hearted attempt sits around and is bought by those who don't care if it's not a good job.  

 

In addition if a concern has to invest to produce models there is a strong incentive to do it properly and appeal to all of the potential market.  That incentive is not so strong when you are spending somebody else's money.  Equally if you pick a subject you don't really know solely on the basis of its quirkiness or the hope that the mainstream won't touch it you need to do a great deal of informed research, and take advice from those with some knowledge of the subject in order to help get it right.  If you're not prepared to do that - even when help is offered at no cost to you - you are likely to get it wrong - and queer the market for everybody else for a good few years to come.

 

Similarly if you make a deal with a designer or manufacturer who is prepared to load costs at the back end of the project - basically onto the manufacturing stage - it's a major temptarion to go into all sorts of things with little or no risk.  And that becomes even more tempting when you atre getting in the money well before you need to start spending it.  And if you can get into contact with the right people basically anybody can do it and you don't even have to create a properly registered and regulated trading company in the UK in order to do it.  At least with DJM there were some published accounts - of a sort.

Edited December 29, 2022 by The Stationmaster
typos

[AY Mod]

30 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

At least with DJM there were some published accounts - of a sort.

 

At least he came up with an intended features and specification list and told people what they were. 

[jjb1970]

For all his faults Dave Jones could oversee an excellent model when he put his mind to it. The Dapol Western is still an outstanding model. 

[The Stationmaster]

2 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

For all his faults Dave Jones could oversee an excellent model when he put his mind to it. The Dapol Western is still an outstanding model. 

But probably not unreasonable to add.   'When he was spending somebody else's money' (as with the D10XX).

[Colin_McLeod]

4 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

If it looks like a Shay, waddles like a Shay and takes corners like a Shay, its a Shay!!

 

LOL.

However, If it looks like a Fell...etc

 

 

 

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

But probably not unreasonable to add.   'When he was spending somebody else's money' (as with the D10XX).

 

DJM spends somebody elses money and does a good job.

 

KRM spends somebody else's money and fails to do a good job.

 

 

The inconsistency may be because  KRM did not have enough money, either his or somebody else's.

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, Colin_McLeod said:

The inconsistency may be because  KRM did not have enough money, either his or somebody else's.

 

....... or even much knowledge of the subject.

 

CJI.

[Colin_McLeod]

17 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

....... or even much knowledge of the subject.

 

CJI.

Hence previous posts re paying for expert advice which brings things back to how much money.

[Din]

There's also the small issue of the 4DD apparently having some minor variations according to some photographs, some of which have even been posted here in this thread.

 

So then the question becomes which one do you model? Do you model them all in different years? It's very difficult when you do have an EP/proof of concept model to machine out the bits needed/not needed so that becomes a difficult and expensive moment. 

 

The survivors dont also seem to be in the best of nick, and I rather suspect scanning isn't the be all and end all magic bullet some people think it is, hence why we still complain about things being "wrong" on models despite them being scanned, or extensive reference photographs taken.

 

It also continues to amuse me that the Fell is such a woeful disaster according to this forum... when they're planning a second run due to demand from other customers!

[melmerby]

2 minutes ago, Din said:

It also continues to amuse me that the Fell is such a woeful disaster according to this forum... when they're planning a second run due to demand from other customers!

Glass cabinet modellers?

[AY Mod]

2 minutes ago, Din said:

It also continues to amuse me that the Fell is such a woeful disaster according to this forum... when they're planning a second run due to demand from other customers!

 

Commercial 'success' of an item is not necessarily proportional to the level of accuracy. If you think it is please try and explain Hornby 37 and 47s to me.

[Din]

5 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

Commercial 'success' of an item is not necessarily proportional to the level of accuracy. If you think it is please try and explain Hornby 37 and 47s to me.

 

A good point, mind I think my old Lima 37's not bad...

[Bucoops]

24 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

Commercial 'success' of an item is not necessarily proportional to the level of accuracy. If you think it is please try and explain Hornby 37 and 47s to me.

 

And this

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/619153/hornby_r30043_class_57_3_57305_in_network_rail_yellow_railroad_plus_range/stockdetail

 

no attempt whatsoever to include any changes - such as the hoofing great Dellners...

[AY Mod]

1 minute ago, Bucoops said:

no attempt whatsoever to include any changes

 

Be fair; they did change some numbers.

[JSpencer]

1 hour ago, Din said:

There's also the small issue of the 4DD apparently having some minor variations according to some photographs, some of which have even been posted here in this thread.

 

I can live with minor variations not being present in this case. There might be a middle ground that just covers going from green to blue. Or maybe a detailing kit can plug the last minor gap.

The fell was trying to cover as built on one side and later profile on the other when they did not need to (unfortunately this was not the worst issue - see the Fell thread). Do I like the fell? It's different and I hope KR learned from it. The GT3 was far better so if they can at least get back to that standard and build on it that would be progress in the right direction.