EFE Rail Class 143/144 Pacer

[89A]

2 hours ago, The Black Hat said:

What I'm wondering is have changes been made to the model or are they coming DCC fitted. For those wanting to fit sound,  the original ones were VERY tricky to fit once you start lifting the body off... so I was wondering if they were the same but expect them to be so. 

I've edited your post as I found them one of THE trickiest units to fit a decoder on.

Never could get them to run as well after having had to remove the wheels and springs to fit the decoder.

Hope they are not the same and the next 18 interface may offer hope of an easier fit.

[meld]

3 hours ago, WILLIAM said:

Anyone know why these units were renumbered from the 143 0XX series to 143 6XX in the early 1990s?

Gearbox changed and modifications to improve reliability.

 

Meld.

[jonnyuk]

slightly confused now, have realtrack not given efe permission to produce the product, maybe realtrack don't own the tooling, the factory does and they have struck a deal with efe. Maybe its not the same tooling, if  this is case where has it come from?

 

I can't see efe producing something they don't have permission for so i think your money is safe, if it all fell through then retailer would have to refund you.

[spamcan61]

7 minutes ago, jonnyuk said:

slightly confused now, have realtrack not given efe permission to produce the product, maybe realtrack don't own the tooling, the factory does and they have struck a deal with efe. Maybe its not the same tooling, if  this is case where has it come from?

 

Realtrack (Arran) has stated specifically in this, or one of the other threads this is being discussed on, that they have not licensed the tooling to EFE. That's the only established fact here, we don't know what's going on here and probably never will.

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/177172-efe-rail-class-143144-pacer/?do=findComment&comment=5074542

Edited February 1, 2023 by spamcan61

[arran]

5 minutes ago, jonnyuk said:

slightly confused now, have realtrack not given efe permission to produce the product, maybe realtrack don't own the tooling, the factory does and they have struck a deal with efe. Maybe its not the same tooling, if  this is case where has it come from?

 

I can't see efe producing something they don't have permission for so i think your money is safe, if it all fell through then retailer would have to refund you.

Realtrack own the tooling for the 144 143 that we produced . 
 

regards Charlie and Arran 

[adb968008]

And heres me thinking the 37 thread was getting interesting.

 

These units havent appeared from nowhere, those liveries took time and research, before the dirt was squirted on them.

 

Hattons seems to think these are off the realtrack tooling, and indeed to my eye they look like it.

 

Read “other versions of this tooling”.

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/directory/versiondetails/2261/realtrack_oo_class_143_pacer

[surfsup]

4 hours ago, dj_crisp said:

An interesting announcement that I didn't expect!

 

I like the clean ones alot and if they're ex realtrack then they'll be good.

 

Have to say the weathering is horrific. The clean shadow behind the front lamp irons just shows how poorly its been applied. Quite a few are modern liveried units and while I remember them steaming up inside I don't remember them being that dirty..

 Especially the GWR ones.  I'd rather they didn't bother 

 

They do seem to be suffering from some of Bachmann's surprisingly mix bag of weathering - the second Ltd Ed Southern 171 released a few years ago also suffered from a dose of the brown weathering spray, despite Southern keeping their fleet pretty consistently clean. Bachmann can produce some excellent examples, but do also seem to have a some what annoying tendency to unnecessarily weather things - though Hornby is a worse contender for this (I'll never forget their brown CDAs). 

[frobisher]

11 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

And heres me thinking the 37 thread was getting interesting.

 

These units havent appeared from nowhere, those liveries took time and research, before the dirt was squirted on them.

 

Hattons seems to think these are off the realtrack tooling, and indeed to my eye they look like it.

 

Read “other versions of this tooling”.

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/directory/versiondetails/2261/realtrack_oo_class_143_pacer

 

I think too many of us may be looking for a controversy where there probably isn't one.

 

Arran of Realtrack has stated that there is no licensing agreement in place between EFE/Bachmann and Railtrack (who own the tooliing that was used for their models - And I don't blame Arran for making the clarifying statements, because the silly ideas will otherwise take root as "fact" given time.

 

There are a range of solutions to that puzzle that do not require anything nefarious going on but outside of those actually in the know, these are purely speculative.

 

 

[1andrew1]

22 minutes ago, frobisher said:

 

I think too many of us may be looking for a controversy where there probably isn't one.

 

Arran of Realtrack has stated that there is no licensing agreement in place between EFE/Bachmann and Railtrack (who own the tooliing that was used for their models - And I don't blame Arran for making the clarifying statements, because the silly ideas will otherwise take root as "fact" given time.

 

There are a range of solutions to that puzzle that do not require anything nefarious going on but outside of those actually in the know, these are purely speculative.

 

 

I think two key questions before some part with their cash are: are these made from the Realtrack moulds and if so, are there any differences in motors etc from the Realtrack original run?

[E100]

I will again highlight that these have a next 18 interface rather than 8 pin and therefore something has changed on the board at least (unless there’s a Realtrack one with a next 18 I don’t know about).

 

Either way it’s certainly interesting to see these come from EFE Rail as it certainly suggests a new partner manufacturer outside of the existing ones we’ve seen before be that be that Realtrack’s or otherwise.

[richierich]

I’d note, the 144 Regional Railways and 143 T&W PTA both don’t seem to have seating. 
 

For the time period they represent, they would have both had the original 3 + 2 bus seating. 

Edited February 1, 2023 by richierich

[TomScrut]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

before the dirt was squirted on them.

 

Before it ruined them you mean?

[TomScrut]

1 hour ago, frobisher said:

I think too many of us may be looking for a controversy where there probably isn't one.

 

Did Bachmann/EFE forget to brandish their announcement with this?

 

 

If it is new tooling, they normally like to make it known from what I have seen. (Edit, although they might not use this particular logo on EFE stuff they do normally make a point of saying stuff is new tooling)

 

I don't think there is anything wrong with questioning this, so long as it is clear that we are not stating facts as we don't know them.

Edited February 1, 2023 by TomScrut

[MRDBLUE17]

4 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Interesting to see a 143/144.
pity they are weathered.

As to price, they are cheaper than the Realtrack 142.

 

Should i be concerned at pre-paying for the 142 though, given the comments about permission above ?

 

Hi adb968008,

 

The 142 is an entirely separate project coming from Realtrack so need to be concerned in any way about pre-orders. They were regular fixtures on the Furness line (I remember being quite annoyed at the age of 7 or 8 that a proper 31 and coaches had been replaced by the equivalent of our corporation buses) so I will be having 2 or 3 to recreate the local services. The 142 is a brand new model completely - Cad shots have been shared by Realtrack on the 142 topic and you can see it’s shaping up to be a very nice unit. 
 

Hope that helps

 

Cheers

Mark
 

 

[The Fatadder]

42 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

Did Bachmann/EFE forget to brandish their announcement with this?

 

 

If it is new tooling, they normally like to make it known from what I have seen. (Edit, although they might not use this particular logo on EFE stuff they do normally make a point of saying stuff is new tooling)

 

I don't think there is anything wrong with questioning this, so long as it is clear that we are not stating facts as we don't know them.

i am pretty certain they used that logo to signify the new tooling on the mess that is the new sea urchin

[cs233]

If it is an all new tooling why would the awful tension lock couplings be used?! The functional BSI addition would be an obvious addition. Based on the images seen it looks to be the Realtrack tooling with some small updates since the last release. Perhaps an NDA has been signed which would explain the current communication stance from the tooling owners.

[Duncan 1992]

I was interested to see these, then saw the price. I mean come on Bachmann, there isn't even a 5 pole motor for heaven sakes. No model these days should have a three pole motor. Also for that kind of money, I'd be expecting it to be at least DCC Fitted, and both carriages powered. 

[Roy Langridge]

3 hours ago, cs233 said:

If it is an all new tooling why would the awful tension lock couplings be used?! The functional BSI addition would be an obvious addition. Based on the images seen it looks to be the Realtrack tooling with some small updates since the last release. Perhaps an NDA has been signed which would explain the current communication stance from the tooling owners.

See Charlie’s response to one of my posts here: 

 

 

Roy

[jjb1970]

I honestly have no idea about who owns what or the arrangements EFE use to access tooling.

 

However, my impression of Bachmann has always been that they play with a pretty straight bat and are a good outfit. So I am pretty confident based on past behaviours that whatever is going on that it's above board. Unless proven otherwise I am going to assume Bachmann/EFE are doing nothing wrong here. And look forward to the T&W release.

[amwells]

4 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

my impression of Bachmann has always been that they play with a pretty straight bat and are a good outfit. So I am pretty confident based on past behaviours that whatever is going on that it's above board.

I would agree with that view. But it does seem odd. And while I don’t defend (or criticise) here any of the behaviours of any party - things like Terriergate, Titfieldgate and Shedgate shone a poor light on Hornby for doing their own tooling (or using existing old tooling) to aggressively compete with others (namely Rails, Rapido and Hattons respectively). If (big IF) this is duplication of IP, and of a smaller organisation, that’s another level!

 

From the EFE releases to date, they all seem to have been either modified existing EFE models (tube stock), ex-Kernow or Kernow acquired ex-DJM. Then there’s the Hymek which I assume was made with Heljan’s involvement. 
 

And also without wanting to drag up unfortunate events of the past, maybe this is also the type of thing that DJM was on about when he appeared at his most paranoid, towards the end of that venture?  Of course there may be nothing like that at all!

Edited February 2, 2023 by amwells
Incomplete post

[Bob83a]

You would have to assume that Bachmann/EFE have done due diligence on these models with respect to intellectual property rights or there could be the possibility of the models being stopped at Customs.

 

As Charlie of Realtrack has said they do appear to have some of the deliberate “mistakes” which are part of the Realtrack models, but until Realtrack see one of the models then who knows.

[ruggedpeak]

I think we hold off on speculation until the models arrive and we can all compare and contrast. Then we can go to town!!!!😆

 

I note Hattons still think these are Realtrack models however, everyone else seems to have them listed as EFE. Irrespective, lose the weathering 🤢

 

[Neil]

I would have thought that someone from Bachmann will be aware of this thread and therefore the controversy over the origin of the model. I would expect that if all is above board some comment would be made.

[Nile]

15 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

I note Hattons still think these are Realtrack models however, everyone else seems to have them listed as EFE.

 

What you've found there is the original listing for this model under the Realtrack name:

https://www.hattons.co.uk/directory/versiondetails/5812/realtrack_oo_class_143_pacer

 

If you scroll down to the "Products from this Tooling" section you will see the EFE Rail models listed, such as this:

https://www.hattons.co.uk/1148296/efe_rail_e83024_class_143_pacer_2_car_dmu_143608_in_arriva_trains_wales_revised_teal_weathered/stockdetail

 

This is all in the Hatton's directory, you wont find any in the actual shop as they don't stock new EFE Rail products.

[rembrow]

I think there is a misunderstanding about the role EFE/Bachmann have in new models sold under the EFE brand. My understanding from the original launch information, is that it is a vehicle to allow other tooling owners products to be made available to a wider retail network, by making them available to the Bachmann retailer network. I never understood that Bachmann/EFE commission runs of models, except for their own tooling. I have purchased several EFE branded models, all from Kernow owned tooling. The boxing clearly states that the model is 'Distributed on behalf of Kernow Model Rail Centre'. So my understanding is that EFE acts as a wholesaler, and does not commission the production. Obviously there will be negotiations and contracts in.place before the tooling owner presses the button. EFE acts as a hybrid wholesaler by distributing the models under a brand name that it owns. Recently Kernow went straight to EFE with new products, not previously released. The LSWR cross country coach set and the Sea Urchin wagon. Neither had previously been sold under their own brand. Heljan also used EFE for several versions of their Class 58 diesel. I believe this was due to them previously supplying Class 58 models to Olivias Trains under an exclusive agreement, which are still available at that outlet.

Edited February 2, 2023 by rembrow