Peterborough North

[great northern]

Lots of parcels traffic by this time of evening, the next being a KX-Leeds Class C, which had a reputation for a time in the 50s for ending up in the sand drag at Arlesey. Not today though, as it swings under the bridge behind one of our own V2s.

The light was strange when I took these, and the next one looked peculiar in colour despite all my efforts, so we get some moody black and white.

[great northern]

I have encountered an interesting conundrum, and wonder if anyone can help with answers, or can point me in the direction of someone who could.

 

I shall soon be receiving a Gresley locker composite to Dia 8, which Steve @31A has built for me as a conversion from a Hornby donor. When built, these carriages had two first class compartments seating six passengers in each, plus a "coupe" compartment seating a further three first class. There were also four third class compartments, each seating eight, so in all Harris shows the seating as 15/32. There is then a little asterix, which until now I had missed which shows below the following:- "some later with intermediate armrests and seating reduced by eight". That would at first sight mean 15/24.

 

However, when I consult the 1958 CWN I find a CK 2-four and a half, seating 12 first and 36 second class passengers. The only way that can be explained, as I see it, is that the first class coupe has been changed to second class, seating four passengers. That would indeed make 12/36. I have also found entries for CK two/four and a half with an annotation stating "First class compartment to be labelled for use of second class passengers." The total seating is then given as 39 second class. That must mean surely 2 compartments seating 12, and four and a half seating 6 in the four second class compartments, and three in the former first coupe. That would be consistent with the annotation in Harris.

 

Then I turned to the Express Publications M&GN passenger services 1954, which has long puzzled me, as it shows a large number of trains with Composite corridor (2-4), and a few with Composite corridor (2-5). As built, relying on Harris, there were none of either of these. I'm afraid I assumed Express had got it wrong. But, based on my earlier calculations , it would appear that the first coupe was in some cases altered to second class. In that case 2-5 becomes more understandable, if the coupe is counted as one compartment. 2-4 though is, to me, more of a problem, unless the coupe was no longer in use.

 

The sticking point is that Harris says nothing about later conversion of the coupe to second class, or indeed put out of use. I've searched the internet, but can find nothing at all to support that. I just can't see what else can be reconciled with the entries in the CWN and Express though.

 

Any comments, suggestions, explaining how I've got the whole thing round my neck, or giving me the identity of a man or woman who can throw light on this would be gratefully received.

[great northern]

We contunue to follow the progress of 60924.

 

 

I now have a new screen, but it doesn't seem to be removing the problems which have beset my photography for some time. I now suspect that the overhead lighting is to blame. The alternative is that the culprit is the camera, but I don't even want to think about that until all alternatives have been exhausted.

[31A]

4 hours ago, great northern said:

I have encountered an interesting conundrum, and wonder if anyone can help with answers, or can point me in the direction of someone who could.

 

I shall soon be receiving a Gresley locker composite to Dia 8, which Steve @31A has built for me as a conversion from a Hornby donor. When built, these carriages had two first class compartments seating six passengers in each, plus a "coupe" compartment seating a further three first class. There were also four third class compartments, each seating eight, so in all Harris shows the seating as 15/32. There is then a little asterix, which until now I had missed which shows below the following:- "some later with intermediate armrests and seating reduced by eight". That would at first sight mean 15/24.

 

However, when I consult the 1958 CWN I find a CK 2-four and a half, seating 12 first and 36 second class passengers. The only way that can be explained, as I see it, is that the first class coupe has been changed to second class, seating four passengers. That would indeed make 12/36. I have also found entries for CK two/four and a half with an annotation stating "First class compartment to be labelled for use of second class passengers." The total seating is then given as 39 second class. That must mean surely 2 compartments seating 12, and four and a half seating 6 in the four second class compartments, and three in the former first coupe. That would be consistent with the annotation in Harris.

 

Then I turned to the Express Publications M&GN passenger services 1954, which has long puzzled me, as it shows a large number of trains with Composite corridor (2-4), and a few with Composite corridor (2-5). As built, relying on Harris, there were none of either of these. I'm afraid I assumed Express had got it wrong. But, based on my earlier calculations , it would appear that the first coupe was in some cases altered to second class. In that case 2-5 becomes more understandable, if the coupe is counted as one compartment. 2-4 though is, to me, more of a problem, unless the coupe was no longer in use.

 

The sticking point is that Harris says nothing about later conversion of the coupe to second class, or indeed put out of use. I've searched the internet, but can find nothing at all to support that. I just can't see what else can be reconciled with the entries in the CWN and Express though.

 

Any comments, suggestions, explaining how I've got the whole thing round my neck, or giving me the identity of a man or woman who can throw light on this would be gratefully received.

Very interesting; I wish I’d known this a couple of days ago before I put the First Class label on the window of the coupe compartment!  Seriously, the picture of one of these in BR livery that was in the LNER Society Journal a while back appears not to show a First Class label on that window, but I put one on the model in the assumption that it should have been there but wasn’t visible in the photo because of the way the light fell on it, or it had “dropped off”, but perhaps it really wasn’t supposed to be there at all!  If necessary I can always scrape it off again!

[jwealleans]

13 hours ago, great northern said:

Then I turned to the Express Publications M&GN passenger services 1954, which has long puzzled me, as it shows a large number of trains with Composite corridor (2-4), and a few with Composite corridor (2-5). As built, relying on Harris, there were none of either of these.

 

If this is the M&GN, are these possibly ex-LMS vehicles?

[great northern]

Last look at 60924.

But those who are partial to a V2 need not be sad, as there is another one coming into view on the Up.

60983 has the Delaval sidings to Holloway ECS.

[great northern]

2 hours ago, jwealleans said:

 

If this is the M&GN, are these possibly ex-LMS vehicles?

Definitely not Jonathan, as the book clearly states which trains are formed of LMS stock.Photos seem to confirm that the PN trains, with one exception, were entirely composed of LNER stock.

[great northern]

More of 60983, one of Top Shed's pet V2s, and turned out accordingly.

[New Haven Neil]

Oh, what a splendid shot of Gresley's finest design!

[great northern]

Rationing again, I'm afraid. Still no light. But at least it is another one for the V2 Appreciation Society.

[great northern]

Desperate measures this morning, as I pulled all the blinds back to catch what light there was. I was rewarded with occasional brightness, and managed to get quite a few shots, so we can go back to the normal two images. Next in is the 8.05 FO KX-Newcastle, a train composed entirely of end door seconds, topped and tailed by four compartment brakes. It will stop here, and Dominion of Canada has the brakes on as it comes towards Platform 3.

 

[Clive Mortimore]

On 14/03/2024 at 23:07, St Enodoc said:

Any photo showing the underside of Crescent Bridge is a winner for me.

Top side is better with a b.....................................................

 

 

No buses on it when I went under it today.

Edited March 17 by Clive Mortimore

[great northern]

60010 is still at the far end of the canopy, but some judicious cropping brings it closer.

I quite like this. Shortly it emerges, and passes our nice lady, who has remarkable staying power.

[great northern]

10 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Top side is better with a b.....................................................

 

 

No buses on it when I went under it today.

..........beautiful lady walking across it, I presume you were going to say. It would have been considered OK to say that in 1958 anyway.

[St Enodoc]

3 minutes ago, great northern said:

..........beautiful lady walking across it, I presume you were going to say. It would have been considered OK to say that in 1958 anyway.

It's still OK now, as far as I'm concerned.

[great northern]

2 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

It's still OK now, as far as I'm concerned.

I agree John, but it would not surprise me if, in the crazy world we now inhabit, there is some "ist" group, probably with a very small membership, which would like to make a lot of negative noise about it.

[great northern]

Back to one again tonight, as today's light went elsewhere. 60010 is at rest,and with ten on doesn't quite obstruct the barrow crossing.

Just an attempt at something a bit different again.

[davidw]

Gilbert, quick A4 question if I may. 

Other than on the Elizabethan did Haymarket A4s show up down south?

I've acquired another one (as one does) I've loads of Kings+ locos and wondered if I could justify another Haymarket loco. I've 60009. 

Like wise Gateshead locos were occasionally on the Talisman? Any others. Thanks in advance.

 

[great northern]

1 hour ago, davidw said:

Gilbert, quick A4 question if I may. 

Other than on the Elizabethan did Haymarket A4s show up down south?

I've acquired another one (as one does) I've loads of Kings+ locos and wondered if I could justify another Haymarket loco. I've 60009. 

Like wise Gateshead locos were occasionally on the Talisman? Any others. Thanks in advance.

 

In my experience, very rarely. I only saw most of them on visits to Doncaster Plant, and the rest on the Elizabethan. I can't recall ever seeing one on an ordinary service. Three times in1958 both Up and Down Elizabethans were worked by Haymarket engines, so a very small percentage, and in the several years I spent at the lineside I never had the good fortune to experience that. I have two, 60012 which was the regular Lizzy engine from August onwards, and 60031, which appeared twice on the Lizzy in August, failed at KX on one occasion, and was run in to Peterborough and back before going back to Scotland. A very tenuous excuse indeed!

 

As to Gateshead engines, by 58 they were more regularly used on through trains to and from London, and so are easier to justify. I do remember seeing 60018/19/20 on three successive Up trains one Saturday at Grantham, but that was a one off experience.

[davidw]

46 minutes ago, great northern said:

In my experience, very rarely. I only saw most of them on visits to Doncaster Plant, and the rest on the Elizabethan. I can't recall ever seeing one on an ordinary service. Three times in1958 both Up and Down Elizabethans were worked by Haymarket engines, so a very small percentage, and in the several years I spent at the lineside I never had the good fortune to experience that. I have two, 60012 which was the regular Lizzy engine from August onwards, and 60031, which appeared twice on the Lizzy in August, failed at KX on one occasion, and was run in to Peterborough and back before going back to Scotland. A very tenuous excuse indeed!

 

As to Gateshead engines, by 58 they were more regularly used on through trains to and from London, and so are easier to justify. I do remember seeing 60018/19/20 on three successive Up trains one Saturday at Grantham, but that was a one off experience.

Thanks Gilbert. 

I believe Merlin was regularly rostered on the Lizzie. So was thinking of that one. The alternatives would be 60013 or 60028. Is it possible to have too many A4s.....?

[great northern]

1 minute ago, davidw said:

Thanks Gilbert. 

I believe Merlin was regularly rostered on the Lizzie. So was thinking of that one. The alternatives would be 60013 or 60028. Is it possible to have too many A4s.....?

Which one is it that you have acquired David? 

[davidw]

The latest is Mallard. Which I've already got. So it'll  be renamed renumbered to something else. It's got a 1936 A4 corridor tender. Late crest.

All mine are late crest...

[great northern]

Yet more of 60010. When you can see cloud cover advancing, there is less time to be able to set up more trains. At least it is a very clean A4.

 

[great northern]

More 60010. The first one taken on the same day as all the rest.

The second was taken some day later, when I got occasional moments of real sunlight. I think you will see the difference.

Though now I look at it, and with the new screen I think there is too much colour saturation.

[60027Merlin]

23 hours ago, davidw said:

Gilbert, quick A4 question if I may. 

Other than on the Elizabethan did Haymarket A4s show up down south?

I've acquired another one (as one does) I've loads of Kings+ locos and wondered if I could justify another Haymarket loco. I've 60009. 

Like wise Gateshead locos were occasionally on the Talisman? Any others. Thanks in advance.

 

David,

 

Just for your info with the exception of the Non-Stop, no Haymarket A4s or their other pacifics appeared on workings south of Newcastle apart from visits to Doncaster Works.

 

Gateshead and Heaton along with Carlisle Canal, Glasgow Eastfield, Dundee Tay Bridge and Aberdeen Ferryhill Sheds were told (in strong terms) by Haymarket that their engines had to return home as per the diagram. The Haymarket crews of course, knew of this instruction and made sure that their engine came back with them!

 

Eric