British outline 1:120 TT from Heljan

[woodenhead]

I think I will just wait 18 months and see where we are.

 

It's nice getting excited and everything but so far we have some track, a wagon, some GWR buildings and a class 31 which will arrive some time in 2024 most likely.

 

I'm not about to sell all my N or OO on this.

[adb968008]

If i’m following this correctly, TT at 1:120 accurately matches the spec used in Europe ?

 

Does that mean UK stock would be accurately sized next to European stock, rather than oversize as we have with HO/OO ?

 

if so, then I think I find that rather attractive myself..

 

[MartinRS]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

If i’m following this correctly, TT at 1:120 accurately matches the spec used in Europe ?

 

Does that mean UK stock would be accurately sized next to European stock, rather than oversize as we have with HO/OO ?

 

if so, then I think I find that rather attractive myself..

 

Craig Tiley, in the July Railway Modeller editorial stated, 'To explain: rather than perpetuating the hybrid combination of 3mm:1ft scale and 12mm gauge track that was adopted by Tri-ang for its TT range during the 1950s and '60s, Peco has instead chosen the accurate scale and gauge combination of 2.54mm:1ft on 12mm track. This equates to a ratio of 1:120 (hence the term TT:120) which represents a brand new scale for commercial items in British outline.

[DCB]

Sounds like Rivarossi and Lima with their forays into UK outline H0.   They didn't end well.

1:100 is the absolute bog standard architectural modelling scale so if anyone is launching a new scale 3mm/ft 1:100 ish has to be a bit of a no brainer.   Doesn't it?    Could be a lot of cheap 1:120 stock on sale soon when people get fed up with such a miniscule range of UK outline stock.

[JSpencer]

3 hours ago, DCB said:

Sounds like Rivarossi and Lima with their forays into UK outline H0.   They didn't end well.

1:100 is the absolute bog standard architectural modelling scale so if anyone is launching a new scale 3mm/ft 1:100 ish has to be a bit of a no brainer.   Doesn't it?    Could be a lot of cheap 1:120 stock on sale soon when people get fed up with such a miniscule range of UK outline stock.

 

I've always felt that 1/100th scale  would be the perfect scale for me which can go across planes, tanks, boats and trains. Making a model of a destroyer (warship) in 1/100th scale is a lot easier to handle than one in 1/76th. Of course it is too late in my life to start changing from 00 to TT which in this case is 1/120th and therefore too small to match 1/100th scale plane, tank and boat kits. And would ideally need 14+mm wide track.

It is going to be interesting to watch but I suspect most people in the hobby are well established in their scales to want to start afresh in TT. And if a change in scale occurs, it is normally to O gauge so their eyes have a better chance of seeing it!

[andythenorth]

4 hours ago, DCB said:

Sounds like Rivarossi and Lima with their forays into UK outline H0.   They didn't end well.

1:100 is the absolute bog standard architectural modelling scale so if anyone is launching a new scale 3mm/ft 1:100 ish has to be a bit of a no brainer.   Doesn't it?    Could be a lot of cheap 1:120 stock on sale soon when people get fed up with such a miniscule range of UK outline stock.

 

This hobby horse has already been done to death in the Peco thread.  😉

 

1:100 isn't TT:120.

 

As Peco and Heljan are launching TT:120 products, using 1:100 as the scale would have been a really very basic error.

 

Wouldn't it?  

 

Really? 😀

Edited June 15, 2022 by andythenorth

[adb968008]

I assume thats a yes then ?

 

apologies for being thick at the back… its all TT to me.

 

But i’m interested.

[JohnR]

9 hours ago, woodenhead said:

I'm not about to sell all my N or OO on this.

 

I dont think anyone was expecting people to sell all their existing stock in order to take part. 

[woodenhead]

10 minutes ago, JohnR said:

 

I dont think anyone was expecting people to sell all their existing stock in order to take part. 

Then I would not be participating, in fact I am tired of TT already and it's not even here yet.

 

Between two (now three) threads there are over 30 pages of speculation - some actual models yes, but mainly, who, when, what and wants.  So as I mentioned, I will wait 18 months and see if this is a real opportunity or not.

[bradfordbuffer]

32 minutes ago, andythenorth said:

 

This hobby horse has already been done to death in the Peco thread.  😉

 

1:100 isn't TT:120.

 

As Peco and Heljan are launching TT:120 products, using 1:100 as the scale would have been a really very basic error.

 

Wouldn't it?  

 

Really?

I agree with above statement...no (mainstream) manufacturer in this day and age would would produce/introduce 3mm scale with 12mm track/wheels standards for main stream 3mm modelers and any one wishing to change up to 14.2mm could do so at there own will just like oo to em/p4, oo is so well established no one notices if treated well (many lovely layouts in oo.....) 20 + years ago it might of been different as modelers where treated like like it or lump it so a 3mm scale 12mm gauge range might of took off

[bradfordbuffer]

53 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Then I would not be participating, in fact I am tired of TT already and it's not even here yet.

 

Between two (now three) threads there are over 30 pages of speculation - some actual models yes, but mainly, who, when, what and wants.  So as I mentioned, I will wait 18 months and see if this is a real opportunity or not.

TT totally tired 🤣

 

Use red bar at top of page! ...But you will stay with us.....don't go!

 

Nothing wrong with healthy discussion with a good spattering of speculation 

[Vanguard 5374]

11 hours ago, bradfordbuffer said:

Quite....but if you done a straw poll at a biggish model show and asked what TT was /is answer would in excess of 70% be.... tt oh triang can't get it any more! Nice scale! Or 3mm society! 

 

Room for all scales...I'm sure some lovely minimum space urban stations going to appear with new Heljan 31 and what ever other surprises to pop up in coming weeks...

 

If not a state secret what is production run in numbers of 31?

You state that 70% of people would vote for it being 3mm to the foot, but that would only be the case in the United Kingdom. 
 

I’m glad that Heljan and Peco are going down the 1/120 route, it’s a shame that we didn’t adopt HO in this country many years as it did have a following from the get go. British HO exists as a scale, so perhaps we will see 1/101.3 become the fringe scale with 1/120 becoming the well supported scale. Wouldn’t be shocked at this stage to see other companies come forward with British outline models. A few years ago I wouldn’t have thought we would have a market of RTR O gauge and OO9 models, but look at the state of play today.

[bradfordbuffer]

9 minutes ago, Vanguard 5374 said:

You state that 70% of people would vote for it being 3mm to the foot, but that would only be the case in the United Kingdom. 
 

I’m glad that Heljan and Peco are going down the 1/120 route, it’s a shame that we didn’t adopt HO in this country many years as it did have a following from the get go. British HO exists as a scale, so perhaps we will see 1/101.3 become the fringe scale with 1/120 becoming the well supported scale. Wouldn’t be shocked at this stage to see other companies come forward with British outline models. A few years ago I wouldn’t have thought we would have a market of RTR O gauge and OO9 models, but look at the state of play today.

Yep should of stated uk model show! Only visited one euro show ....the big one in Holland! Didn't think about doing straw poll there as all talking euro trash! Bloody hood show...3mm may move to fringes?.....thought we where there already? I do hope tt120 takes off big ....I want the 'naughty' figures that are avaliable in HO! Got to have a 'city sauna' in model form the scale difference will not be to noticable as humans are available in all different sizes!...hight!!...dirty mind....que the abuse!

[GordonC]

23 minutes ago, Vanguard 5374 said:

You state that 70% of people would vote for it being 3mm to the foot, but that would only be the case in the United Kingdom. 
 

I’m glad that Heljan and Peco are going down the 1/120 route, it’s a shame that we didn’t adopt HO in this country many years as it did have a following from the get go. British HO exists as a scale, so perhaps we will see 1/101.3 become the fringe scale with 1/120 becoming the well supported scale. Wouldn’t be shocked at this stage to see other companies come forward with British outline models. A few years ago I wouldn’t have thought we would have a market of RTR O gauge and OO9 models, but look at the state of play today.

 

is it getting to the point that RTR manufacturers see more potential sales in a new scale than they do updating or improving existing N or 00 models?

[Revolution Mike]

I think this is a great move by Heljan (even if I’d have preferred a 37!) and I think that there will be others watching developments carefully!

 

Certainly there are various bits of stock that has run across the channel that might appeal to UK and continental modellers if done in TT-120. 
 

cheers Mike

Edited June 15, 2022 by Revolution Mike

[Allegheny1600]

9 hours ago, adb968008 said:

If i’m following this correctly, TT at 1:120 accurately matches the spec used in Europe ?

 

Does that mean UK stock would be accurately sized next to European stock, rather than oversize as we have with HO/OO ?

 

if so, then I think I find that rather attractive myself..

 

Yes!

The scale of 1:120 is as used across Europe so everything will match. UK rolling stock will therefore look slightly smaller than its European equivalent - as it is in real life.

You are quite right, this is a very attractive feature, also the look of the stock on the track will be correct too, as with the very fine scale gauges.

Hoorah!

[Pmorgancym]

6 hours ago, DCB said:

Sounds like Rivarossi and Lima with their forays into UK outline H0.   They didn't end well.

1:100 is the absolute bog standard architectural modelling scale so if anyone is launching a new scale 3mm/ft 1:100 ish has to be a bit of a no brainer.   Doesn't it?    Could be a lot of cheap 1:120 stock on sale soon when people get fed up with such a miniscule range of UK outline stock.

Riverside and Limas entrants weren't exactly the best examples.  If someone produced a tt120 model to that embodied the standards we see in n and 00 today, I think it would be a seller

[Phil Parker]

25 minutes ago, Pmorgancym said:

Riverside and Limas entrants weren't exactly the best examples.  If someone produced a tt120 model to that embodied the standards we see in n and 00 today, I think it would be a seller

 

The world has also moved on too. For a start, the collectors market is a lot larger, they aren't so fussy what scale something is as long as it looks good. In fact, the smaller scale would allow them to fit more models in a cabinet.

[bradfordbuffer]

29 minutes ago, Pmorgancym said:

Riverside and Limas entrants weren't exactly the best examples.  If someone produced a tt120 model to that embodied the standards we see in n and 00 today, I think it would be a seller

Brace yourself Pmorgancym.....the spelling police will be on to you! I'm with you there is very often spellchecker errors in my post! There are several reasons!:-

•I'm thick

•Can't spell

•Looks right so must be right

•I'm thick

•Spellchecker error

•Spellchecker changes as you press send to make you look thick

•or we are thick!

 

G

[Pmorgancym]

19 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

The world has also moved on too. For a start, the collectors market is a lot larger, they aren't so fussy what scale something is as long as it looks good. In fact, the smaller scale would allow them to fit more models in a cabinet.

I think something new also.  We've not had anything as excitingly new as an entirely new scale in my life time.

[Allegheny1600]

26 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

The world has also moved on too. For a start, the collectors market is a lot larger, they aren't so fussy what scale something is as long as it looks good. In fact, the smaller scale would allow them to fit more models in a cabinet.

Too true!

Also, which I think is a point that few in the UK appreciate, is that European (and world wide?) collectors will buy British items because they are often very pretty and they like them. They will also run British trains on their own layouts, even if they are of European prototypes.

Because it’s nice to run something different.

The key point is that the scale matches what they have. I have seen and conversed with numerous people in Europe who would have loved some British outline models that run on 16.5mm gauge track but they won’t because 00 isn’t H0 and looks horrible next to it.

With British TT at 1:120 scale, there is a substantial potential market available.

Now, if only we could export such models into some sort of free trade zone, oh dear!

[DCB]

1 hour ago, Pmorgancym said:

Riverside and Limas entrants weren't exactly the best examples.  If someone produced a tt120 model to that embodied the standards we see in n and 00 today, I think it would be a seller

Auto carrot strikes again.   

 

 

[Steven B]

It's interesting that Heljan are more confident in launching a TT 1:120 model than anything in N (British or continental).

 

Stevenn

[adb968008]

4 minutes ago, Steven B said:

It's interesting that Heljan are more confident in launching a TT 1:120 model than anything in N (British or continental).

 

Stevenn

Greenfield market.

 

A class 37 maybe a popular choice dozens of them ran on the continent. Class 92’s still do.

[DCB]

47 minutes ago, Allegheny1600 said:

Too true!

Also, which I think is a point that few in the UK appreciate, is that European (and world wide?) collectors will buy British items because they are often very pretty and they like them. They will also run British trains on their own layouts, even if they are of European prototypes.

Because it’s nice to run something different.

The key point is that the scale matches what they have. I have seen and conversed with numerous people in Europe who would have loved some British outline models that run on 16.5mm gauge track but they won’t because 00 isn’t H0 and looks horrible next to it.

With British TT at 1:120 scale, there is a substantial potential market available.

Now, if only we could export such models into some sort of free trade zone, oh dear!

There is an element of that, but continental outline modellers don't have the range of models that BR WR modellers have to enable most of the trains running on a specific line to be modelled. Not all but a lot are mix and match, unless the entire stock is 0-10-0 tanks like the Hartz(?) mountain lines.   French, German, Italian etc trains happily mix and match so why not chuck in a few UK locos, the Belgians did with Caley 0-6-0 and 4-6-0s and the French had a batch of HR Castles.   Cock of the North ran in France, Dean Goods, Robinson RODs, etc likewise, and KGV  a Royal Scot and Duchess of Hamilton ran in the US so maybe a nice Dean Goods would be a good starting point.  Diesel wise the 66 and 08 have to be no brainers, 37 maybe.  Otherwise go US style where a huge proportion of their layouts seem to feature a  freelance operator, "Paris and Birmingham",  or "Death Valley and Paridise" with locos lettered for these fictitious pikes whereas only a tiny proportion of UK outline seem to do it these days.     Still I don't blame Peco really.   UK made track is so good some of mine must  be 60 years old and going strong, and I've no plans to buy more any time soon, now If I changed gauge...   It would be TT3 not TT

 

Edited June 15, 2022 by DCB