Revolution Trains announce Class 175 'Coradia' and Class 180 'Adelante' DMUs in N & OO Gauge.

[nickb4141]

3 hours ago, big jim said:

To me a FNW version is probably the most versatile of the liveries as it can be rebranded for use on mid 2000s ATW based layout too

 

Admittedly I didn’t express an interest in any particular 175 even though I want one and was just going to order whatever took my fancy when the books opened, I suppose I shot myself in the foot regards the FNW one, it used to guard them and it was the first unit I drove when doing my handling hours with FNW then I drove them rebranded with ATW (it was also the last unit I I drove for them) But that was the weird interim livery ATW one 

 

 

 

 

Well said Big Jim! The FNW livery is also the only livery that has operated over all of the lines shown in Revolution’s route maps!

[The Pilotman]

17 hours ago, nickb4141 said:

Let me just ask you this, if you were investing your money in a project, how many 2mm models do you realistically think would outsell a direct 4mm equivalent? If you’re being honest, I think the answer would be very few or none.

Not many, I suspect. Perhaps only the sort of wagons that make up long block trains for which 2mm modellers have the space, that 4mm modellers don’t. 

 

17 hours ago, nickb4141 said:

how can the FNW version be viable in 2mm, but not in 4mm?

The answer to that is probably as simple as there were sufficient expressions of interest for the 2mm version to convince Revolution Trains that it was viable. For the 4mm version there weren’t enough, apparently. Why that was the case, I’ve no idea. 

Revolution Trains have been around long enough and have a track record that shows they have a very good idea of the current market. I would accept their judgement on the viability of this, or any other, project. 
Anyway, time to go and do some modelling as this is starting to sound like the Carmine and Cream Class 314 discussion all over again. 
 

Edited December 4, 2023 by The Pilotman

[E100]

It may well be a case of producing the first run and then people get them in their hands (and see them at exhibitions/friends etc), re-running the EOI for further liveries as the Revolution 175 would become much more widely known about. This seems to have served Realtrack well with their 156 with a huge amount of liveries now covered for example.

[WCML100]

all this talk is really wetting the appetite! Can't wait for our 180 in Dynamic Lines livery to arrive on Greenford! 

[Sir TophamHatt]

On 01/12/2023 at 20:24, nickb4141 said:

I don’t think expressions of interest tell you anything - it’s easy for anyone to say ‘I’ll buy two of those and three of those’ but the fact that you had little response would suggest the message didn’t get out there to the intended audience.

Why didn't it mean people weren't interersted?

[Sir TophamHatt]

On 02/12/2023 at 20:17, Roy L S said:

I would be interested to know which retailers Ben, because that doesn't accord with ones I know and have spoken to, who say it is steam/diesel transition that sells best

Try and find some MK5 sets at a good price.

The Class 68 isn't an easy find either.

 

That says, despite a lot of steam and early BR diesels selling "well" - whatever that means, it's actually bang up to date, currently running trains/units that seem to fly off shelves.

 

While not an interest of mine, the first manufacturer to sell the Electrostar unit will be able to milk that cash cow for a long time.

[Roy L S]

3 hours ago, Sir TophamHatt said:

Try and find some MK5 sets at a good price.

The Class 68 isn't an easy find either.

 

That says, despite a lot of steam and early BR diesels selling "well" - whatever that means, it's actually bang up to date, currently running trains/units that seem to fly off shelves.

 

While not an interest of mine, the first manufacturer to sell the Electrostar unit will be able to milk that cash cow for a long time.

Two specifically selected items doesn't really conclusively say anything one way or the other. Of those the Mk5 sleepers were only released in limited numbers to certain interested retailers so hardly likely to attract deep discounts and the TPE sets are not even in the shops yet. A very quick scope of the internet and I have easily found N Gauge Dapol 68s in Compass and DRS liveries at Jadlam Toys and Models which are two more modern ones for £134.89. To counter that claim about modern stuff currently running flying off shelves, I have also by way of just two examples very easily found a Dapol 66 in "Thank you NHS" livery for £79 at Rainbow Railways and a Farish "Biffa" one for £96 at the same shop. 

Edited December 6, 2023 by Roy L S
Added words

[PaulCheffus]

1 hour ago, Roy L S said:

Two specifically selected items doesn't really conclusively say anything one way or the other. Of those the Mk5 sleepers were only released in limited numbers to certain interested retailers so hardly likely to attract deep discounts and the TPE sets are not even in the shops yet. A very quick scope of the internet and I have easily found N Gauge Dapol 68s in Compass and DRS liveries at Jadlam Toys and Models which are two more modern ones for £134.89. To counter that claim about modern stuff currently running flying off shelves, I have also by way of just two examples very easily found a Dapol 66 in "Thank you NHS" livery for £79 at Rainbow Railways and a Farish "Biffa" one for £96 at the same shop. 

Hi

 

I suspect the person you originally quoted was talking about 4mm not 2mm models.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[andypops]

Blimey…it’s been a nause reading all of this retailer bashing, mostly completely off topic! FWIW I am hugely grateful for what Ben and the team at revolution are doing, not just with this model but across the piece. Pushing standards up and giving us new models that the box-shifting big players don’t want to touch (probably because they don’t want the development costs). It’s amazing to think back just ten or so years, when all “current day” layouts looked the same because of 90% of the models were made by 2 large retailers. (However I do admit to missing the prices - when I could pick up 8 MBAs for £72 or 8 VDAs for £64!)

 

Back onto the topic - I’m hugely looking forward to these stalwarts arriving. Having lived in and around South Wales and the Marches these are the main gap in rolling stock from the last 10-15 years. They’ve served us well, and I will miss them. 
 

I have a question for Ben or the Revolution team - when do you envisage the book closing? I am desperate to put my order in (well, to increase it 😉) but with this time of year and other family priorities I’m still saving. as you recognise, this is a non-essential luxury spend and family has to come first.
 

I hope it won’t be for a few months yet, but as much notice as possible for the book closing would be a huge help to those of us budgeting. 
 

Cheers

[Revolution Ben]

8 minutes ago, andypops said:

<snipped>

I have a question for Ben or the Revolution team - when do you envisage the book closing? I am desperate to put my order in (well, to increase it 😉) but with this time of year and other family priorities I’m still saving. as you recognise, this is a non-essential luxury spend and family has to come first.

<snipped>

 

Hi there,

 

The latest news is usually on our Projects page, but as a rule of thumb we won't usually close any order books until we have been able to show EPs, or ideally decorated samples.  We've so far received the EPs in N (with 00 EPs expected very soon) but no decorated samples, so we are a good few weeks away yet.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[nickb4141]

On 06/12/2023 at 10:48, Sir TophamHatt said:

Why didn't it mean people weren't interersted?

Because you could only be ‘not interested’ if you actually saw the ‘expressions of interest’ in the first place! Revolution seem to have a very low profile compared to for example, Accurascale. At the end of the day, all manufacturers are selling their products to the same 00 gauge market, but I can’t imagine Accurascale only offering 2 liveries on an 00 DMU (if they ever produce one,) and Dapol are able to offer 7 liveries on an arguably more restricted EMU prototype, than the 175 and 180 DMU’s? So why is the 00 market so different to Revolution’s eyes? 

[Rhydgaled]

11 hours ago, nickb4141 said:

Because you could only be ‘not interested’ if you actually saw the ‘expressions of interest’ in the first place! Revolution seem to have a very low profile compared to for example, Accurascale. At the end of the day, all manufacturers are selling their products to the same 00 gauge market, but I can’t imagine Accurascale only offering 2 liveries on an 00 DMU (if they ever produce one,) and Dapol are able to offer 7 liveries on an arguably more restricted EMU prototype, than the 175 and 180 DMU’s? So why is the 00 market so different to Revolution’s eyes? 

I've just dug up the original announcement of the order book opening for the 4mm models (https://revolutiontrains.com/class-175-and-180-in-oo-4mm-available-to-pre-order-now/) to confirm my recollection and I think I was right. Ie. they didn't have an EOI For 2mm but sales of the FNW livery weren't as good as expected so they thought they would check interest in OO with an EOI before committing to production.

[Revolution Mike]

18 hours ago, nickb4141 said:

Because you could only be ‘not interested’ if you actually saw the ‘expressions of interest’ in the first place! Revolution seem to have a very low profile compared to for example, Accurascale. At the end of the day, all manufacturers are selling their products to the same 00 gauge market, but I can’t imagine Accurascale only offering 2 liveries on an 00 DMU (if they ever produce one,) and Dapol are able to offer 7 liveries on an arguably more restricted EMU prototype, than the 175 and 180 DMU’s? So why is the 00 market so different to Revolution’s eyes? 

 

We recognise that whenever there is a limited time period for anything that some people will miss out (whether that is expressing interest or indeed pre-ordering something) just because of timing - that also works in the opposite direction ie customers that express interest change their mind later on.

 

Each manufacturer has a different way of working out quantities and whether they can/want to hold stock (we're open that we largely produce to orders and don't hold much stock - there are pros and cons to that).  We're not only offering 2 liveries - we're offering 4 base liveries split across the 175s and 180s plus more variations eg alternative numbers; livery variations (GC); and number of cars (175 - 2 vs 3).  Before considering DCC that already gives us the 4 base liveries but 8 different units. All of which have MoQs which vary depending on base livery vs tempo printing.

 

I realise that is little consolation to someone desperate for a particular livery but as we've emphasised: a. we're working off data (albeit a snapshot) and the numbers were not particularly close to reaching necessary MoQs; b. the liveries are not completely dead yet as we will talk to retailers about whether they think any other liveries are worth offering (though we have to recognise that we don't want to put retailers in the position of holding unpopular liveries).

 

Cheers Mike

[Sir TophamHatt]

On 19/12/2023 at 21:31, nickb4141 said:

Because you could only be ‘not interested’ if you actually saw the ‘expressions of interest’ in the first place! Revolution seem to have a very low profile compared to for example, Accurascale. At the end of the day, all manufacturers are selling their products to the same 00 gauge market, but I can’t imagine Accurascale only offering 2 liveries on an 00 DMU (if they ever produce one,) and Dapol are able to offer 7 liveries on an arguably more restricted EMU prototype, than the 175 and 180 DMU’s? So why is the 00 market so different to Revolution’s eyes? 

The issue here is that your view point is jaded because they aren't producing something you are interested in.

 

I see no stand out marketing for either Accurascale than Dapol or Revolution Trains - the only one I occasionally see is Hornby.  But then I don't read railway modelling magazines.  Enough people saw the EOI as the whole project has gone into production.  I don't really follow model railway news but I still managed to see the EOI and get registered for it.  Maybe people wanted other liveries more and can't afford two or three units these days?

 

Accurascale aren't selling to the same market as Revolution.  I am not interested in yet another Pannier tank, but I am interested in a 180.  Not the same market.

 

Different companies have different thresholds on what they want to / can risk.
Stamping your feet looking for an answer that you won't accept anyway isn't going to help anyone, brings nothing to the discussion and is quite simply getting boring now.  Perhaps I should take my protests to Asda for not producing some Red Leicester with black pepper cheese this year, nor did they last year.  It clearly didn't sell that well the year before that, so they didn't get it manufactured again.  Do I stand around and complain about it?  No.  I just accept it and buy some other cheese instead.

 

EOI didn't meet the threshold of [producing that livery] being worth it for Revolution (at this time).

 

Sorry if this seems harsh.  I am here for updates about the project, not moans about a specific livery not being produced.

Edited December 23, 2023 by Sir TophamHatt

[nickb4141]

6 hours ago, Sir TophamHatt said:

The issue here is that your view point is jaded because they aren't producing something you are interested in.

 

I see no stand out marketing for either Accurascale than Dapol or Revolution Trains - the only one I occasionally see is Hornby.  But then I don't read railway modelling magazines.  Enough people saw the EOI as the whole project has gone into production.  I don't really follow model railway news but I still managed to see the EOI and get registered for it.  Maybe people wanted other liveries more and can't afford two or three units these days?

 

Accurascale aren't selling to the same market as Revolution.  I am not interested in yet another Pannier tank, but I am interested in a 180.  Not the same market.

 

Different companies have different thresholds on what they want to / can risk.
Stamping your feet looking for an answer that you won't accept anyway isn't going to help anyone, brings nothing to the discussion and is quite simply getting boring now.  Perhaps I should take my protests to Asda for not producing some Red Leicester with black pepper cheese this year, nor did they last year.  It clearly didn't sell that well the year before that, so they didn't get it manufactured again.  Do I stand around and complain about it?  No.  I just accept it and buy some other cheese instead.

 

EOI didn't meet the threshold of [producing that livery] being worth it for Revolution (at this time).

 

Sorry if this seems harsh.  I am here for updates about the project, not moans about a specific livery not being produced.

Haha! I’m not sure who’s ’stamping their feet’ here?!
 

I don’t think you have understood the point I have been making. The 00 market is the same group of consumers whether you’re a modern or steam era modeller and every permutation in between. They don’t suddenly metamorphosise into a different species when purchasing Revolution products.
 

Accurascale are far from a predominantly steam manufacturer, so why you feel Accurascale sell to a different market, to Revolution is a different view, but everyone is entitled to their opinion. As a previous purchaser of Revolution products, there are many items that Accurascale produce that also appeal and complement the Revolution products produce or are planning to introduce. The fundamental difference between Revolution and most other manufacturers is that they other a range of liveries which cover the timeline of the products they’re producing, thereby maximising the return on their investment, by appealing to the widest possible audience. Similarly, Dapol, Bachmann, Heljan, Realtrack and even Hornby follow the same practice, so it must work, as they’re all still in business! I’ve fully accept that Revolution have no plans to produce the livery I would have a purchased a couple of units in, but I just think some of their business decisions are a little strange, but it’s their business and that decision is entirely their perrogrative. 
 

Interestingly, no one has countered my argument that if the missing First livery can be viable in N scale, then why it wouldn’t be in 00 scale? Even Ben has said ‘N gauge items can sell at least as well as 00 scale’ which kind of contradicts the decision that has been made.

 

Anyway, Merry Christmas everyone, I hope that clarifies the point, I’ve been trying to make and here’s to a ‘spitting your dummy out’ - free 2024! 😆

[The Pilotman]

4 hours ago, nickb4141 said:

Interestingly, no one has countered my argument that if the missing First livery can be viable in N scale, then why it wouldn’t be in 00 scale?

 

Someone did a few days ago…
 

On 20/12/2023 at 15:55, Revolution Mike said:

the numbers were not particularly close to reaching necessary MoQs

Your comparisons between Revolution and other companies are unfair. I would not expect a company run by a handful of people, doing it in their spare time, to go about things in the same way as a large company with multiple paid staff on their books.

Edited December 23, 2023 by The Pilotman

[Revolution Mike B]

22 minutes ago, The Pilotman said:

 

Someone did a few days ago…
 

Your comparisons between Revolution and other companies are unfair. I would not expect a company run by a handful of people, mainly doing it in their spare time, to go about things in the same way as a large company with multiple paid staff on their books.

We’re actually all full time now but as you’ve quite rightly said, there’s only four of us, we wear many hats at once, and we can only juggle so many balls at any one time. Posting out thousands of parcels for example, is very time consuming and evidently eats in to other tasks. 
 

Cheers 

Mike B

Edited December 23, 2023 by Revolution Mike B
spelling

[nickb4141]

7 hours ago, The Pilotman said:

 

Someone did a few days ago…

Really? Please do enlighten me…….I haven’t seen anything that explains the phenomenon of N gauge being more viable than 00 gauge products? Block wagons, I could possibly understand, but we’re talking about a 2 or 3 car multiple unit here? 

 

7 hours ago, The Pilotman said:

 

Your comparisons between Revolution and other companies are unfair. I would not expect a company run by a handful of people, doing it in their spare time, to go about things in the same way as a large company with multiple paid staff on their books.

Is it? I see Mike has already put you straight on that one and confirmed Revolution isn’t run as a side line hobby. Even if that was the case, Realtrack manage to produce multiple liveries of their products and I wasn’t aware that there is an army of people working for Charlie Petty? 
 

Just to reconfirm (as I’ve said many times before,) I love the products Revolution have produced and my wallet has been considerably lighter as a result, in both 00 gauge and N gauge! I’m not attacking them, but merely trying to provide constructive feedback regarding some of the decisions that have been made, with a view to them maximising their success and potentially reinvesting that into further projects. I genuinely wish them the very best for the future and look forward to what else they have up their sleeves. 
 

Merry Christmas everyone! 😁

[NBL]

3 hours ago, nickb4141 said:

Really? Please do enlighten me…….I haven’t seen anything that explains the phenomenon of N gauge being more viable than 00 gauge products? Block wagons, I could possibly understand, but we’re talking about a 2 or 3 car multiple unit here? 

 

Is it? I see Mike has already put you straight on that one and confirmed Revolution isn’t run as a side line hobby. Even if that was the case, Realtrack manage to produce multiple liveries of their products and I wasn’t aware that there is an army of people working for Charlie Petty? 
 

Just to reconfirm (as I’ve said many times before,) I love the products Revolution have produced and my wallet has been considerably lighter as a result, in both 00 gauge and N gauge! I’m not attacking them, but merely trying to provide constructive feedback regarding some of the decisions that have been made, with a view to them maximising their success and potentially reinvesting that into further projects. I genuinely wish them the very best for the future and look forward to what else they have up their sleeves. 
 

Merry Christmas everyone! 😁

Can't you just accept what Revolution have said and give it a rest?

 

If they aren't offering what you want, buy one of the units in a different livery, then support the cottage industry by getting someone to do you a respray.

 

Or

 

Start your own company and produce the unit in the livery you want if you are so convinced it's a surefire winner.

[Steven B]

There's always batch two...

 

I was disappointed that the WYPTE class 321 didn't make the cut in N. I've still got the plain white one waiting for some paint having been out of the box twice. Clearly no actually that important for my modelling!

 

Steven B 

[The Pilotman]

13 hours ago, Revolution Mike B said:

We’re actually all full time now

I wasn’t aware of that but that’s excellent news. To go from two people doing things in their own time to four full time staff proves the soundness of your business model, and your knack for knowing what subjects are viable for producing as models. 

[Covkid]

On 23/12/2023 at 18:19, nickb4141 said:

I don’t think you have understood the point I have been making. The 00 market is the same group of consumers whether you’re a modern or steam era modeller and every permutation in between. They don’t suddenly metamorphosise into a different species when purchasing Revolution products.

 

The OO market is not the same group of consumers at all.  My modeling period is 1960-1974. Therefore, not matter how outstanding the Cavalex 56 and 60 are and no matter how fantastic the Accurascale 92 is etc etc - they are of zero interest to this particular consumer. 

[JackB95]

Revolution have published their 2023 round-up online and in it, are some tasty pictures for us all!

Here's some pictures taken from the page of the 175/180 EPs in 00 gauge!

 

 

I also spotted Revolution's own Mike Buick said the following on the Facebook group for Dean Park:

 

"Incoming! First EP samples of our Revolution Trains OO scale Class 175 and 180 units. I’ve been quietly testing these over the Christmas break and so far, so good. There’s a few things that need revising slightly but overall, I’m (I say I’m as the rest of the team haven’t had a chance to look at them properly yet) extremely pleased at what the factory have produced so far. Key Features: Single 21 pin MTC Decoder, Independent Night / Day / Head and Tail lights, Central Door Locking Lights, Interior Lights, Illuminated Destination Display, 14 pin electrical couplers fitted to kinematic mounts, working Shafenberger couplings on each driving car, suitable for Peco radius 2 curves and above (as tested by myself), and Factory Fitted Speakers in both driving cars. You can see the EP samples at DEFine next weekend and Rails of Sheffield the weekend after."

They look absolutely fantastic, and very promising models. Can't wait to see it developed further and eventually running on my North Wales-themed layout 🤤

[Bryn_Bach_Railway]

Those EP’s look great! Although can’t help but notice the doors have a raised outline around them? If memory serves me right on the real things that’s a rubber seal but it never really stuck out to much. Happy to be proven wrong however! Everything else on them looks brilliant. Can’t wait for them to be running on my layout.

[JackB95]

1 minute ago, Bryn_Bach_Railway said:

Those EP’s look great! Although can’t help but notice the doors have a raised outline around them? If memory serves me right on the real things that’s a rubber seal but it never really stuck out to much. Happy to be proven wrong however! Everything else on them looks brilliant. Can’t wait for them to be running on my layout.

 

Yeah this EP has emphasised the rubber seal somewhat! I was discussing this with a few mates who signed them as train crew. Certainly a lot flatter in real life, but it's good to see they've at least acknowledged its existence.