Revolution Trains announce Class 175 'Coradia' and Class 180 'Adelante' DMUs in N & OO Gauge.

[Sir TophamHatt]

Is there a list of the evolution of the status?

IE, how many steps to it being released?

 

At the moment, the OO is "in tooling" - I guess after that it's "assessing first EP", possibly some more EPs, then "awaiting livery samples" ?

 

Just looking for an in-order list.

[Mike Harvey]

59 minutes ago, Sir TophamHatt said:

Is there a list of the evolution of the status?

IE, how many steps to it being released?

 

At the moment, the OO is "in tooling" - I guess after that it's "assessing first EP", possibly some more EPs, then "awaiting livery samples" ?

 

Just looking for an in-order list.

Several stages are iterative so the first EP may require more than one round of changes to the tooling before moving to livery samples, again with more than one round to get everything right. Once the button is pressed to go to production, there is still the possibility that the production sample will throw up the need for changes which might be a misplaced label or a colour change, or wrong detail parts. Multiply all that by the number of cars in a multiple unit, motorised or not, multiply again by the number of livery variations, add in the design, production and drop testing of the packaging, production of data and instruction sheet, testing and documenting sound details, and it is a miracle that we end up with some lovely models. Unfortunately I do not think that anyone can attach a timescale to the sequence even if everything is perfect at every stage.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Mike Harvey
spelling

[Revolution Mike]

Mike is right that the process can be iterative!

 

We don’t have a fixed list of stages but just update it with the latest information we have for a particular model. 
 

Very loosely the process goes: Research, CAD, Tooling, Decorated Samples, Production, Shipping to the UK. But within many of those stages there’s intermediate tasks or tasks which can run concurrently so we just tell people what stage we’re at now. 
 

cheers Mike

[elmtree-line]

 

Fingers crossed for the first set of OO gauge 175 EP's around February 2024 time.

 

If one was being hopeful, a release date of "Spring 2025" might be achievable.

 

 

[nickb4141]

Hi, I don’t know if anyone on here can answer this? 

 

I’ve tried, (unsuccessfully,) to pre order two 4mm 175’s in First North Western livery on the revolution site, but they seem to have dropped off the 4mm section? They are still showing in the 2mm section, so assuming they must be doing in 4mm, as the more popular scale? They also show on the route map for 175’s in FNW which Revolution have on the site? I sent a message, but haven’t had a reply back, so not sure what’s going on? They don’t seem interested in taking my money, that’s for sure! :) 

[Revolution Ben]

 

Hi nickb4141,

 

We were unsure of demand for FNW so we carried out an expression of interest exercise over the summer.  The response was minimal, so at the moment it isn't one we are offering. You will understand of course that different livery versions have to reach an MOQ (minimum order quantity) to be viable.

 

We would rather not take your money than take it and then have to refund it as we are unable to fulfil your expectation.

 

It may be one we revisit later.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Revolution Ben

[Scottish-Exile]

So looking forward to these arriving in the TfW livery, although the first thing I'll be doing is 'de-branding' them in a kind of reversal of "Life Imitates Art" as that's what we're currently doing to the fleet 😂

 

 

 

[adb968008]

6 hours ago, Scottish-Exile said:

So looking forward to these arriving in the TfW livery, although the first thing I'll be doing is 'de-branding' them in a kind of reversal of "Life Imitates Art" as that's what we're currently doing to the fleet 😂

 

 

 

How are the passengers handling it ?

i heard a single 153 headed up to Manchester for a spin the other week… that must have been cozy.

Edited December 1, 2023 by adb968008

[nickb4141]

16 hours ago, Revolution Ben said:

 

Hi nickb4141,

 

We were unsure of demand for FNW so we carried out an expression of interest exercise over the summer.  The response was minimal, so at the moment it isn't one we are offering. You will understand of course that different livery versions have to reach an MOQ (minimum order quantity) to be viable.

 

We would rather not take your money than take it and then have to refund it as we are unable to fulfil your expectation.

 

It may be one we revisit later.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

Hi Ben,

 

Thanks for your reply. Re the expression of interest, I had no idea of this and I wonder if others may be in the same boat. I was surprised that you are still doing the FNW livery in 2mm if it’s that unpopular as I thought the common assumption was that N gauge is only 10% of the 4mm market, hence if 2mm is viable, you’d expect 4mm to be a certainty? Currently the only two choices are both Welsh liveries, so anyone modelling quite a wide area of Northern England is effectively excluded from having an excuse to buy a 175 from you, which is a shame as it no doubt effects the viability of this and future projects. I appreciate your past experience with the 320/321 liveries offered, but only offering 2 liveries both from the same geographical area seems like a missed opportunity to me? 
 

Cheers, Nick.

[Revolution Ben]

8 hours ago, nickb4141 said:

Hi Ben,

 

Thanks for your reply. Re the expression of interest, I had no idea of this and I wonder if others may be in the same boat. I was surprised that you are still doing the FNW livery in 2mm if it’s that unpopular as I thought the common assumption was that N gauge is only 10% of the 4mm market, hence if 2mm is viable, you’d expect 4mm to be a certainty? Currently the only two choices are both Welsh liveries, so anyone modelling quite a wide area of Northern England is effectively excluded from having an excuse to buy a 175 from you, which is a shame as it no doubt effects the viability of this and future projects. I appreciate your past experience with the 320/321 liveries offered, but only offering 2 liveries both from the same geographical area seems like a missed opportunity to me? 
 

Cheers, Nick.

 

Hi Nick,

 

It seems a common misapprehension among 4mm modellers that the market scales.   We have found with many of our projects that the 2mm version sells at least as well as 4mm.

 

This may be because fewer customers seem to individually buy more of most things, probably relfecting that their layouts tend to feature scale length trains rather than truncated ones.

 

I appreciate that some customers may have missed the expressions of interest but it was widely publicised on our website and on here and is the only hard data we have.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[woodenhead]

4 hours ago, Revolution Ben said:

 

It seems a common misapprehension among 4mm modellers that the market scales.   We have found with many of our projects that the 2mm version sells at least as well as 4mm.

 

 

I guess this indicates you are picking the right prototypes to model.

[nickb4141]

10 hours ago, Revolution Ben said:

 

Hi Nick,

 

It seems a common misapprehension among 4mm modellers that the market scales.   We have found with many of our projects that the 2mm version sells at least as well as 4mm.

 

This may be because fewer customers seem to individually buy more of most things, probably relfecting that their layouts tend to feature scale length trains rather than truncated ones.

 

I appreciate that some customers may have missed the expressions of interest but it was widely publicised on our website and on here and is the only hard data we have.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

Hi Ben,

 

Thanks for your reply, but I’m struggling to understand the logic here? If 2mm versions sell ‘at least as well as 4mm’ then how can the FNW version be viable in 2mm but not 4mm? Last weekend Dapol announced an (arguably less geographically spread,) model with the class 323 EMU and have offered six liveries from the outset in 4mm, which seems at odds with your two offered for the 4mm 175. I don’t think expressions of interest tell you anything - it’s easy for anyone to say ‘I’ll buy two of those and three of those’ but the fact that you had little response would suggest the message didn’t get out there to the intended audience. I regularly read RMWeb and read all of the modelling press and didn’t see anything and I’m a massive DMU fan! I’m not saying all of this to be a thorn in your side, but I think your pendulum has gone from one extreme to another with the livery options offered (early Pendolino options and 321 spring to mind). My concern if that you’re going to end up stifling your potential sales and the viability of projects, which would be a great shame, when you produce such great products. 

[WCML100]

1 hour ago, nickb4141 said:

Hi Ben,

 

Thanks for your reply, but I’m struggling to understand the logic here? If 2mm versions sell ‘at least as well as 4mm’ then how can the FNW version be viable in 2mm but not 4mm? Last weekend Dapol announced an (arguably less geographically spread,) model with the class 323 EMU and have offered six liveries from the outset in 4mm, which seems at odds with your two offered for the 4mm 175. I don’t think expressions of interest tell you anything - it’s easy for anyone to say ‘I’ll buy two of those and three of those’ but the fact that you had little response would suggest the message didn’t get out there to the intended audience. I regularly read RMWeb and read all of the modelling press and didn’t see anything and I’m a massive DMU fan! I’m not saying all of this to be a thorn in your side, but I think your pendulum has gone from one extreme to another with the livery options offered (early Pendolino options and 321 spring to mind). My concern if that you’re going to end up stifling your potential sales and the viability of projects, which would be a great shame, when you produce such great products. 

As much as I am a fan of barbie livery, and one of these on a 175 would look great, its most likely the shortest lived livery and I can imagine as it is not current it wont be picked up as much. 
 

The comments regarding the previous releases of pendos and 321’s, well maybe they are learning from experience of how well (or not…) larger variety of liveries sell under one batch. 
 

I think the expressions of interest was well publicised on here and elsewhere. For me first thing I do when something is announced I am interested in is turn the ‘follow’ button on for that particular thread. That way I don’t miss any talk or information regarding them.

[Revolution Ben]

2 hours ago, nickb4141 said:

Hi Ben,

 

Thanks for your reply, but I’m struggling to understand the logic here? If 2mm versions sell ‘at least as well as 4mm’ then how can the FNW version be viable in 2mm but not 4mm? Last weekend Dapol announced an (arguably less geographically spread,) model with the class 323 EMU and have offered six liveries from the outset in 4mm, which seems at odds with your two offered for the 4mm 175. I don’t think expressions of interest tell you anything - it’s easy for anyone to say ‘I’ll buy two of those and three of those’ but the fact that you had little response would suggest the message didn’t get out there to the intended audience. I regularly read RMWeb and read all of the modelling press and didn’t see anything and I’m a massive DMU fan! I’m not saying all of this to be a thorn in your side, but I think your pendulum has gone from one extreme to another with the livery options offered (early Pendolino options and 321 spring to mind). My concern if that you’re going to end up stifling your potential sales and the viability of projects, which would be a great shame, when you produce such great products. 

 

Hi there,

 

We are exploring other options - such as involving retailers.  If that works we will obviously confirm that on our website etc but right now FNW isn't in the mix.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[The Pilotman]

12 hours ago, nickb4141 said:

the fact that you had little response would suggest the message didn’t get out there to the intended audience

Or, more likely, the fact they had little response would suggest that not many people want one? Clearly there was enough interest in the ones they are doing otherwise Revolution Trains wouldn’t be doing the model at all. If you’re so sure the version you want is viable, perhaps you could approach a suitable retailer in the target area for the livery in question and see if they’re interested in commissioning one. So far, on here at least, you seem to be the only voice in favour of the version you want. 

Edited December 2, 2023 by The Pilotman

[CazRail]

There are more than just a few people who are interested in a First Barbie 175 or 180, just not enough at this stage to justify the production of one. 

 

I'm one of them, but I totally understand the situation, and have ordered the Arriva versions as they fit my timescale aswell. 

 

I'm glad to see that other avenues are being explored though, as it would be a shame for the Barbie ones not to be produced. 

 

If all else fails, there is also another option, which is a respray(which I understand is more do-able/affordable/desirable for some than others), which is the option I'm currently exploring as a last resort.

[VXDH92]

I wonder how interest is gauged generally without a survey? For example, how were the liveries chosen that are going ahead? There must be some method to it (though I am just being curious, not necessarily expecting anyone to answer).

 

Would be interesting to see a poll with all possible liveries and see which people would be most likely to order. I wonder how much more popular the chosen liveries are more than FNW.

 

For me, I would really like to see the FNW ones as they're the only ones that fit into my time frame and geographical area of modelling. But I did fill in the expression of interest form and it's up to Revolution to choose if they believe it to be viable or not (which sadly sounds unlikely for now).

[Revolution Ben]

 

Hi all,

 

There is no right or wrong answer when you are talking about speculative purchases on non-essential luxury goods of any kind.

 

Revolution is still a young company (though it is our tenth birthday next year!) so while we have some experience now we don't pretend to be perfect.  But we learned with the N 321 that offering too many options, then cancelling some, will cause disappointment and a little backlash.  This was not an enjoyable experience for us personally - we are only human after all.

 

So our approach now is to manage expectations early and only offer options for sale that we fully intend to produce.

 

At the moment, as one person said accurately to us at Warley, the early privatisation sector seems to be somewhat overlooked.  I thinik this is probably a generational thing - retailers tell us that BR blue has superceded BR steam/diesel transition as the most popular modelling period, and NSE/sectorisation is coming up fast.  Present day is always popular to a significant proportion of the demographic too.  But I imagine that early privatisation will become more popular in another five years or so, so if we cannot make it happen this time then we may well revisit it in future.

 

In the meantime, as others have said, repainting is always an option.   At least the train is being manufactured!

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[Roy L S]

3 hours ago, Revolution Ben said:

 

I thinik this is probably a generational thing - retailers tell us that BR blue has superceded BR steam/diesel transition as the most popular modelling period, and NSE/sectorisation is coming up fast.  

 

I

I would be interested to know which retailers Ben, because that doesn't accord with ones I know and have spoken to, who say it is steam/diesel transition that sells best, and speaking specifically of diesels it is still always the green locos and DMUs that sell through first - just try finding them!

 

However I would contend that the simple reality is that with erratic supply of anything in recent times it is pretty much impossible to draw any real conclusions. For example until very recently supply of Farish BR carmine and cream, maroon and blue/grey Mk1 coaches has been non-existent, and they are only just starting to appear in numbers now so too early to see what sells through first, and without the bread and butter Mk1 coach which was a feature of much of all of these eras how is it remotely possible to know? The transition modeller has also had Dapol Gresley coaches etc as a bit of a backup but for the BR blue modeller by comparison supply of a range of M2s from Farish has been to be generous very sketchy and Dapol loco hauled M3s only cover the later part of the period.

 

An additional factor relating more specifically to steam is that there has been a long period where the main producer (Bachmann) wasn't producing much at all, and people can't buy what isn't on the shelves. Thankfully that situation is now improving and not just from Bachmann, we now have EFE, Sonic and Dapol with products coming through and in development. 

 

I would also challenge the assumption that it is generational and people typically model what they remember, it is far less simplistic than that, there are a whole host of different reasons why people choose to model eras and regions, often nothing to do with when and where they grew up. It certainly isn't the case for modelling colleagues at my Club whose ages range widely (as most do I suspect), many of barely remember steam, yet most model transition era and none of them model BR blue as their primary era in any scale. The 28 year old in our N gauge group's predominant interest is Great Western/BR WR and he wasn't born until after Privatisation.

 

What I think can be said for certain is that the plethora of the more modern liveries are far less popular, you only have to look at what is in the bargain bins. You won't find BR much from the transition era or BR blue for that matter,  it is much more often the more modern liveries you find heavily discounted - just look at the example of the most recent Farish 31 - BR green are long gone, but some of the more recent liveries like the RTC and "Network Rail" ones are still available and at heavy discounts, then there are the recently released Class 90s and upgraded 60s, already easily found discounted by getting on for 25%. 

 

Bringing this back to the subject of 175 and 180 (which both look fantastic thus far) I think given the lack of popularity of a fair number of modern liveries as demonstrated by slow sales of even some recent releases, the RevolutioN strategy of being very considered with livery choices, targeting fewer liveries and ones you are confident will sell, simply has to be the right approach. 

 

Regards

 

Roy

[nickb4141]

15 hours ago, The Pilotman said:

Or, more likely, the fact they had little response would suggest that not many people want one? Clearly there was enough interest in the ones they are doing otherwise Revolution Trains wouldn’t be doing the model at all. If you’re so sure the version you want is viable, perhaps you could approach a suitable retailer in the target area for the livery in question and see if they’re interested in commissioning one. So far, on here at least, you seem to be the only voice in favour of the version you want. 

If you’ve been following this thread from the beginning, you’ll see quite a number of people stating they were going to purchase 4mm First North Western 175’s, so I’m certainly not the only one who wanted this livery before it was pulled - take a look, you might be surprised just how many there are!

[nickb4141]

On 01/12/2023 at 22:23, WCML100 said:

As much as I am a fan of barbie livery, and one of these on a 175 would look great, its most likely the shortest lived livery and I can imagine as it is not current it wont be picked up as much. 
 

The comments regarding the previous releases of pendos and 321’s, well maybe they are learning from experience of how well (or not…) larger variety of liveries sell under one batch. 
 

I think the expressions of interest was well publicised on here and elsewhere. For me first thing I do when something is announced I am interested in is turn the ‘follow’ button on for that particular thread. That way I don’t miss any talk or information regarding them.

….whilst not a current livery, the ‘Barbie livery was around for about ten years, albeit later debranded with new operators names added.  It was certainly around for longer than the last livery, which is now obsolete, seeing as the units have now been withdrawn by Transport for Wales. Anyone modelling the Cumbrian coast to Barrow, Blackpool, Windermere, Lancaster, Preston or Manchester areas sadly doesn’t have an excuse to buy a few units. 

[TomScrut]

12 hours ago, Roy L S said:

What I think can be said for certain is that the plethora of the more modern liveries are far less popular, you only have to look at what is in the bargain bins. You won't find BR much from the transition era or BR blue for that matter,  it is much more often the more modern liveries you find heavily discounted

 

Maybe that more applies to N than OO; looking at Rails bargains section (as it numbers the amount of each era)

 

OO:

 

In OO, it is more balanced, with era 8 having the most bargains but still a lot of era 5-7 bargains. Understandable dip for Era 6 as I expect there's less Era 6 releases than 5 and 7. Era 9 is skewed as Bachmann regard era 9 as 1995-present day so some stuff from 9 on here should be in 10 or 11.

 

I'd be interested to know, however, whether later stuff doesn't sell as well, or if it is because (IMO at least), there is more variety in liveries meaning more releases but still a similar uptake? There does seem to be a lot of post privatisation modellers in OO. There does seem to be a lot of sectorisation stuff which I expect is to do with the variety of liveries.

 

Also skewing the balance is the amount of Hornby mk3s and mk4s on offer, and Bachmann mk2s.

 

However, in N:

 

Hardly anything until era 8, then quite a lot of stuff.

 

I wonder if the demographic for era of interest varies with scale. I am into era 11, but I'd probably not consider N for there isn't the variety there is in OO (although it is getting better).

Edited December 3, 2023 by TomScrut

[The Pilotman]

16 hours ago, nickb4141 said:

If you’ve been following this thread from the beginning, you’ll see quite a number of people stating they were going to purchase 4mm First North Western 175’s, so I’m certainly not the only one who wanted this livery before it was pulled - take a look, you might be surprised just how many there are!

Fair enough, I hadn’t been following this thread from the beginning so I did take a look and found the number of people stating that they would purchase a 4mm First North Western 175 was fewer than ten. Of those, I think at least one of those expressing an interest has an N gauge layout. As this model is out of my area and era of interest, I don’t know whether I’m surprised or not. But it’s hardly a glowing endorsement, so I’m not surprised that the version isn’t going ahead, based on that figure, and the apparent lack of expressions of interest directly to Revolution Trains earlier this year. 

Edited December 3, 2023 by The Pilotman

[big jim]

To me a FNW version is probably the most versatile of the liveries as it can be rebranded for use on mid 2000s ATW based layout too

 

Admittedly I didn’t express an interest in any particular 175 even though I want one and was just going to order whatever took my fancy when the books opened, I suppose I shot myself in the foot regards the FNW one, it used to guard them and it was the first unit I drove when doing my handling hours with FNW then I drove them rebranded with ATW (it was also the last unit I I drove for them) But that was the weird interim livery ATW one 

 

 

 

 

[nickb4141]

4 hours ago, The Pilotman said:

Fair enough, I hadn’t been following this thread from the beginning so I did take a look and found the number of people stating that they would purchase a 4mm First North Western 175 was fewer than ten. Of those, I think at least one of those expressing an interest has an N gauge layout. As this model is out of my area and era of interest, I don’t know whether I’m surprised or not. But it’s hardly a glowing endorsement, so I’m not surprised that the version isn’t going ahead, based on that figure, and the apparent lack of expressions of interest directly to Revolution Trains earlier this year. 

….and if you counted the Welsh livery versions, (bearing in mind there are two options,) it wasn’t much more, so based on your theory, none of the livery options would be viable! Let me just ask you this, if you were investing your money in a project, how many 2mm models do you realistically think would outsell a direct 4mm equivalent? If you’re being honest, I think the answer would be very few or none. If that is the case, then how can the FNW version be viable in 2mm, but not in 4mm? If just doesn’t stack up! If 4mm versions are such poor sellers for Revolution, then why bother? Perhaps the answer is to share development costs with Accurascale and let them produce the 4mm versions and Revolution the 2mm versions, which I’m sure someone will correct me, if I’m wrong, but was pretty much what happened with the Mk5 Transpennine & Caledonian Sleeper coaches.