The next Accurascale steam loco in OO ???

[jamieb]

Can you all stop with the petty bickering please,it seems to be an ever growing phenomenon here.I come on this site for entertainment, not to endure grumpy middle aged men arguing over toy trains! 

[cctransuk]

1 minute ago, jamieb said:

Can you all stop with the petty bickering please,it seems to be an ever growing phenomenon here.I come on this site for entertainment, not to endure grumpy middle aged men arguing over toy trains! 

 

Middle-aged - I wish !!

 

Perhaps the grumpy middle-aged (and elderly) men (and women?) get their entertainment from arguing - each to their own! 😉

 

CJI.

[No Decorum]

8 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Do these flickering, chuffing, tootling wonders shuffle up and down a programming track, rather than pulling realistic trains?

 

CJI.

My flickering, chuffing, tootling wonders (and my headlit, growling, honking wonders) do gallop around hauling trains matched to them as best I can. Each to his own and I know that plenty like to control models by twisting a knob but I find the best sound projects are very involving to drive and add enormously to the pleasure of operating trains.

[cctransuk]

8 hours ago, Captain Kernow said:

Even I will draw the line at any version of the Fell appearing on the Somerset & Dorset or an impecunious light railway somewhere in Wales...

 

 

You, Sir, lack imagination!

 

My RTR Fell went back, but the Judith Edge etched kit for it sits awaiting its naisance, and its appearance on my little bit of the S&DJR here in Cornwall!

 

CJI.

[Black 5 Bear]

18 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

I hear the calls for a retooled 8F - apparently simply for the sake of having something on which to spend idle money.

 

What I don't hear - despite the asking - is an analysis of what improvements are required.

 

I am therefore drawn to the conclusion that these must be yet more electronic gadgetry - at the expensive of essential adhesive weight.

 

Do these flickering, chuffing, tootling wonders shuffle up and down a programming track, rather than pulling realistic trains?

 

CJI.

Again, you've actually justified the main reasoning behind a newly tooled version, that being poor haulage capacity on the current Hornby offering.

You've actually admitted to making quite substantial upgrades to enhance the running of the model in question.

Additionally, the price point of somewhere in the region of £225 for an old model, is to my mind  somewhat excessive.

I'm sure Accurascale or some other manufacturer could offer a new model to today's standards at around the same price point?

As for "Idle Money" surely that is up to the individual whether he/she chooses to buy or otherwise?

As for the gimmick factor of S+S, which admittedly really isn't my thing, I can fully understand why people would buy such a model.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Black 5 Bear

[cctransuk]

9 minutes ago, Black 5 Bear said:

Again, you've actually justified the main reasoning behind a newly tooled version, that being poor haulage capacity on the current Hornby offering.

You've actually admitted to making quite substantial upgrades to enhance the running of the model in question.

Additionally, the price point of somewhere in the region of £225 for an old model, is to my mind  somewhat excessive.

I'm sure Accurascale or some other new manufacturer could offer a new model to today's standards at around the same price point?

As for "Idle Money" surely that is up to the individual whether he/she chooses to buy or otherwise?

As for the gimmick factor of S+S, which really isn't my thing, I can fully understand why people would buy such a model.

 

It would appear that you are too young to appreciate the significance of the specification of my 8F model.

 

I referred to an (original) 1960s Hornby Dublo 8F, bought at a discount when HD were taken over by Tri-ang. The replacement Pittman, conventional motor was for the then-innovative Ring Field motor, which filled and protruded from the cab, and which was too cutting-edge to function satisfactorily.

 

The Airfix tender replacement was because the original cast one had too prominent rivets.

 

So, innovation is not always beneficial or desirable - before demanding change, be sure of what you wish for!

 

CJI.

[Mallard60022]

1 hour ago, jamieb said:

Can you all stop with the petty bickering please,it seems to be an ever growing phenomenon here.I come on this site for entertainment, not to endure grumpy middle aged men arguing over toy trains! 

Usual suspects sadly.

P

[cctransuk]

1 minute ago, Mallard60022 said:

Usual suspects sadly.

P

 

Lighten-up - a bit of vigorous debate on a wet Sunday evening is good for the soul! 😀

 

CJI.

[RichardT]

2 hours ago, Black 5 Bear said:

Just because you personally wouldn't buy a newly  tooled version, doesn't mean it will won't be a popular model with others!

FTFY

[Standards_in_OO]

As there were new versions of the existing 8F in the Hornby range this year, it would seem unlikely that they were doing another one just yet. I can imagine this isn’t always the case when they release a new loco, but have noticed that with the black 5. I’d still rather see something else than another release of an existing model 

[Islesy]

17 minutes ago, Standards_in_OO said:

I’d still rather see something else than another release of an existing model 

Personally, I’d agree with you - there are so many projects that are, as yet, unrealised and many are commercially viable (and on the list to be done).
That being said, there are valid business reasons for the ‘duplication’ of pre-existing models; some models can be considered essential in any manufacturer’s range, especially if they are synonymous with pre-existing items in that manufacturer’s range.

[adb968008]

15 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

I hear the calls for a retooled 8F - apparently simply for the sake of having something on which to spend idle money.

 

What I don't hear - despite the asking - is an analysis of what improvements are required.

 

I am therefore drawn to the conclusion that these must be yet more electronic gadgetry - at the expense of essential adhesive weight.

 

Do these flickering, chuffing, tootling wonders shuffle up and down a programming track, rather than pulling realistic trains?

 

CJI.

The only retooled 8f i’d be interested in would be a full metal bodied replacement.

I love my Dublo 8f.. it goes right back to my childhood, runs like a dream and had a bit of a metallic clank about it.

 

The more recent Hornby 8f wasnt that much above its 1980’s Hornby 8f the biggest area of let down being the unrealistic looking wheels / plastic centres which more recently has been addressed in the newer toolings of GWR models for instance.

 

A plastic retool of the 2000’s era 8f wont be moving me, neither is the Black5 for that matter.. you can replace the wheels easy enough, it needs to offer more for the price Hornby is asking for it.

 

This is imo the problem with retooling something made in the last 20 years, it has to be convincing…. Its taken me a lot to be convinced on the manor, I agree its good, but in my head its competed against not being my core interest, not being my preferred numbers and having some older ones that are, and have emotional memories which are less easy to replace. The 37 was much more compelling.. accurate DRS 37’s just havent been done before, and research into individual 37’s are much deeper than more generic 37’s weve accepted in the past, plus its core interest.

 

However all barriers get removed when its something not previously modelled…  case in point being nearly a dozen Accurascale 37’s now around me vs only 3 Bachmann ones (+IS versions of 37260/2 to come)…

 

what 8f versions could we have not previously done ?.. the webbed wheeled one ?

 

interestingly though I think I am in minority when it comes to duplication, a few weeks ago I did this poll thread..

 

The results so far suggest Quality, Accuracy and Value are far more important than duplicating an older tooling, and competitors going head to head directly on a tooling.

Standing back looking at the popularity of the recent 55 and 37… I would say thats supporting the voting too.

 

Edited August 14, 2023 by adb968008

[Covkid]

9 hours ago, Standards_in_OO said:

 I’d still rather see something else than another release of an existing model 

 

8 hours ago, Islesy said:

Personally, I’d agree with you - there are so many projects that are, as yet, unrealised and many are commercially viable (and on the list to be done).
That being said, there are valid business reasons for the ‘duplication’ of pre-existing models; some models can be considered essential in any manufacturer’s range, especially if they are synonymous with pre-existing items in that manufacturer’s range.

 

Some interesting comments in this thread as well as these two above. 

 

I think it needs to be said that most model products tend to be set in aspic after they are tooled and released.  So for example manufacturer A releases a class X to the market.

 

After a number of years manufacturer A might decide the class X needs DCC sound and lights or simply an upgraded chassis.  The chances are that the existing body moulding gets a retooled chassis with the extra electronic gubbins. But does the original body meet expectations ? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. We know that Hornby have done this with the ex Lima class 31 body as well as their own indigenous shell, but as we advance further into the 21st century the competition becomes more authentic. A number of years ago Bachmann realised their class 40 needed a serious revamp and renewed the offering, and recently have fitted it with lighting. But having seen what has happened with the "smaller brother" class 37 from both Bachmann and Accurascale, it would be fair to say the current class 40 would be benefit from the kind of finesse the class 37s have had. So yes, renewed existing models is justified where it is warranted, but "virgin" RTR projects are equally required. 

 

Would I buy a new manufacturer 16T mineral wagon ? no.

Did I buy a new Heljan "peak ? no.

Did I buy a new Bachmann 47 ? no

Did I buy a new Bachmann class 24 ? yes - several. 

Did I buy a new class 25 to replace my existing Bachmann oughties ones ? Due to my impatience and at a good price yes, I have two Heljans and will buy the Bachmann ones. 

 

And then we come to the more tricky questions

 

Would I buy a new Hornby black five ? probably no given the work I have done on my existing one.

Would I buy a new 8F ?  If it were Accurascale - yes.

Would I buy new corridor Mk1s  No

Would I buy new non corridor Mk1s from Accurascale ?  Yes, two to replace the existing ones duew to much improved glazing.

 

Then the easier questions

 

Would I prefer a new Bulleid pacific or a new previously non RTR 0-6-0 goods engine ?   Yes

Would I prefer a new Patriot or Royal Scot or a previously non RTR Stanier or Fowler 2-6-2 ?  Hell yes.  

[50025]

I would love one of these beauties. LNWR Claughton
 

 

Edited August 14, 2023 by 50025
Typo

[HExpressD]

At risk of reviving the little toe-to-toe that's been had above, I am led to understand that the reason that the Hornby 8F models isn't seen more frequently given the amount of class members and reach etc is that it has always sold rather poorly. Maybe a more detailed one would sell better, maybe, but I wouldn't want to spend the tooling cost to find out that was wrong!

[adb968008]

14 minutes ago, HExpressD said:

At risk of reviving the little toe-to-toe that's been had above, I am led to understand that the reason that the Hornby 8F models isn't seen more frequently given the amount of class members and reach etc is that it has always sold rather poorly. Maybe a more detailed one would sell better, maybe, but I wouldn't want to spend the tooling cost to find out that was wrong!

Qed…

 

they are all nearly the same.. its a wartime mass production model. Once you have enough, youve got enough.

The Black5 differs due to all the variations, the 1968 effect and preservation.

But both fail on liveries.. Black is black, though 48624 in BR maroon looked really good.

 

A County &  Saint are bigger gaps (and i’m not wholly a GwR man).

A Bulleid seems low hanging fruit.

LNER seems over done to me, though i’m surprised a k4 has never been released, 61994 has been very prolific.

For LMS to me its about the pre 1923 golden age… I have a lovely model of a North Staffs railway 4-4-0 express loco.. i’m safe no one will ever make that rtr.

 

[Covkid]

16 minutes ago, HExpressD said:

At risk of reviving the little toe-to-toe that's been had above, I am led to understand that the reason that the Hornby 8F models isn't seen more frequently given the amount of class members and reach etc is that it has always sold rather poorly. Maybe a more detailed one would sell better, maybe, but I wouldn't want to spend the tooling cost to find out that was wrong!

 

Could well be true. The point about price is quite relevant in my view and I feel the Accurascale pricing strategy is very relevant here.  I realise I am generalising but many of the Accuracale announces and releases tended to be £169.999 DCC ready and £254.00 DCC sound fitted. I ordered a Manor, a 31 and three 37s at what I believe to be a very good price. The class 31 in particular can be regarded as a "cutting edge" model, competing very very strongly against the red box version particularly considering the reticence some folk must feel over the the mazak rot legacy. I have to be honest and say  haven't dare open the box of my "skinhead" 31111 for at least five years, after seeing four of my Klein Modelbahn Austrian class 2143 diesels destroyed by the same disease.  To me Hornby will suffer this legacy for years to come.      

 

[Covkid]

24 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

They are all nearly the same.. its a wartime mass production model. Once you have enough, youve got enough.

The Black5 differs due to all the variations, the 1968 effect and preservation.

But both fail on liveries.. Black is black, though 48624 in BR maroon looked really good.

Agree black is black but some had Fowler tenders and didn't some have embellished smokebox number plates right at the end, as well as the "Master Neverers"  cleaning of some. There were also a batch of 8Fs which were transferred to the ex WR sheds towards the end of steam which had WR lamp brackets and which worked in typically WR environments.  I am thinking of Stourbridge and Kidderminster etc. 

 

I would certainly have a couple of new 8Fs and IIRC 48725 was a Fowler tendered one - BR records show it as built at Brighton in 1944 after the war allocated to Wakefield loco before migrating over the Pennines to the Manchester area, then to the West Midlands, before ending service at Crewe in 1967.  Not especial except it had a Fowler tender, but very modellable.   

 

flickr.com/photos/geoffsimages/15924253882

48725 doing what they were built for at Hednesford - hauling coal wagons around !!

 

24 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

 

 

Edited August 14, 2023 by Covkid

[MikeParkin65]

27 minutes ago, Covkid said:

 

 

 

And then we come to the more tricky questions

 

Would I buy a new Hornby black five ? probably no given the work I have done on my existing one.

Would I buy a new 8F ?  If it were Accurascale - yes.

Would I buy new corridor Mk1s  No

Would I buy new non corridor Mk1s from Accurascale ?  Yes, two to replace the existing ones duew to much improved glazing.

 

Then the easier questions

 

Would I prefer a new Bulleid pacific or a new previously non RTR 0-6-0 goods engine ?   Yes

Would I prefer a new Patriot or Royal Scot or a previously non RTR Stanier or Fowler 2-6-2 ?  Hell yes.  

Agree with most but not all of your points in this well considered response (partly because I am trying to justify the second Heljan Peak and get over the fact the the nameplate is over size and in the wrong position and Rails and Heljan between them have both managed to sign off production of a model that lacks the basics of a BR totem - check out D65!). 

 

Anyway, with my Manor sweetly running in on the rolling road I am struck by the fact that my interest and enjoyment of the hobby is at least in part fired by the enthusiasm and skills of the manufacturer in raising standards and the consequent added value in their product. The Manor wasn't a must have for the theme of the layout ('Northern England, 1960-1965 ish') but from first announcement of the Manor and the stated intention to meet and exceed what was then state of the art  I was hooked and I see my pre order was made in December 21. 

 

I haven't preordered Hornby's much more suitable Black 5 - why? Because I dont buy into Hornby's ethos - I don't feel their enthusiasm. But if Accurascale announced anything on your list above, including the Black 5 and Bulleid I'd definitely pre order for 2 reasons. Firstly that genuine enthusiasm for the hobby and the prototype and secondly the fact that I know it will be made to standards hitherto unseen in the hobby. That even applies to Mk1 corridor stock, got examples coming out of my ears but would still spend on multiple AS versions.

 

So I think AS should consider popular prototypes even if there is a current competitor in the market where they know they can significantly improve upon on it. This definitely applies to the 8F, 3 cylinder LMS 460's, SR Light Pacifics, the BR Standard 5 and GWR County - all of which I would buy examples of from AS. 

[MikeParkin65]

2 minutes ago, Covkid said:

Agree black is black but some had Fowler tenders and didn't some have embellished smokebox number plates right at the end, as well as the "Master Neverers"  cleaning of some. There were also a batch of 8Fs which were transferred to the ex WR sheds towards the end of steam which had WR lamp brackets and which worked in typically WR environments.  I am thinking of Stourbridge and Kidderminster etc. 

 

I would certainly have a couple of new 8Fs and IIRC 48725 was a Fowler tendered one - BR records show it as built at Brighton in 1944 after the war allocated to Wakefield loco before migrating over the Pennines to the Manchester area, then to the West Midlands, before ending service at Crewe in 1967.  Not especial except it had a Fowler tender, but very modellable.   

 

Not to mention Longmoor blue versions, WD Grey and the various overseas mods (incl the one found in Iraq post Gulf War in bright green lined in red. And those that think all 8f's look the same need to have a look at the Irwell 'Book of' on the class :)

[Covkid]

1 minute ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Not to mention Longmoor blue versions, WD Grey and the various overseas mods (incl the one found in Iraq post Gulf War in bright green lined in red. And those that think all 8f's look the same need to have a look at the Irwell 'Book of' on the class :)

You are reminding of those blokes who repatriated a couple of 8Fs from Turkey, only for one of the pair to move back east to (I think) Israel.  I watched the videos and stories of their move behind diesels to the Turkish port to be shipped to the UK.  IIRC the other one ofthe pair is at Bo'ness while they reaise funds to restore it. 

[adb968008]

3 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Not to mention Longmoor blue versions, WD Grey and the various overseas mods (incl the one found in Iraq post Gulf War in bright green lined in red. And those that think all 8f's look the same need to have a look at the Irwell 'Book of' on the class :)

Overseas models of UK prototypes seem to sell very badly.

i’m not sure how many modellers would really want a Palestine, Egyptian, Iraqi, Syrian or Iranian version, though the TCDD version, and as withdrawn version may peak limited interest.

They are quite niche, largely unmodelled regions and their appeal to army vets etc very limited in scope in 2023…the Iraq one had been dumped for decades and that was back when the gulf war started 30 years ago !
 

I have the Hornby TCDD model of the 8f, it has several errors but its quite nice, but recall at the time it took a while to sell out, despite some stock (HO) being available to run it with.

 

I also have two WD versions, with armour plated footplates and oil tenders, quite niche but thats me.

 

but lets face it.. its an LMS or a BR black 8f that most would want, and not many will want a shedful… a 37 it is not.

Edited August 14, 2023 by adb968008

[Tim Dubya]

Just so we're clear, I don't want an 8F, retooled or otherwise, so you can all relax 😉

 

 

PS: not even a green one...

 

Edited August 15, 2023 by Tim Dubya
Haloperidol

[atom3624]

How about DoG?

71k in detail would be a fantastic addition for the serious modeller.

Al.

[adb968008]

45 minutes ago, atom3624 said:

How about DoG?

71k in detail would be a fantastic addition for the serious modeller.

Al.

With working Caprotti ?

 

Realistic smoke recreating the buffer that forms infront of the chimney may be hard though.