KR Models to make SR Class 4DD

[Oldddudders]

That's us told!

[JDW]

Reading through some of the KR threads, I do think we need to be careful to make sure comments are directed properly (ie at the business or model rather than personally), though with small or 'one-man-band' companies that's always going to overlap. Criticising KR is pretty much criticising Keith and Michael. Criticising Hornby is criticising some nameless designer or team effort in a office. 

 

I did think the roof profile of the 4DD looks a bit off, I agree, and the front windows should have a bigger radius. And it's easy to argue that things that are as easy (relatively speaking) to get right as to get wrong should be right. On the other hand, I suspect a good number of purchasers won't be on here or be the connoisseurs for detail that many of us are. I'm not sure I fully understand why the Fell ended up quite so wrong on one side, and arguably it could/should have been right, but for many people who won't be looking at it alongside a picture of the real thing, it looks like a Fell, and is something unusual. Whether we agree or not, whether we like it or not, and whether it could have been better or not, it's satisfied a need. The 4DD looks slightly off, but if I'm honest, it looks close enough to me that I'd still buy one if I were in the market for one. The roof of the Hornby class 153 is generally said to be too flat, yet plenty of people have bought them (I've accumulated 8, plus a pair used as a basis for a 155).

 

Should things be correct from the start? Yes, arguably. But at the same time I think we have to accept that for lots of people, manufacturers and purchasers, 'close enough' is, well, close enough. 

[cctransuk]

5 minutes ago, JDW said:

Whether we agree or not, whether we like it or not, and whether it could have been better or not, it's satisfied a need. The 4DD looks slightly off, but if I'm honest, it looks close enough to me that I'd still buy one if I were in the market for one.

 

However, you miss the critical point!

 

Once the 'nearly, but not right' model of a niche subject has been produced, the chances of a 'correct' model being produced are vanishingly small.

 

So those who don't know / don't really care have a model, but those who do know and care do not.

 

CJI.

[bill_schmidt1]

21 minutes ago, JDW said:

Reading through some of the KR threads, I do think we need to be careful to make sure comments are directed properly (ie at the business or model rather than personally), though with small or 'one-man-band' companies that's always going to overlap. Criticising KR is pretty much criticising Keith and Michael. Criticising Hornby is criticising some nameless designer or team effort in a office. 

Sorry, I don't buy that one at all. Whether you criticise KR or Hornby or Bachman it doesn't matter if they are a one-man-band or 1000-band-man. What matters is whether the criticism is warranted or not and how it is dealt with.

[Phil Parker]

13 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

However, you miss the critical point!

 

And you miss the point that the decision to buy or not is @JDW's. If he is happy with his model, then that is fine. No-one elected you arbitor of what any of us is, or isn't allowed to buy.

 

[St. Simon]

1 hour ago, JDW said:

Criticising KR is pretty much criticising Keith and Michael. Criticising Hornby is criticising some nameless designer or team effort in an office. 

Hi,

 

I agree with the sentiment, but I think we should also be aware that whilst we think of Hornby, Bachmann, Dapol or Heljan as ‘nameless entities in an office’, they are also made up people trying their best to their job just like KR, Revolution or Accurascale, who also read this forum. Just because they don’t jump up and down saying they work for a model manufacturer in public doesn’t mean they don’t see what is said.
 

Having had people criticise my professional work on this forum, it can be disheartening. I know you can say that you shouldn’t take it to heart, but it’s hard not to.

 

So, whether you (speaking generally to the wider RMWeb community) criticise KR or Hornby on here, just be mindful the person responsible for the thing you are criticising maybe reading and structure it accordingly.

 

Simon

[JDW]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

 

However, you miss the critical point!

 

Once the 'nearly, but not right' model of a niche subject has been produced, the chances of a 'correct' model being produced are vanishingly small.

 

So those who don't know / don't really care have a model, but those who do know and care do not.

 

CJI.

 

52 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

And you miss the point that the decision to buy or not is @JDW's. If he is happy with his model, then that is fine. No-one elected you arbitor of what any of us is, or isn't allowed to buy.

 

 

I hadn't missed the point, just didn't want to get into a long rambling post that was trying to cover every possible angle. It's very valid I think to say that once one model has been produced, someone else might be less likely to (in the short or medium term at least). But at the same time, we could go round in circles for hours debating whether anyone else actually would have produced one! I do suspect, though, that the majority of purchasers probably won't know or care that, say, the radius of the cab windows is slightly out. They have "a 4DD" and they'll be happy with that.

 

And while there are the two parallel arguments of whether it's right to produce a model which isn't as correct as it could be, and whether it's right to buy the model and support that (thereby validating the choice to produce a less-than-correct model, as well as possibly depriving people of a more-correct one), I suspect that again so few people who buy will be in the know enough to be able to spot the flaws that it won't matter to them. They have a 4DD (or whatever). Certainly with oddballs like the Fell, I bet without reading a review, most people wouldn't know there was anything amiss, as very few will actually sit it next to a picture and study it.

 

Overlooking the actual choice to make it, I would imagine there are a lot of people whose outlook is to accept it as "it's better than I could make" and "the best I'm going to get at any point now or in the foreseeable future". Whether that justifies or outweighs producing something that is less correct than it could be takes us back to the same circular discussion though (and possibly even further off topic).

[Michael Hodgson]

On 03/01/2023 at 16:36, FranksLad said:

If everyone on here learned CAD, the market would be a glorious haven of models perfect in every detail……….

However as they won’t, sadly it’s a case of “best you’re gonna get until ya do”……

 

Learning CAD won't do that.  We' add have to learn how to work 3D printers and invest in them (presumabky they'd have have to be better than the cheapest printers on the market.

[Darius43]

I can’t help feeling that if more time and effort was devoted to modelling as opposed to criticising models people would be far happier.

 

When Keith/KR Models first appeared on the scene with the proposed GT3 model he was subject to some fairly unpleasant scrutiny with his background and integrity questioned, frequently in quite a rude way.  Granted that their proposal appeared shortly after the DJ Models collapse so (some) people were quite sceptical as to KR Models’ propriety.  
 

Consequently there appears to be a group here on RMWeb that appear to be determined to put the verbal boot in to KR Models (and anyone who appears to support them) whenever the opportunity arises.  To me, sucking the joy out of this hobby in this way is not a very laudable way to behave.

I have two GT3s, two Fells and nine Consett Ore Wagons and am happy with all of them despite reading the various threads describing their issues.  I have a 4DD on order and agree that the cab window corners are not sufficiently curved.  Nevertheless, like JDW, I expect to be happy with my 4DD when it arrives.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

 

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

 

And you miss the point that the decision to buy or not is @JDW's. If he is happy with his model, then that is fine. No-one elected you arbitor of what any of us is, or isn't allowed to buy.

 

 

Excuse me ?!?

 

Please point me to where, in my post, I suggested that it was NOT his decision to buy - or, for that matter- where I made any reference whatsoever to his buying decision rights.

 

What I DID refer to is the direct consequence of ANY manufacturer producing an inaccurate model of a niche subject. (Note - no reference to buying decision rights).

 

PLEASE, read what I post - not what you thought I posted.

 

CJI.

[GWR-fan]

So it would seem that if one is ignorant of any defects in the accuracy of a model then that model must be "accurate".  This is the philosophy that Hornby seemed to manufacture to a generation ago.  Have we not moved on since then?   What the majority of the newcomers to the market have shown is that a highly detailed accurate model is possible if the manufacturer takes due diligence in sourcing information on the prototype to be made.    A manufacturer who presents a less than accurate model these days is possibly cost cutting to maximise financial return or is too reliant on the contracted manufacturer's expertise and their interpretation of the information received.    Simply being an obscure model that no other manufacturer will touch is no excuse for less than diligent ground work prior to manufacturing commencing.

[Colin_McLeod]

3 hours ago, KR Models said:

The personal attacks on my character and my personal life did leave a bad taste for being on here.  The faceless keyboard trolls are the main problem.  Most are not even potential customers.  I get attacked and then you wonder why I won't respond.  RMWeb is not the be all and end all, and certainly not the font of all knowledge. 

Keith 

 

Time for a truce and a fresh start perhaps.

 

 

2 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

That's us told!

 

Oh dear!  A example confirming Keith's view.

 

 

PS  I don't represent KR Models nor am I a defender of RMweb. Just getting a bit pi$$£d with every KR Models thread looking the same.

 

Time for people to give Keith and Michael a break, and time for KR Models to engage more with less of the curt responses.

[Bluebell Model Railway]

2 hours ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

Time for a truce and a fresh start perhaps.

 

 

 

Oh dear!  A example confirming Keith's view.

 

 

PS  I don't represent KR Models nor am I a defender of RMweb. Just getting a bit pi$$£d with every KR Models thread looking the same.

 

Time for people to give Keith and Michael a break, and time for KR Models to engage more with less of the curt responses.

I do agree, however when many are possible customers, and give said feedback who possibly may work close with a prototype and offer said info, its how its received and responded to.
Totally understand KR is a smaller concern and possibly may get overloaded with emails.

Personally I hope they do a good model, and I hope they show feedback was taken seriously or looked in to... you are only as good as your last model... other manufactures I include in that too. I just wish the communication was a bit more open, as to developments or what things may or may not be looked at, which also go someway to calming things.

Edited January 5, 2023 by Bluebell Model Railway

[jjb1970]

7 hours ago, KR Models said:

The personal attacks on my character and my personal life did leave a bad taste for being on here.  The faceless keyboard trolls are the main problem.  Most are not even potential customers.  I get attacked and then you wonder why I won't respond.  RMWeb is not the be all and end all, and certainly not the font of all knowledge. 

Keith 

 

I don't recall anyone claiming that RMWeb was the be all and end all or the font of all knowledge. However, there are a lot of knowledgeable members (of which I do not include myself, I just like traveling on trains and models).

The best riposte would be to let your product do the talking. If you released a knockout product I think the criticism would turn to acclamation. I have not bought any of your wares but am a potential customer. My interests are probably not shared by many RMWeb users but I do have an interest in the Fell because I find it a very clever and maligned design, and I have an interest in the Leader and double deck unit because I like the Southern and am deeply interested in Bulleid. All three would be purchases if done well. However, the Fell is deeply flawed, the flaws were obvious long before the model was released but it seem to have met a criteria as 'good enough'. If it is indeed good enough for those who bought it then good for them, I am an advocate of buy what you like and like what you buy. The fact I would not buy it is irrelevant to anyone else, but I would certainly have bought it is it was a reasonably accurate reproduction. Looking at the 4DD there are still issues with the face and roof profile. Will I buy it? If it is sold by Rails I will make a decision when the final model is released but certainly I will not pre-order. I am not that worried about missing it and have enough other things I like. Ditto with Leader, if Rails sell it I will make my mind up when the final model is released.

If I look at the Revolution, Realtrack, Accurascale and Rapido sub-sections of RMWeb the tone is very different. That may be because the principals of those companies are more practiced at dealing with customers but is probably more because the products speak for themselves. If I look at the Bachmann section there is more negativity but even there the tone is very different. That may also be partly because they are more practiced at dealing with customers, but is probably more a combination of their products being pretty good and that being sold via retail channels people make their own decisions about them. The Hornby section gets heated but I think a lot of the heat there stems from a genuine wish to see Hornby thrive. Which indicates that whilst RMWeb may have some 'trolls' (it'd be surprising if such a large membership didn't) most people here are just passionate enthusiasts.

[The Stationmaster]

Something which often comes to my mind - and it applyies in numerous areas - is a  maxim we were introduced to on the 'managing for quality' courses back in the days when  BR was very much into that and radical organisational changes there were built around it.   I think it is particularly sound advice for all model railway 'manufacturers' and commissioners -

 

'Under promise and over deliver'  (because that is one of the best ways to keep your customers satisfied).

[Darius43]

1 minute ago, The Stationmaster said:

'  (because that is one of the best ways to keep your customers satisfied).

Reminds me of a Simon & Garfunkel song…

 

Everywhere I go,

I get slandered, libeled…

 

Definitely not a song about model railways, I know, but still…

 

Cheers

 

Darius

 

(can’t get the song out of my head now…)

[Roy Langridge]

7 hours ago, Colin_McLeod said:

Just getting a bit pi$$£d with every KR Models thread looking the same.

What he said….

 

Can we just discuss the 4DD here please before another thread gets locked?

 

Roy

[cctransuk]

15 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:

What he said….

 

Can we just discuss the 4DD here please before another thread gets locked?

 

Roy

 

Hopefully to restore a little equilibrium to the wider KRM discussion; being, I haven't the slightest doubt, perceived as a "faceless keyboard warrior".

 

KRM suffered the consequences of appearing close on the heels of another (failed) customer-funded supplier.

 

Very early on, they demonstrated a lack of knowledge of their chosen initial subject; were less than appreciative when errors were pointed out; and were not apparently prepared to invest in an expert research source.

 

Make no mistake about it - I was WILLING KRM to be successful, and produce accurate models. I had bought every one of Heljan's one-offs, and the appearance of a new supplier of even more esoteric subjects filled me with excitement.

 

I was not a potential customer for GT3, as I had just completed a model from a resin kit. However, the announcement of 10100 caused me to place an immediate pre-order, despite having just made a substantial investment in the JE kit and the other requisite wheels, motor, etc.

 

The ongoing progress reports were not, unfortunately, designed to build confidence in the accuracy of the finished model - and, sadly, it proved to be the worst of all options. Suffice to say that the JE kit will be built - eventually.

 

Despite this disappointment, I still have a pre-order for DHP1 in authentic livery, and I sincerely hope that it fulfils all reasonable expectations.

 

Whilst I applaud KRM's progress images, it seems that most constructive comments do not produce corrections in forthcoming models; currently viz the 4DD.

 

I have come to the conclusion that KRM are of the 'ignorance is bliss' camp - which is a perfectly valid stance for a whole sector of the model-buying public. However, as a philosophy for a model producer, I would suggest that it is far from ideal, excluding as it does the sizeable sector who do know and care if a model is flawed.

 

So, to summarise, I am NOT a KRM hater/ knocker - I am a potential supporter / customer of their niche subject matter output. Unfortunately, they have not, so far, demonstrated a willingness to 'get it right' and thereby appeal to the entire market.

 

CJI.

Edited January 6, 2023 by cctransuk

[spamcan61]

Just now, cctransuk said:

I have come to the conclusion that KRM are of the 'ignorance is bliss' camp - which is perfectly valid stance for a whole sector of the model-buying public. However, as a philosophy for a model producer I would suggest that it is far from ideal, excluding as it does the sizeable sector who do know and care if a model is flawed.

 

CJI.

Trouble is, none of us how just how 'sizeable' that end of the market is (I suspect not very big) , compared with the likes of me in the 'near enough' sector. The most accurate model isn't necessarily going to be the most profitable model for the manufacturer.

[cctransuk]

50 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

Trouble is, none of us how just how 'sizeable' that end of the market is (I suspect not very big) , compared with the likes of me in the 'near enough' sector. The most accurate model isn't necessarily going to be the most profitable model for the manufacturer.

 

Perfectly true - but I would suggest that the majority of the sector which knows that KRM exist; know that their obscure subjects ever existed; and would therefore purchase such a model and would be prepared to prepay, is likely to know a fair bit about it and would know if it is accurate.

 

CJI.

Edited January 6, 2023 by cctransuk

[Roy Langridge]

For pities sake, can somebody who wishes to talk about KRM’s business model/ethic/comms please create a dedicated thread for it. 
 

Roy

[CUCKOO LINE]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

 

Perfectly true - but I would suggest that the majority of the sector which knows that KRM exist; know that their obscure subjects ever existed; and would therefore purchase such a model and would be prepared to prepay, is likely to know a fair bit about it and would know if it is accurate.

 

CJI.

Maybe but I suspect there are quite a few like me , who perhaps dont have such a detailed knowledge, assume that someone knowledgeable is actually consulted to ensure a reasonable representation is achieved allowing for compromises due to end cost. Many projects do seem to have an independent expert consultant on the subject involved which gives some reassurance to people like me. It really would be a shame if the end product is inaccurate due to obvious errors. Compromise for cost I can accept. I am speaking as someone interested in the model but someone very reluctant to commit to buying g until I see something concrete about what is being produced.

Edited January 6, 2023 by CUCKOO LINE
Add info

[Colin_McLeod]

5 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:

For pities sake, can somebody who wishes to talk about KRM’s business model/ethic/comms please create a dedicated thread for it. 
 

Roy

 

New thread started as suggested.

 

Now let's concentrate here on the 4DD

[Wickham Green too]

B-b-b-b-but .......... we've got nothing new to say ! 🤫

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

B-b-b-b-but .......... we've got nothing new to say ! 🤫

 

I think that it is going to be a lot quieter here now - but that is what you wanted!

 

The OT stuff is usually a sign that there's nothing topical to discuss.

 

CJI.