Hornby 2022 - Diesel/Electric Range

[TomScrut]

12 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

It's just, to me at least, statements like "it's the wrong length" get taken out of context and people might not buy the model in question as it's "the wrong length" when in this case the error is too small to notice with the human eye close up

 

Fair do's, I appreciate what you're saying. I wouldn't care about the scaling error it was just more that it meant to me cross breeding the Oxford and Hornby mk3s would be impossible anyway.

[Dunsignalling]

2 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

Yes that's what I am talking about.

 

My point was in reply to a comment about the idea of a combination of Oxford and Hornby tooling being used together to upgrade Hornby's mk3, logically if the length is incorrect, even by a small amount it would mean they are incompatible.

 

And yes it is still an error, even if a minor one!

A 75' coach at 1:76 = 11.84"; at 1:76.2 = 11.81". In width/height the difference will be tiny.

 

I doubt many people could spot which was which in a mixed rake moving at a scale 125mph! 

 

Existing Hornby HST coaches have a mixture of Hornby and Lima origins, reflected in different bogies and couplings; probably just as noticeable.

 

John

Edited April 22, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[TomScrut]

4 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

A 75' coach at 1:76 = 11.84"; at 1:76.2 = 11.81". In width/height the difference will be tiny.

 

I doubt many people could spot which was which in a mixed rake moving at a scale 125mph! 

 

Existing Hornby HST coaches have a mixture of Hornby and Lima origins, reflected in different bogies and couplings; probably just as noticeable.

 

John

 

As I said, it being noticeable wasn't my point!

[Dunsignalling]

17 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

Fair do's, I appreciate what you're saying. I wouldn't care about the scaling error it was just more that it meant to me cross breeding the Oxford and Hornby mk3s would be impossible anyway.

The best solution would be to scrap both the Oxford tooling and the existing mishmash of Hornby/Lima tooling and start again.

 

However, it remains to be seen whether Hornby will go that far without there being a real threat of a HST from a rival. All that guff from SK in "Hornby, A Model World" was just a bit of TV false jeopardy IMHO.

 

Either way, I'd not be surprised to see the Oxford versions rebranded as Railroad.

 

John

[Phil Parker]

15 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

The best solution would be to scrap both the Oxford tooling and the existing mishmash of Hornby/Lima tooling and start again.

 

That's "best" if you aren't the one paying several million to "start again". I suspect the accountants might take issue with this!

[scouse889]

18 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

The best solution would be to scrap both the Oxford tooling and the existing mishmash of Hornby/Lima tooling and start again.

 

I thought that was what Hornby were doing - i.e., the new slam-door Mark 3 range announced earlier this year is an all new tooling and not based on any existing Hornby/Lima/Oxford toolings? I'm sure this was discussed at some point in the 2022 Hornby coaching stock range thread...?

[Dunsignalling]

10 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

That's "best" if you aren't the one paying several million to "start again". I suspect the accountants might take issue with this!

I agree, but if there is (as has been strongly hinted) to be a "new" range of HST coaches, how else can the issue be addressed?

 

My own (minimum) solution would be to replace those from ex-LIma tooling (just the TGS?) in line with the existing Hornby items, plus adding "kinetic" coupling to all. Then transfer the Oxford ones to Railroad. That would at least get some uniformity into it all.

 

If Hornby were to go much beyond that but stopped short of newly tooling all types, there'd be a distinct risk of replacing one mongrel range with another.

 

John 

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

I agree, but if there is (as has been strongly hinted) to be a "new" range of HST coaches, how else can the issue be addressed?

 

My own (minimum) solution would be to replace those from ex-LIma tooling (just the TGS?) in line with the existing Hornby items, plus adding "kinetic" coupling to all. Then transfer the Oxford ones to Railroad. That would at least get some uniformity into it all.

 

If Hornby were to go much beyond that but stopped short of newly tooling all types, there'd be a distinct risk of replacing one mongrel range with another.

 

John 

Of course the other logic is do nothing.

 

Hornby has sold oodles of slam door mk3’s over the years.

 

Tooling up a duplication war has a very high cost in coaches.. at least 15 variants, before the ‘specials’.

A new mk3 will have a new rrp… so deliberately going head to head risks both sides losing, as not enough people buy one or the other.

 

If a short cut is taken it’ll immediately be called out, potentially gifting victory to the other, and saddling the other with the expense.

 

Alternatively they could go Hattons 66’s… just run cheap versions off the existing toolings in all the liveries and sink the competitor in price and volume using railroad at lower cost/risk.

 

I dont think the Oxford mk3 is in anyway bad, i’m surprised weve not seen more of them in the Hornby range… Greater Anglia is the obvious missing livery, but I doubt we’ll see Hornby do it, but Mk3 Intercity FO pullmans to go with the 87 would be very nice.

 

Going head to head duplication on new tooling slam door mk3’s seems a bit zero gain to me, and picking / chosing which wars to win and lose is better imo, fighting every battle head to head will only see yourself spread too thin… slam door mk3’s are pretty much done anyway on the mainline… other better fish to fry.

 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2022 by adb968008

[GordonC]

I think Hornby have probably gone about as far with the Mk3s as they can without a complete retooling - give or take a production run of perhaps missing liveries like Greater Anglia I really dont think they'll sell an awful lot more without a step change in quality from what we have. Oxford Rail promised a lot but between dodgy livery shades and boxy underframes that should be more angled and details falling off if you look at them I dont think they're really any better than the Hornby ones (yes I know Mk3 v Mk3A). I dont have any of the sliding door Mk3s, they're too modern for me, but again they look largely comparable too than say a Bachmann Mk2F. While there is meant to be a re-tool going on, we'll just have to wait and see how thorough that is or whether its just a bit of tweaking on the existing.

[Winter123]

Spoken to Hornby regarding the Class 803 destination panels and they have confirmed that they will be present on the final model. They are not illustrated in the mock up pic. Whether the destinations will be correct of course is an entirely different matter.........

[frobisher]

10 hours ago, spamcan61 said:

 

I don't recall any mention of the length discrepancy until Hornby tried to create the Frankenstein monster mix of Hornby and Oxford parts.

 

It was my understanding more a case of attempting to make the right accommodation within the sliding door MKIII tooling so that the most obvious faults of the Oxford ones (the godawful underframe) could be corrected for bootstrapping the earlier HST MKIII's and ended up instead demonstrating that it was easier to create new tooling instead.

[frobisher]

9 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Existing Hornby HST coaches have a mixture of Hornby and Lima origins, reflected in different bogies and couplings; probably just as noticeable.

 

Except don't they all use the same bogies and couplings when they were rereleased?

[frobisher]

9 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

The best solution would be to scrap both the Oxford tooling and the existing mishmash of Hornby/Lima tooling and start again.

 

However, it remains to be seen whether Hornby will go that far without there being a real threat of a HST from a rival. All that guff from SK in "Hornby, A Model World" was just a bit of TV false jeopardy IMHO.

 

Either way, I'd not be surprised to see the Oxford versions rebranded as Railroad.

 

Why would they do that when they have a cheaper to produce range to do that job already freshly upgraded with NEM couplings that could fill that role as well?

 

As it is they are specifically tooling up HST MK3's, the Oxford ones are MK3a loco hauled stock which (godawful underframe notwithstanding) are pretty good representations that would make perfectly good placeholders in the main range with almost zero effort.  That's where they will turn up if anywhere.

 

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

On 22/04/2022 at 18:01, adb968008 said:

Of course the other logic is do nothing.

 

Hornby has sold oodles of slam door mk3’s over the years.

 

Tooling up a duplication war has a very high cost in coaches.. at least 15 variants, before the ‘specials’.

A new mk3 will have a new rrp… so deliberately going head to head risks both sides losing, as not enough people buy one or the other.

 

If a short cut is taken it’ll immediately be called out, potentially gifting victory to the other, and saddling the other with the expense.

 

Alternatively they could go Hattons 66’s… just run cheap versions off the existing toolings in all the liveries and sink the competitor in price and volume using railroad at lower cost/risk.

 

I dont think the Oxford mk3 is in anyway bad, i’m surprised weve not seen more of them in the Hornby range… Greater Anglia is the obvious missing livery, but I doubt we’ll see Hornby do it, but Mk3 Intercity FO pullmans to go with the 87 would be very nice.

 

Going head to head duplication on new tooling slam door mk3’s seems a bit zero gain to me, and picking / chosing which wars to win and lose is better imo, fighting every battle head to head will only see yourself spread too thin… slam door mk3’s are pretty much done anyway on the mainline… other better fish to fry.

 

 

 

Doing nothing and churning out more slam door Mk3s using the now 20 year old moulding would suit very nearly every single modeller who doesn't care about the coaches and will accept anything as long as the loco hauling them has micromillimeter perfect roof grills and door handle positions. My evidence for this is my total inability to flog 76 seat replacement interiors despite Hornby having sold tens of thousands of coaches with either original 1976 layout standard class innards, or even worse the first class 2+1 layout in standard class coaches as per the IC Swallow releases in 2020. Not that I'm bitter or anything!!!!!

Slam door Mk3's might be done on the mainline (which is true bar the GWR sleeper and some charter rakes) but given the length of their careers and the appetite for loco models in the 1976-2020 period you'd have thought the market was still fairly large going forward.

 

[GordonC]

15 hours ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

Doing nothing and churning out more slam door Mk3s using the now 20 year old moulding would suit very nearly every single modeller who doesn't care about the coaches and will accept anything as long as the loco hauling them has micromillimeter perfect roof grills and door handle positions. My evidence for this is my total inability to flog 76 seat replacement interiors despite Hornby having sold tens of thousands of coaches with either original 1976 layout standard class innards, or even worse the first class 2+1 layout in standard class coaches as per the IC Swallow releases in 2020. Not that I'm bitter or anything!!!!!

Slam door Mk3's might be done on the mainline (which is true bar the GWR sleeper and some charter rakes) but given the length of their careers and the appetite for loco models in the 1976-2020 period you'd have thought the market was still fairly large going forward.

 

 

It might be difficult to judge demand based on the current offerings with how long they've been available and the various liveries already produced - a lot of people may have filled their boots already or lots may be unsatisfied with current offerings. I think the demand will be there when there's a suitable product - there's certainly been plenty of possible liveries for them in that 1976-2020 period. Personally, I wasn't aware of your 76-seat replacement interiors, but I hadn't been looking to detail my mk3s.

[stonojnr]

On 21/04/2022 at 16:20, scouse889 said:

 

There's a worrying window of opportunity for "Liverpool Street-Newcastle" to appear from that!

 

there was a film in the 70s, though the name of it and who was in it escapes me at the moment, that did that swap with Liverpool Street in for Liverpool Lime Street because it was cheaper to film in London at the time I think, and the director didnt think anyone would really notice, but the main character was supposed to arrive in Liverpool by train but you see them exit around the old Liverpool Street cab rank and past a sign that I think they half obscured with extras/luggage so it just said Liverpool...so anything is possible

 

[stonojnr]

On 22/04/2022 at 14:21, woodenhead said:

They do do the latter when it comes to steam models particularly - Graham Muspratt and Tony Wright have been involved with models in the past from that respect.

 

It probably depends who the model is aimed at in terms of effort put in, clearly anything LNER Pacific or Southern Railway, they do a lot of research on as those models tend to look splendid even if bits fall off or you've a banana shaped chassis which are production issues not design / research.   Maybe they simply don't put the effort in when it comes to some D/E models

 

it just doesnt make sense to me at least, as to why one part of the business does seem to have this check/review process on signing off designs that way, which seems the sensible way to do it and youd think would translate across all their design efforts, yet clearly it doesnt.

 

even just as a matter of professional pride if you were a designer of D/E models,and if you really had no interest in them as a concept, youd still want to get it right and as accurate as you could, because thats what you spend hours a week working on, its that love of precision and design which is why you are a designer in the first place Id have thought.

 

 

[woodenhead]

5 minutes ago, stonojnr said:

 

it just doesnt make sense to me at least, as to why one part of the business does seem to have this check/review process on signing off designs that way, which seems the sensible way to do it and youd think would translate across all their design efforts, yet clearly it doesnt.

 

even just as a matter of professional pride if you were a designer of D/E models,and if you really had no interest in them as a concept, youd still want to get it right and as accurate as you could, because thats what you spend hours a week working on, its that love of precision and design which is why you are a designer in the first place Id have thought.

 

 

Perhaps down to who buys those ranges and their expectations versus Hornby's understanding when it comes to the D/E market.  It may also be that they expect Accurascale et al to run away with the truly detailed versions whereas Hornby feel more confident about holding their steam market especially when it comes to Pacifics and other big engines.  Put your money where you know you can command the market, and with some items like the HST, Pendolino and IEP - get in first, saturate and because of the tooling costs you're not likely to have much competition.

[GordonC]

45 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Perhaps down to who buys those ranges and their expectations versus Hornby's understanding when it comes to the D/E market.  It may also be that they expect Accurascale et al to run away with the truly detailed versions whereas Hornby feel more confident about holding their steam market especially when it comes to Pacifics and other big engines.  Put your money where you know you can command the market, and with some items like the HST, Pendolino and IEP - get in first, saturate and because of the tooling costs you're not likely to have much competition.

 

.... but then they cry like babies and chuck toys out the pram if another competitor 'dares' to attempt to produce one of 'their' models that they've shown minimal interest in in decades. If they're not interested in producing correct and accurate high-spec models then there's room in the market for a high and lower spec models for many classes so its not fair to torpedo other manufacturers for having a go.

[woodenhead]

2 minutes ago, GordonC said:

 

.... but then they cry like babies and chuck toys out the pram if another competitor 'dares' to attempt to produce one of 'their' models that they've shown minimal interest in in decades. If they're not interested in producing correct and accurate high-spec models then there's room in the market for a high and lower spec models for many classes so its not fair to torpedo other manufacturers for having a go.

But do they always do that, or just with steam models or certain iconic trains

 

I didn't see any ghashing of teeth with the class 31 annoucement.

Edited April 25, 2022 by woodenhead
added HST

[GordonC]

3 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

But do they always do that, or just with steam models or certain iconic trains

 

I didn't see any ghashing of teeth with the class 31 annoucement.

 

how would they compete with the Accurascale offering though? no you dont want to buy a spot-on model for £50 less than our £220 questionable one, even an ex-lima railroad one would probably be nudging £100

[woodenhead]

5 minutes ago, GordonC said:

 

how would they compete with the Accurascale offering though? no you dont want to buy a spot-on model for £50 less than our £220 questionable one, even an ex-lima railroad one would probably be nudging £100

They clearly can't so stick to where they currently reign supreme - by keep churning out upgraded detail Pacfic models and key 4-6-0 locomotives and then toss in some cute little engines in between.

 

And these models will sell and sell to people who simply follow Hornby, so even if Accurascale turn out a Flying Scotsman tomorrow and it sells out, Hornby will continue to sell it's own version because the market will sustain that.

 

But even in this their secure market, they are reacting - smoke units, changes to DCC compatibility so they are sensing a changing tide.

[TomScrut]

1 hour ago, stonojnr said:

 

it just doesnt make sense to me at least, as to why one part of the business does seem to have this check/review process on signing off designs that way, which seems the sensible way to do it and youd think would translate across all their design efforts, yet clearly it doesnt.

 

even just as a matter of professional pride if you were a designer of D/E models,and if you really had no interest in them as a concept, youd still want to get it right and as accurate as you could, because thats what you spend hours a week working on, its that love of precision and design which is why you are a designer in the first place Id have thought.

 

 

 

I expect artwork design and engineering design are done by completely different people, so one isn't necessary linked to the other.

[XChris]

19 hours ago, woodenhead said:

 

But even in this their secure market, they are reacting - smoke units, changes to DCC compatibility so they are sensing a changing tide.

 

 

The question with Hornby is can they swim faster than the tide now? After just plodding along assuming that everything is fine and no one is going to steal there market away from them. Now they have a struggle, a hastily thought up new tooling of the HST could be dissasterous! All of a sudden this 'other' manufacturer releases a brilliant detailed model with all the bells and whistles and gadgets and gizmos that Hornby couldn't do, but in the meantime another manufacturer takes a shot at there other remaining good selling D&E models and they don't see it coming and are blindsided by it. Now they don't have a D&E range other than railroad and the market has gone from them. The HST they produce now has to be spot on. Then they have to look at the rest and get that right, quickly if they are to remain...

Edited April 26, 2022 by XChris
Spelling

[Johan DC]

One thing Hornby could save on big time, is market research. All the specialists are here, giving free advise. 😁