British outline 1:120 TT from Heljan

[spamcan61]

10 minutes ago, Steven B said:

It's interesting that Heljan are more confident in launching a TT 1:120 model than anything in N (British or continental).

 

Stevenn

I guess they figure  having 100%* of an as yet unknown market is better than trying to get 10-20% (or whatever they would need to make money) of a mature market. Glad it's not my money.

 

*Unless another established player announces TT:120 loco(s) in the meantime.

Edited June 15, 2022 by spamcan61

[JohnR]

2 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

I guess they figure  having 100%* of an as yet unknown market is better than trying to get 10-20% (or whatever they would need to make money) of a mature market. Glad it's not my money.

 

*Unless another established player announces TT:120 loco(s) in the meantime.

 

I think any additional announcements by other manufacturers will only be expanding the market at this time. 

[spamcan61]

7 minutes ago, JohnR said:

 

I think any additional announcements by other manufacturers will only be expanding the market at this time. 

Agreed, unless it's a Class 31... 

[Andy Hayter]

I wish Heljan, Peco and others well with this project.  I do wonder however if 1:120 is sufficiently bigger than UK N at 1:148 to really attract a new clientele. 

 

This is not, repeat not a call for 1:100 which would just continue the UK mistake of mismatched scale and gauge.  

 

Perhaps it is that fidelity of gauge and scale that will be the selling point for modellers.  Let's hope so.

[bradfordbuffer]

18 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

I wish Heljan, Peco and others well with this project.  I do wonder however if 1:120 is sufficiently bigger than UK N at 1:148 to really attract a new clientele. 

 

This is not, repeat not a call for 1:100 which would just continue the UK mistake of mismatched scale and gauge.  

 

Perhaps it is that fidelity of gauge and scale that will be the selling point for modellers.  Let's hope so.

Err 3mm scale with 14.2 gauge track...although not absolutely proto3....is just like em in 4mm! Happy compromise? Just needs snazzy logo!

TT120 will represent scale / gauge but there will be compromise some where...

 

Would like to see a group of modelers model a real location (ie Ashburton...etc) in all the scales from 2mm to 7mm line them up at a show! That would show differences 

[HonestTom]

12 hours ago, adb968008 said:

If i’m following this correctly, TT at 1:120 accurately matches the spec used in Europe ?

 

Does that mean UK stock would be accurately sized next to European stock, rather than oversize as we have with HO/OO ?

 

if so, then I think I find that rather attractive myself..

 

This is why I'm slightly surprised that the first big locomotive announcement is a class 31. I would have thought the big attraction of a scale with international compatibility would be the fact that so many modern locomotives, wagons, multiple units and buildings can be used internationally. Obviously there's the suggested Gaugemaster Class 66, which is more what I was expecting.

 

I would be interested to know Heljan's reasoning for this one. I don't mean that in a snarky, rhetorical way, I genuinely am curious.

44 minutes ago, Steven B said:

It's interesting that Heljan are more confident in launching a TT 1:120 model than anything in N (British or continental).

 

Stevenn

N is a well-established scale and a lot of the obvious models have already been covered. Here, we have a market where everything is new. The potential sales for basic, useful items such as 16t mineral wagons, vent vans or Mk 1 coaches are huge if the scale catches on.

[wombatofludham]

Given Heljan's past track record for making a go of O gauge RTR (mainly diesel) which many said would flop because it's too big and expensive, I wouldn't like to bet against them making a go of TT.  Unless they've started adding Herbes du Marrakesh to their morning pastries, I expect that we're on the cusp of something new and exciting.

Heljan will be getting a reputation for being a bit like those "bellweather" constituencies political psephologists like to measure for predicting trends.

[Fat Controller]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Greenfield market.

 

A class 37 maybe a popular choice dozens of them ran on the continent. Class 92’s still do.

Just not very far in most cases...

[Allegheny1600]

1 hour ago, DCB said:

There is an element of that, but continental outline modellers don't have the range of models that BR WR modellers have to enable most of the trains running on a specific line to be modelled. Not all but a lot are mix and match, unless the entire stock is 0-10-0 tanks like the Hartz(?) mountain lines.   French, German, Italian etc trains happily mix and match so why not chuck in a few UK locos, the Belgians did with Caley 0-6-0 and 4-6-0s and the French had a batch of HR Castles.   Cock of the North ran in France, Dean Goods, Robinson RODs, etc likewise, and KGV  a Royal Scot and Duchess of Hamilton ran in the US so maybe a nice Dean Goods would be a good starting point.  Diesel wise the 66 and 08 have to be no brainers, 37 maybe.  Otherwise go US style where a huge proportion of their layouts seem to feature a  freelance operator, "Paris and Birmingham",  or "Death Valley and Paridise" with locos lettered for these fictitious pikes whereas only a tiny proportion of UK outline seem to do it these days.     Still I don't blame Peco really.   UK made track is so good some of mine must  be 60 years old and going strong, and I've no plans to buy more any time soon, now If I changed gauge...   It would be TT3 not TT

 

I’m sorry, I don’t understand what you mean.

If you’re picking up my comment about Euro based modellers running the odd British train on their layout - that’s not anything that needs any justification. That’s entirely about enjoying the trains they own and giving them a run, no more than that.

My round robin of friends do this all the time, the only restriction is on having fun.

Cheers,

 John 

[61661]

22 hours ago, bradfordbuffer said:

Class 104 dmu for full nostalgia! Just don't copy under length triang MK1's 

Well, we do have the 104 coming OO! ;-) 

[hmrspaul]

Given my understanding that this is a scale/gauge combination used in mainland Europe are there any European models already suitable for ferry/chunnel use as these would be smaller than the mainland only European wagons. Plenty of European wagons have worked here for many years. 

 

Paul

[Neil]

1 hour ago, bradfordbuffer said:

...

 

Would like to see a group of modelers model a real location (ie Ashburton...etc) in all the scales from 2mm to 7mm line them up at a show! That would show differences 

 

Unfortunately it would also be stupendously dull.

[andythenorth]

2 hours ago, hmrspaul said:

Given my understanding that this is a scale/gauge combination used in mainland Europe are there any European models already suitable for ferry/chunnel use as these would be smaller than the mainland only European wagons.

 

I had a look through the current Tillig, Arnold, Roco etc online listings.  There's quite an extensive range, including sliding wall vans and curtain roof flats, but I suspect they're not to UK loading gauge (for example Habbillns rather than Habfis).

Also 2 axle stake and open wagons, and some vans and fridge vans that would pass for ferry-fitted...but again might be out of gauge.

 

There are also a lot of tank wagons, both bogie and 2 axle, which might pass, but they don't have ferry fittings for those who are being scrupulous.   There are also SNCF cone silos which might pass for the ones that worked in the UK.

 

I've used your site a lot in the past for reference to ferry wagon prototypes, thanks 🙂 

There's also a steam era ferry fridge van from Arnold in various meat / fish company liveries. 

 

There's a bogie open that is similar to modern GBRF / Freightliner / Touax wagons, but doesn't match any exact UK diagram (notably has doors).

 

Here's a spread of Tillig links, many out of stock currently, but eh.

https://www.tillig.com/eng/Produkte/produktinfo-01677.html

https://www.tillig.com/eng/Produkte/produktinfo-01769.html

https://www.tillig.com/eng/Produkte/produktinfo-15000.html

https://www.tillig.com/eng/Produkte/produktinfo-15035.html

https://www.tillig.com/eng/Produkte/produktinfo-15745.html

https://www.tillig.com/eng/Produkte/produktinfo-15804.html

https://www.tillig.com/eng/Produkte/produktinfo-01050.html

https://www.tillig.com/eng/Produkte/produktinfo-01631.html

https://www.tillig.com/eng/Produkte/produktinfo-01681.html

https://www.tillig.com/eng/Produkte/produktinfo-14694.html

https://www.tillig.com/eng/Produkte/produktinfo-14761.html

 

 

 

 

Edited June 15, 2022 by andythenorth

[D6332]

Gauge wars... 0 gauge was 1:45 based on 1.25 inch track to 4ft 8.25"

It was that silly metric system that muddied the waters, so we have 1:43.5 ,1:48 and 32mm O gauge and Scale 7 diehards at 33mm which is almost right as 32.98mm is correct!  So a true Irish 3'gauge is simpler at 8/10 inch track 1:45  021 is hard, and 0 16.5 is way off!¡

 

So Triang 1 to 100 gave a track gauge of 9/16 inch. There

Edited June 15, 2022 by D6332

[markw]

The Arnold refrigerator van appears to be a genuine ferry van.

https://uk.arnoldmodel.com/products/arnold-tt-1120-db-2-unit-set-2-axle-ferryboat-refrigerated-wagons-gfhks-transthermos-kuhlverkehr-livery-period-iv-hn9724

 

Gfhks/Gfkhs Built from 1935. Retired by 1969.

 

https://modellbahnfrokler.de/archiv/zeichnung-t.html

Edited June 15, 2022 by markw
extra space for clarity

[DCB]

4 hours ago, Allegheny1600 said:

I’m sorry, I don’t understand what you mean.

If you’re picking up my comment about Euro based modellers running the odd British train on their layout - that’s not anything that needs any justification. That’s entirely about enjoying the trains they own and giving them a run, no more than that.

My round robin of friends do this all the time, the only restriction is on having fun.

Cheers,

 John 

There is a sliding scale with Buckingham near one end, everything authentic to period, to a sequence or time table though a freelance location,  and at the other typically a 16.5 mm test track on which you run anything from 0 16.5 NG through 00 H0 to 3mm Broad gauge.    What UK outline modellers can buy RTR is just about everything which worked on BR WR south Devon around 1957. and a big chunk of what worked on the LMR 1957 and the SR 1965  they can pretty much operate a location and period correct railway with RTR stock. The range of continental models is spread much more thinly geographically and chronologically so that sort of fidelity is much more difficult,    USA modellers often re livery their stock for a fictitious road, then again they run 12 reefers behind an ABBA unit or Challenger to represent a train of 100 wagons, or 3 miles long which ever is the longer.

I happily run Polly, a 140c, a Triang Davy Crockett (4-6-0 conversion) etc on my test track,  with 5 Triang Diesels in a lash up on occasions but its WR 1957-62 when showing the layout to visitors.

[DavidLong]

4 hours ago, HonestTom said:

N is a well-established scale and a lot of the obvious models have already been covered.

 

Like the later body Class 25 from Farish. Still waiting . . .

 

Tumbleweed rolls past . . . 

 

David

[DCB]

3 hours ago, Neil said:

 

Unfortunately it would also be stupendously dull.

You're mixing it up with Aberdare, its always sunshine at Ashburton.  What's wrong with 4555 ,120 cattle wagons and a Toad. Certainly cure insomnia shunting that lot.

[Allegheny1600]

3 minutes ago, DCB said:

There is a sliding scale with Buckingham near one end, everything authentic to period, to a sequence or time table though a freelance location,  and at the other typically a 16.5 mm test track on which you run anything from 0 16.5 NG through 00 H0 to 3mm Broad gauge.    What UK outline modellers can buy RTR is just about everything which worked on BR WR south Devon around 1957. and a big chunk of what worked on the LMR 1957 and the SR 1965  they can pretty much operate a location and period correct railway with RTR stock. The range of continental models is spread much more thinly geographically and chronologically so that sort of fidelity is much more difficult,    USA modellers often re livery their stock for a fictitious road, then again they run 12 reefers behind an ABBA unit or Challenger to represent a train of 100 wagons, or 3 miles long which ever is the longer.

I happily run Polly, a 140c, a Triang Davy Crockett (4-6-0 conversion) etc on my test track,  with 5 Triang Diesels in a lash up on occasions but its WR 1957-62 when showing the layout to visitors.

Thanks DCB,

I think we’re actually on the same page here, especially with your latter paragraph.

Best regards,

John

[Les1952]

4 hours ago, andythenorth said:

 

I had a look through the current Tillig, Arnold, Roco etc online listings.  There's quite an extensive range, including sliding wall vans and curtain roof flats, but I suspect they're not to UK loading gauge (for example Habbillns rather than Habfis).

Also 2 axle stake and open wagons, and some vans and fridge vans that would pass for ferry-fitted...but again might be out of gauge.

 

There are also a lot of tank wagons, both bogie and 2 axle, which might pass, but they don't have ferry fittings for those who are being scrupulous.   There are also SNCF cone silos which might pass for the ones that worked in the UK.

 

I've used your site a lot in the past for reference to ferry wagon prototypes, thanks 🙂 

There's also a steam era ferry fridge van from Arnold in various meat / fish company liveries. 

 

There's a bogie open that is similar to modern GBRF / Freightliner / Touax wagons, but doesn't match any exact UK diagram (notably has doors).

 

Here's a spread of Tillig links, many out of stock currently, but eh.

https://www.tillig.com/eng/Produkte/produktinfo-01677.html

https://www.tillig.com/eng/Produkte/produktinfo-01769.html

https://www.tillig.com/eng/Produkte/produktinfo-15000.html

https://www.tillig.com/eng/Produkte/produktinfo-15035.html

https://www.tillig.com/eng/Produkte/produktinfo-15745.html

https://www.tillig.com/eng/Produkte/produktinfo-15804.html

https://www.tillig.com/eng/Produkte/produktinfo-01050.html

https://www.tillig.com/eng/Produkte/produktinfo-01631.html

https://www.tillig.com/eng/Produkte/produktinfo-01681.html

https://www.tillig.com/eng/Produkte/produktinfo-14694.html

https://www.tillig.com/eng/Produkte/produktinfo-14761.html

 

 

 

 

 

Following that link and the links at the top of the page revealed leads to 26 pages of electric locos  (over 250 items) that Tillig have made, 15 pages of steam locos (over 140 items) and 29 pages of diesels (over 280 locos).  OK, so these are Continental locos but not bad for a "minority scale nobody much is interested in".

 

There are also 68 pages (over 670 items) of bogie passenger coaches......

 

Les

 

 

[Les1952]

1 hour ago, DCB said:

You're mixing it up with Aberdare, its always sunshine at Ashburton.  What's wrong with 4555 ,120 cattle wagons and a Toad. Certainly cure insomnia shunting that lot.

 

I would find boredom setting in very quickly.

 

Les

[Wagonmaster]

Is it me or was there a cryptic comment from Rapido a while ago about a new scale/gauge combination? I wonder now if they were they hinting at TT120?

[AY Mod]

10 minutes ago, Wagonmaster said:

Is it me or was there a cryptic comment from Rapido a while ago about a new scale/gauge combination? I wonder now if they were they hinting at TT120?

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/163586-rapido-dangles-3mm-rolling-stock-carrot/

[Wagonmaster]

11 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/163586-rapido-dangles-3mm-rolling-stock-carrot/

Ah, that was it. Thanks

[andythenorth]

32 minutes ago, Les1952 said:

 

Following that link and the links at the top of the page revealed leads to 26 pages of electric locos  (over 250 items) that Tillig have made, 15 pages of steam locos (over 140 items) and 29 pages of diesels (over 280 locos).

 

Yup.  There's also an existing ecosystem of (yes mostly European looking) buildings, scenic items, road vehicles, lighting, ISO containers, cargos, etc.  Both in shake-the-box and kit form.

There's always the possibility of Piko / Tillig / etc producing UK prototypes if there's a suitable market.  European HO manufacturers often cover a spread of countries, and TT manufacturers are already used to operating in a niche.  That is pure frothy speculation though 🙃

From a couple of other non-public conversations, I think some of the smaller UK manufacturers are open-minded to TT possibilities, especially if there's also potential European market for the vehicles.  Again speculation though. 😜

Edited June 15, 2022 by andythenorth