Hornby 2023 Speculation?

[Hroth]

14 minutes ago, MrTea said:

Has anyone suggested a BR Standard 4MT 2-6-4T yet? Would make sense to follow the 9F and it’s a class that has heritage with Hornby going back to the Dublo days. 

 

Hornby have had a Standard 4MT tank, probably a bit long in the tooth nowadays, so it could do with a revamp, along with the similar Fowler tank.

 

[Steamport Southport]

33 minutes ago, MrTea said:

Has anyone suggested a BR Standard 4MT 2-6-4T yet? Would make sense to follow the 9F and it’s a class that has heritage with Hornby going back to the Dublo days. 

 

Why when there is a perfectly good Bachmann version? More pointless duplication.

 

Hornby also has the Stanier 2 cylinder version and a Fowler 4P. They would be better off making a newer version of the latter where they could also do the different style cabs.

 

Or better still making the Fowler and Stanier 2-6-2Ts.

 

 

Jason

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, TerraNovaTrains said:

Id like to see an RSH industrial locomotive (One like Meaford No.1, Im not sure what class it is)

 

Wild speculation would be Sans Pareil and Novelty, just to complete the main Rainhill trio (Yes, theres Perseverance and Cycloped too, but the former was bad and the latter was a horse, lets ignore them).

 

 

Would the real Meaford no1 please stand up… I think 3 carried that number at different times.

There was a kit of this a few years back, sat on an electrotren chassis.

 

I’d love to see a Hudsdwell Clarke canal tank myself (at least 5 still exist) and were a very colourful few dozen on the Manchester ship canal, and others.

 

[ColinW]

As they have had the moulds out to do the purple version of a rebuilt West Country, it wouldn't surprise me to see some more of them, especially as the Severn Valley Railway have said that next year Taw Valley will be painted in wartime black, Southern numbering and sunshine lettering.

 

Colin

[TheSignalEngineer]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Why when there is a perfectly good Bachmann version? More pointless duplication.

 

Hornby also has the Stanier 2 cylinder version and a Fowler 4P. They would be better off making a newer version of the latter where they could also do the different style cabs.

 

Or better still making the Fowler and Stanier 2-6-2Ts.

Noooooo!

 

I'm just doing a Limo Cab for a Fowler 2-6-4T. Sure sign that an RTR will arrive shortly.

I would be in the market for a Stanier 3P though.🙏

[Clearwater]

Under current management, Hornby seem commercial/collector as opposed to modeller orientated.  Therefore, there is highly unlikely to be prototypes from unnamed freight only classes that only certain levels of experts can identify.  I’d see this ruling out whatever ex-lner J classes or ex-MR 0-6-0s.  I also feel it rules out prototypes withdrawn prior to 1950.  Much as I’d love to seen a Claughton, the only way I see that is as a Bachmann/rails/NRM style collaboration (cf City’s, precedents albeit originals of those class exist). I’d also note the presence of some of the Thompson Pacifics in the large retailer bargains list…

 

I also agree that a large chunk of the tooling budget will have been spent on TT.  I don’t see 8F retools or MN retools.  They’ll know how much new sales the retools of A3, 9F and `black 5 achieve.  I reckon A3 is a predictable year in year out seller. But I’m less sure of 9f new sales.  Comments here seem to be, I have x Bachmann ones.  This one is not so much better I must change.  I can’t see why the same wouldn’t be true on 8Fs or MN.  
 

so what do they do?

more nostalgia: eg Dublo castle, A4 livery (to complement coronation st?)

railroad versions of Class 50, Deltics.

tie-ins: 6027 King Charles III.  An obvious choice with a recent tooling to get value from.  Poss Pendennis / Flying Scotsman 1923 exhibition centenary pack 

 

new tools? Gwr Saint seems an obvious choice.  Class 81 electric? Any work on latter can feed into either trix or Dublo style future nostalgia packs.

 

David

[adb968008]

Things like an 8f and rebuilt MN are too tempting for other manufacturers to ignore imo.

 

 

[Les1952]

15 minutes ago, Clearwater said:

Under current management, Hornby seem commercial/collector as opposed to modeller orientated.  

 

Commercial in need to make a profit

Collectors tend to be the ones with money and space.

 

Hornby should be aiming for these two criteria under any management.   The commercial gamble is TT:120, but there will have been extensive market research into why sales of OO train sets aren't what they used to be before TT:120 UK was launched (remembering that Hornby have been in TT:120 for years under the Arnold brand)

 

Les

[Clearwater]

12 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Things like an 8f and rebuilt MN are too tempting for other manufacturers to ignore imo.

 

 

 

You may be right.  But they’d need to produce a premium model to persuade people to ‘upgrade.’  And the other manufacturers have weaker brand appeal.  The MN is more attractive but in both cases if I was a manufacturer looking at options, I’d worry that Hornby would flood the market with ‘rail road’ versions depriving me of sales.  With the large diesel classes like the 31/37, perhaps less risk.  I’d think a retooled original BoB /`WC would be more tempting to both H and competitors.  The names of shipping lines are passing from popular memory.  The BoB much less so.

[adb968008]

11 minutes ago, Clearwater said:

 

You may be right.  But they’d need to produce a premium model to persuade people to ‘upgrade.’  And the other manufacturers have weaker brand appeal.  The MN is more attractive but in both cases if I was a manufacturer looking at options, I’d worry that Hornby would flood the market with ‘rail road’ versions depriving me of sales.  With the large diesel classes like the 31/37, perhaps less risk.  I’d think a retooled original BoB /`WC would be more tempting to both H and competitors.  The names of shipping lines are passing from popular memory.  The BoB much less so.

Hornby have done so many Rebuilt MN, an WC/BB versions I doubt they could successfully flood the market.

Model Rail Database lists:

 

14 Rebuilt MN

47 Unrebuilt BoB/WC

17 Rebuilt BoB/WC

 

I suspect theres a few missing, and some like 35012 / 35028 have been done multiple times.

 

They might do a few new tender tops, and some preserved ones could be greater exploited.

 

I was dissapointed looking at the original MN chassis to find no clues to suggest it had been designed to go under a rebuilt MN…indeed it even has an outsized lump of weight filling the unrebuilt body space.

 

But imo only a retool will resell these classes, but at £264 for the old tooling, I think that maybe a hardsell if the new one came out higher… most of the older ones were sub £130.

 

but if someone presented at new one at a <=£190 price point I suspect it would go a long way. Its the kind of class that could attract that level of volume to allow a lower price.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 18, 2022 by adb968008

[adb968008]

18 minutes ago, Clearwater said:

 

 The names of shipping lines are passing from popular memory.  The BoB much less so.

Imagine if there was a class of Merchant Navy today, what would we have…

 

Meditteranean Shipping Company

Cosco

Maersk

Hanjin

 

or perhaps passenger friendly..

Carnival Cruises

Disney Cruises

Royal Caribbean 

or being British..

 

Wightlink 

MerseyFerries

Saga Cruises

 

What class could wear them though, 444 perhaps ?

 

Edited December 18, 2022 by adb968008

[Ravenser]

36 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Imagine if there was a class of Merchant Navy today, what would we have…

 

Meditteranean Shipping Company

Cosco

Maersk

Hanjin

 

or perhaps passenger friendly..

Carnival Cruises

Disney Cruises

Royal Caribbean 

or being British..

 

Wightlink 

MerseyFerries

Saga Cruises

 

What class could wear them though, 444 perhaps ?

 

 

 

There is such a class - Freightliner 66s 

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Noooooo!

 

I'm just doing a Limo Cab for a Fowler 2-6-4T. Sure sign that an RTR will arrive shortly.

I would be in the market for a Stanier 3P though.🙏

 

Well, they could do the ones with the slightly different cab instead then. 😛

 

Wasn't the cab opening smaller on the middle batches to alleviate the draft?

 

 

Forgot to ask Mike Edge if they had any Limo cabs left. Too busy buying tenders and LMS tank engines.

 

 

Jason

[RyanN91]

I'm always amazed each year at the new tooled, locos, rolling stock, etc and reintroduced, relievery locos, rolling stock etc. Whatever they announce I'll be amazed guarantee! 

 

Other than the increase demand why can't  you produce a (????) , whatever they want produced. 

 

I did once imagine a fictious comical sinenaro of just how do Hornby and other manufacturers, choose their future years ranges?

 

Perhaps they have a complete database of everything that's ever existed related to the history of all things British Railways related. They use a giant tombola bingo wheel with thousands of numbered balls inside. The handle is either turned by Simon and Montana or even Michael or anyone else at Hornby. Which ever random ball is picked out of the machine the corresponding number to the listed database is picked then they start to begin to develop and produce that very model. 

[DougN]

I have been reading these lists for years. At this years British railway Modelers of Australia Convention Simon gave a run down as to how the decision making for all models was made. Interesting as their requirements were very logical, though below in no particular order:-

- large number of liveries

- Sizeable class

- Sizeable geographic spread

- shown up in wish lists and also direct correspondance and discussions at exhibitions

- Has it previously been produced by Hornby (historical model range) 

- is one preserved

- how many variations of the item. 

- Longevity of the prototype

- is there a unusual demand eg the W1, rocket etc

 

These all seem to indicate the volume of sales eg if there was 2 of them and they only existed together in 1880 to 1890 in deepest scotland- it would be a probable not!. 

 

I was going to write a email to Simon about the NER timber hoppers but never got around to it after the convention in september... but  good on you accurascale! 

 

It made me think about the D49. and the conditions above. 

- large number of liveries- LNER, green, LNER black, wartime black, BR early and BR late

- Sizeable class- 76

- Sizeable geographic spread- Most of the LNER system  and Scotland- (People say Scotland misses out ) 

- shown up in wish lists and also direct correspondance and discussions at exhibitions- Always polling in the upper ranges of the LNER sections

- Has it previously been produced by Hornby (historical model range) - YES this is one from the O gauge days along with the OO version of the late 70's and 80's - now in the railroad range but hasn't been available for a while.

- is one preserved- Yes - Morayshire in Scotland

- how many variations of the item. - here is the problem you have the 2 types of valve gear.... along with the oddity of the Thompson rebuild- literally any pregrouping tender could end up behind them - group standard flat or flare sided (already in the Hornby system for the B1's and O1's) , NER 4125gal tender(already in the Hornby system for the Q6), GCR tenders 

- Longevity of the prototype-1927 through to 1961

- is there a unusual demand eg the W1, rocket etc- No not really

 

As the 4-4-0 chassis of the 80's allowed the schools (now re done by Hornby), The City and the compound (now done by Bachmann) is it not time for the scondary line passanger locomotive for Hornby be the LNER D49? 

 

I think there is a good arguement - some might say the railroad is good enough.... but a full version with lots of variations of tenders with little in the way of development costs- could this be a good option for Hornby? - Is this design sensible?

 

Well it is one of the locos I would like and I'll buy at least 1.... 

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

Slight correction. Hornby made the GWR County 4-4-0 not City. 

 

Another one needing a new model.

 

 

Jason

[rogerzilla]

9 hours ago, ColinW said:

As they have had the moulds out to do the purple version of a rebuilt West Country, it wouldn't surprise me to see some more of them, especially as the Severn Valley Railway have said that next year Taw Valley will be painted in wartime black, Southern numbering and sunshine lettering.

 

Colin

The problem with a black sunshine rebuilt* WC is that it's fictional and therefore collector-only (unless you are modelling a preserved railway).  I don't think it would have the same collector pull of the purple one.

 

it would look good, though...most things do in black/sunshine.

 

*my favourite surprising railway fact is still that Ron Jarvis led the rebuilding of the spam cans and also worked on the HST 😲

[Dunsignalling]

8 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Hornby have done so many Rebuilt MN, an WC/BB versions I doubt they could successfully flood the market.

Model Rail Database lists:

 

14 Rebuilt MN

47 Unrebuilt BoB/WC

17 Rebuilt BoB/WC

 

I suspect theres a few missing, and some like 35012 / 35028 have been done multiple times.

 

They might do a few new tender tops, and some preserved ones could be greater exploited.

 

I was dissapointed looking at the original MN chassis to find no clues to suggest it had been designed to go under a rebuilt MN…indeed it even has an outsized lump of weight filling the unrebuilt body space.

 

But imo only a retool will resell these classes, but at £264 for the old tooling, I think that maybe a hardsell if the new one came out higher… most of the older ones were sub £130.

 

but if someone presented at new one at a <=£190 price point I suspect it would go a long way. Its the kind of class that could attract that level of volume to allow a lower price.

 

 

 

 

Personally, as a large-scale owner (through renaming) of more BR green Bulleids than Hornby has made, Hornby's range has actually been fairly limited in real variety, and I've got enough of what they have done TBH. 

 

Notable omissions:

1. Rebuilt MN: They have never done any of the first series rebuilds apart from the dodgy blue 35005. There are definite needs for a 5000g tender, the other variant of the 5100g type, and the BR rebodied 5250g version.
2. Rebuilt WC: A number of those also received the 5250g bodies.
3. Air-smoothed WC: As a result of the rebuilding programme, a fair number of the wider, BR built version received narrower 4500g tenders as the large ones were mainly transferred to rebuilts. Most later cut down, but the only 9'cab/8'6" tender model Hornby has only ever done was City of Wells with the full height tender it received in 1958. 
4. Air-smoothed WC: three locos (34011/43/65) received revised ashpans in 1952 of the type that had originated in the final ten new build locos and which were later incorporated in the rebuilt locos. Despite releasing (at least) 34043 and 34107, Hornby hasn't portrayed the variation. 
5. Air-smoothed MN: early days, but there are a lot of gaps here too; notably locos with cut-down tenders as running from the early-mid 1950s up to rebuilding. Notably (but not exclusively) 35001/35011/35021.  

Hornby would be able to flood my personal market with desirably-different Bulleids through a few smart additions achievable without a full retool. 

 

There are some re-combinations that are "do-able" with no requirement for any new tooling, e.g: Air-smoothed 35011/21 with cut-down tenders (5100g, and 6000g respectively) already produced for the rebuilt models. The wide-cab WCs with 4500g tenders (either height).

 

John

Edited December 19, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[adb968008]

6 hours ago, DougN said:

I have been reading these lists for years. At this years British railway Modelers of Australia Convention Simon gave a run down as to how the decision making for all models was made. Interesting as their requirements were very logical, though below in no particular order:-

- large number of liveries

- Sizeable class

- Sizeable geographic spread

- shown up in wish lists and also direct correspondance and discussions at exhibitions

- Has it previously been produced by Hornby (historical model range) 

- is one preserved

- how many variations of the item. 

- Longevity of the prototype

- is there a unusual demand eg the W1, rocket etc

 

Sound logic, but the first question should be,

 

- is steam

 

otherwise Electrostar with 20 liveries, 20 years, half the country and approx 1000 vehicles would have made the cut several years ago.

[BMacdermott]

6 hours ago, DougN said:

It made me think about the D49. and the conditions above. 

- large number of liveries- LNER, green, LNER black, wartime black, BR early and BR late

- Sizeable class- 76

- Sizeable geographic spread- Most of the LNER system  and Scotland- (People say Scotland misses out ) 

- shown up in wish lists and also direct correspondance and discussions at exhibitions- Always polling in the upper ranges of the LNER sections

Hello DougN

 

Agreed!

 

The D49 has been High Polling in the 00 Wishlist Poll since 2014 and missed being in The Top 50 in 2019 by...just one vote!

 

The 00 Wishlist Poll 2022 is running now and until 1800 on Friday 30 December. A direct link is in the banner headline.

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team)

 

 

[rogerzilla]

How well do DMUs and EMUs sell in OO gauge?  Leaving aside whether they're interesting or not, the number of vehicles always makes them frighteningly expensive.  I doubt collectors put them on display either, due to length.

[Les1952]

11 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Noooooo!

 

I'm just doing a Limo Cab for a Fowler 2-6-4T. Sure sign that an RTR will arrive shortly.

I would be in the market for a Stanier 3P though.🙏

 

Any particular reason why the Limo Cab has been left off the 2022 wishlist?

 

Les

 

[BMacdermott]

24 minutes ago, Les1952 said:

Any particular reason why the Limo Cab has been left off the 2022 wishlist?

Les

 

Hello Les

 

As noted in the Q&A of The 00 Wishlist Poll, we deleted many items that had 'languished' in Low Polling. Our listing in point was:

LMS Fowler 4MT 2-6-4T (42300-42394 and Side Window Cab 42395-42424).

 

We referred to the 'limousine cab' in The Guide (which we no longer provide).

 

As the loco had actually made it into Middle Polling one year, I will put it on the 2024 Agenda for consideration for re-listing.

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team)

['CHARD]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

otherwise Electrostar with 20 liveries, 20 years, half the country and approx 1000 vehicles would have made the cut several years ago.

 

1 hour ago, BMacdermott said:

The D49 has been High Polling in the 00 Wishlist Poll since 2014 and missed being in The Top 50 in 2019 by...just one vote!

 

1 hour ago, rogerzilla said:

How well do DMUs and EMUs sell in OO gauge?  Leaving aside whether they're interesting or not, the number of vehicles always makes them frighteningly expensive.  I doubt collectors put them on display either, due to length.

 

Two well-trodden paths here, unsurprisingly, but possibly linked by Hornby's new model criteria/ philosophy and business case.  Dealing with the D49 first - it's something of a Cinderella type, secondary in profile and significance, and even in a Scottish context shaded by other pre-grouping classes.  Yes it's been in the Hornby range, but akin to the Class 29 rather than Flying Scotsman. High priority for reworking? - somehow I doubt it. 

 

Electrostars - the sheer diversity poses the question 'where would you start,' and would it be pitched at Design Clever levels of fidelity and detail, risking the usual catcalls, just to keep it affordable?  Hornby has chosen the Azuma and Flirt to take this category forward, so I wonder if the hunger for the previous generation Electrostar fits their criteria.

[adb968008]

34 minutes ago, 'CHARD said:

Electrostars - the sheer diversity poses the question 'where would you start,' and would it be pitched at Design Clever levels of fidelity and detail, risking the usual catcalls, just to keep it affordable?  Hornby has chosen the Azuma and Flirt to take this category forward, so I wonder if the hunger for the previous generation Electrostar fits their criteria.

Units is one area Hornby has done well in the past.

 

Theyve done 101,110,142, 153,156, 156 and all were done when they were contemporary.

There model has been 2 car, or 3 car, even selling the extra cars separately making them affordable.

 

The new mode where lighting is an “add on” further reduces the upfront cost… the new Vep, which can be had at £330 is £80 per carriage.

However a clever railroad Electrostar would be a good idea in my opinion, if those “upgrade” extras were designed in to be sold separately.

it might mean a full bells and whistles DCC sound one costs slightly more, and requires the modeller to do something, but a lower entry price point makes it more affordable for all. An Electrostar starts at 3 carriages after all.

 

if the extra bits were available shrink wrapped, (sound, lighting, enhanced pickups / couplings (which is where the cost is )) the modeller can upgrade to a level of their choosing at a timing/affordability of their choosing, and most bits would be portable to any Electrostar across the years.

 

Assmbley of the Electrostar too may be easier to do it as separate bodysides / ends rather than a single tooling with slides to make a one piece body, a bit like how mark1’s used to be so it gives options across the variants.

 

I cant help but think as a starting point in modern image the 755 was the wrong choice, its geographically limited, too new and in an area which isnt on every modellers lips… even a 180 or 185 might have been better.

 

Units dont have to be expensive, at the end of the day its just a loco with some coaches.

 

Edited December 19, 2022 by adb968008