Peterborough North

[James]

If the 9F is moving under direct instructions from the signaller and there's a clear understanding, they may have felt there was no need for lamps. The lamps are only there to tell interested parties what class of train it is, but if all involved know, then the crew may not have bothered. Not strictly how it should be (unless the box instructions allow for it) but things don't always happen as they should!

[davidw]

You've really captured the essence of the ER with that photo

[hornbyandbf3fan]

You don't need to worry, like you say, the space you have lets you down and you can't help that. It's a brilliant photo!

[Worsdell forever]

Brilliant!   I'm just thinking that the A1 needs to be on the next track further over and a little bit forward.

 

I think the 9F in the original photo is coming off the train, the radius rod looks to be below centre so it would be in forward gear.

 

 

 

 

(I'm amazed that this is my first post on here! Shame on me...  )

[Fat Controller]

Some thoughts about containers:-

the Bird's Eye ones (AFP) were specifically intended for frozen food (including fish and fish fingers)- these would have come from their plants around Grimsby.

The containers, if any, in the Aberdeen Fish, would probably have been the larger AFC or F types, conveying fresh fish. Could there have also been FM containers, conveying Scottish beef from Donald Russell for Sainsbury's, I wonder?

[great northern]

If the 9F is moving under direct instructions from the signaller and there's a clear understanding, they may have felt there was no need for lamps. The lamps are only there to tell interested parties what class of train it is, but if all involved know, then the crew may not have bothered. Not strictly how it should be (unless the box instructions allow for it) but things don't always happen as they should!

Thanks James. I have a 1955 Trains Illustrated which contains an article by G Freeman Allen about Peterborough in the "Resorts for Railfans" series. Apparently he discovered all sorts of "unofficial" local working practices. If the 9F is moving forwards though, it will most likely be heading for New England shed, and so would pass several more signal boxes on the way. Would they get away with passing all of those with no lamps I wonder? I have some strange shots at the South end as well - locos clearly hauling stock, and yet with light engine lamps. Normally the caption claims the loco is leaving with an Up train, but I reckon these movements are ECS down to Nene carriage sidings. I suppose that any place would have been the same though, local arrangements between experienced people who all knew what they were doing, but would save a bit of time and effort if possible.

[jwealleans]

I've done some digging, although I can't claim to have had my nose in books since last week and it looks pretty bad for containers in fish trains. Plenty in ordinary fitted goods, though, so you'll be able to snap up all those Bachmann A types when they appear and learn the joy of the securing chains.

[great northern]

Brilliant!   I'm just thinking that the A1 needs to be on the next track further over and a little bit forward.

 

I think the 9F in the original photo is coming off the train, the radius rod looks to be below centre so it would be in forward gear.

 

 

 

 

(I'm amazed that this is my first post on here! Shame on me...  )

Welcome aboard Paul!  The A1 is on the Down main, both on the original and on my photo, but I have had to leave out a complex series of tracks into the Down bays, as there wasn't enough width to include them, so that throws the whole thing out somewhat. This is not really the end I should choose when trying to compose like for like shots, as it soon shows up the compromise involved, but I like to have a go occasionally. You can just see to the left of the A1 the way the sidings on the Up side veered off almost at right angles, and there was a 60 ft turntable over there as well. I'd need about a ten foot wide baseboard to do all that properly.

[great northern]

I've done some digging, although I can't claim to have had my nose in books since last week and it looks pretty bad for containers in fish trains. Plenty in ordinary fitted goods, though, so you'll be able to snap up all those Bachmann A types when they appear and learn the joy of the securing chains.

Andy had a good look through some of my books last week Jonathan, but we didn't find much evidence of containers either. The photos I have are all of the Hull trains though, so I can't be sure about the Grimsby ones, other than that the Birds eye containers are too late for my period. There is still the evidence of that HMRS Journal article though that says that two fish vans, and another container carrying fish on a conflat were added to the back of the 0730 Grantham - KX on a day in July 1958, so it appears they did exist. Andy did however find plenty of evidence of "ordinary" vans in the formation of the Hull fish trains though. They were Up trains too, so it wasn't a case of adding a few other empties to a returning train of fish vans.

[great northern]

Sunday saw another visit by Peter Leyland, and more work on the platforms. You may well have noticed, but have been too polite to mention, that there were some unsightly gaps between the surface of the excursion platform and the side walls. I have a nasty feeling they were caused by my failing to build the basic platform shell properly, but Peter was too polite to mention that too. Anyway, he did the necessary remedial work, and things now look much better.

 

More work was done under the overall roof too - I'll try to get a shot of that later.

[great northern]

I'll bet some of you think I lead a really idle life, just lounging about apart from the occasional foray to hit golf balls sideways.   Well actually, some of the time you would be right, and I do find it hard to get around to actually doing things. Friday's visitor however was Andy Rush, and his influence has sparked an unusual burst of activity.   Some time ago Andy asked me to send him the details of the goods trains in my sequence, and a couple of weeks ago, without being asked to do so, he took the trouble to work out the likely content of each one, and to suggest how to make up the necessary cassettes. His impending visit spurred me on to see what I could actually do with the stock I had available, so on Friday the content of the five cassettes I had done were vetted by the expert. This was done in the most humane way possible, and as little pain and trauma as possible was caused to any item of stock.

 

Anyway, most of what I had done met with approval, and where comment was necessary it was made in a very helpful and constructive way. Many thanks Andy. I just need 13 more cassettes now to accomodate the remaining necessary stock. A fair bit of that stock also has to be acquired, so locoholism is on hold for the time being. Among the stock I do have are in excess of 20 unfitted vans. Alas I now discover that by 1958 most of them would have been converted to fitted stock. As I bemoaned the necessity of purchasing another load of stuff it was suggested to me a little while ago that I might like to consider just repainting most of what I already have. Jolly spiffing idea that! So, in an unprecedented burst of activity, I did. There was a carriage and wagon repair shop adjacent to the old engine shed, though I don't have room to include it on the model, and for some reason a rake of vans has been parked up along the excursion platform temporarily, the work to convert them having been partly completed. And here they are.

 

stretching away into infinity.............

 

 

I did take the trouble to ensure that none of them are exactly the same colour by adding small quantities of light and dark brown to the basic bauxite, but for some reason that doesn't show up much on the photos.   It does when you see them "in the flesh" though, honest.

 

 

They will very shortly be shunted back into works, where roofs will be dealt with individually, general weathering will be applied, plus numbers and such like detail, and those likely to be on the ends of trains will be piped. I can't do anything abouit the fact that there are far too many of the same type, but with the assistance of Andy Jonathan and Tim I'll add some more variety as time goes by.

 

[jwealleans]

there are far too many of the same type

 

I think that can work to your advantage - a few obviously different ones to break up the rake, but basically the fairly uniform appearance which freight trains seem to acquire more and more the further after nationalisation you get.

 

Some of those traders posters you can get (Hollar Models?) might look good.  Spillers seems an obvious candidate, unless there's something more local to PB which you can get hold of.

[Fat Controller]

To give a bit more visual variety, you might consider fitting some with the appropriate LMS fitted underframe with long springs and J-hangers, available from those awfully nice people at Parkside. Most van trains seemed to follow two rules:-

No more than 20% of the vehicles in any one train to be of the same Diagram Number or company of origin (except in the case of Company Trains, using purpose-built stock)

No more than two identical vans adjacent to one another.

I've looked in vain for this written down somewhere in the relevant 'Instructions to Railway Staff', but haven't yet found it...

Peterborough would have seen lots of seasonal traffic, such as 'beet nuts' from the local sugar refinery; if the practice in the 1950s was like that of later years, these would often include lots of older vehicles, which would be stored out-of-season, perhaps including some unfitted vans, and even odd pre-Grouping survivors.

I can recommend the Hollar labels (once I worked out how to peel them off the substrate..); they're all types that would be seen nationwide. The other thing is to get some sheets of the chalked routeing/loading instructions, which vehicle sof the period seemed to be plastered with- here, the rule seemed to be 'chalk anywhere, except on the black panel provided'.

[great northern]

The other thing we got done on Sunday was to put a surface on the Up main platform under the roof. I had hoped we might get away without doing it, but a lot more is visible under there than I anticipated. So, here's the result, with a Down express just entering at the far end.

 

Now I can't leave it there can I? The spotters want to know which A4 it is.

 

 

Well, it's the Down Talisman, but a common KX A4 yet again. And as I'm getting better at framing shots that don't need much, or any, photoshopping, I'll throw in this one of Tottenham Hotspur standing in number one bay waiting to leave with the late afternoon March stopper.

 

And finally..... I've had an idea. Yes, another one! I've probably exceeded my quota for the whole year now. As I bought a big roll of velcro that I now don't need as foam inserts are perfectly good end stops for cassettes, it occurred to me that I can put strategically placed velcro strips on the fascia where a plain backdrop is needed, and put some more on a sheet or three of Daler board, thus giving me a moveable backscene. it may even allow me to do away with the card covering the ****** book shelves, which is a nuisance when I want to get at a book. We shall see.

 

And finally I hope all this lot makes up for the dearth of photos over the last week.

 

 

[Theakerr]

Gets better with every photo session

[wilks]

The other thing we got done on Sunday was to put a surface on the Up main platform under the roof. I had hoped we might get away without doing it, but a lot more is visible under there than I anticipated. So, here's the result, with a Down express just entering at the far end.

roof.jpg

 

Now I can't leave it there can I? The spotters want to know which A4 it is.

 

10.jpg

 

Well, it's the Down Talisman, but a common KX A4 yet again. And as I'm getting better at framing shots that don't need much, or any, photoshopping, I'll throw in this one of Tottenham Hotspur standing in number one bay waiting to leave with the late afternoon March stopper.

1630.jpg

 

And finally..... I've had an idea. Yes, another one! I've probably exceeded my quota for the whole year now. As I bought a big roll of velcro that I now don't need as foam inserts are perfectly good end stops for cassettes, it occurred to me that I can put strategically placed velcro strips on the fascia where a plain backdrop is needed, and put some more on a sheet or three of Daler board, thus giving me a moveable backscene. it may even allow me to do away with the card covering the ****** book shelves, which is a nuisance when I want to get at a book. We shall see.

screens.jpg

 

And finally I hope all this lot makes up for the dearth of photos over the last week.

Am I correct this the first time Tottenham Hotspur has appeared? Is it a new Hornby model renumbered.

 

Last year I finished making a Hornby/Comet chassis'd Tottenham Hotspur with a modified Hornby B12 GE tender. The more I look at it the better the B17 looks with the GE tender.

 

Great layout.

[Brass0four]

Brilliant!   I'm just thinking that the A1 needs to be on the next track further over and a little bit forward.

 

I think the 9F in the original photo is coming off the train, the radius rod looks to be below centre so it would be in forward gear.

 

 

 

 

(I'm amazed that this is my first post on here! Shame on me...  )

 

 

 

Although I've been a lurker for some time, this is my first post on RMweb. At 65, from Tynemouth, NE UK, I went school in Newcastle and so was privileged to witness ECML steam towards the end. Having said that, I'm new to the hobby and profoundly ignorant of so much. This excellent layout has been a joy and a tuition. These sorts of layout: Peterborough North, Little Bythem and Retford (I'm sure there are others) models Tony Wright describes as *prototype* layouts, are becoming of  real Historical value, IMHO. 

 

Anthony aka Brass0four.

[New Haven Neil]

Another Geordie - brill!

 

I'm just waiting for someone to tackle Newcastle Central in the same vein as Gilbert has done Peterborough!

 

I'm taken with that B17 still, and I 'don't like them'!  each time I see it, it eats a little further into my reserve...

[great northern]

Another Geordie - brill!

 

I'm just waiting for someone to tackle Newcastle Central in the same vein as Gilbert has done Peterborough!

 

I'm taken with that B17 still, and I 'don't like them'!  each time I see it, it eats a little further into my reserve...

Newcastle?  That really would be some project. Need a fair bit of space too.......  No B17's there though, you'll need to come further South, when your reserve has been diminished a little further. Would you like me to post another photo?   Or even two?

[Mallard60022]

I'd be getting Norman to build that/those crossings - what a task!

It might be easier to model the area just west of Heaton as modelling Central would be an absolute mammoth undertaking? Loads of loco movement, plenty of freight, weird electrics and the main line with Pacifics rarely noted in the 'south'.

Gilbert, I think you have thrown down the gauntlet with this idea - wouldn't it be great to see.

I'm 'half' Geordie so may I have some more pics please?

P

[New Haven Neil]

Oh, go on then, if you must......

 

I have always thought Newcastle would make an ultimate model, for someone with the necessary resources - the crossing, as my feathered compatriot says, would be the ultimate expression of handbuilt trackwork.  It also has a built-in continuous run for runnng in new models.  B16's would be the thing then of course, not 17's!

 

Oh, and handy bridges to lift out for access....

[Mallard60022]

Argghhh, those two bridges and the Quayside branch/sidings below and Gateshead dirt production plant. The Castle the trolly buses; I'm starting to hallucinate.......

P

[Clive Mortimore]

Newcastle is the ideal train set, a big oval with a huge station one side and a masive loco depot the other. You just need to have a good pair of wadders as the operating well is the River Tyne

[New Haven Neil]

You'd need to be tall too - the river is a long way down!

 

So, back on topic....where's this B17 then?

 

edit for missing 'o'

Edited June 29, 2013 by New Haven Neil

[Fat Controller]

To give a bit more visual variety, you might consider fitting some with the appropriate LMS fitted underframe with long springs and J-hangers, available from those awfully nice people at Parkside. Most van trains seemed to follow two rules:-

No more than 20% of the vehicles in any one train to be of the same Diagram Number or company of origin (except in the case of Company Trains, using purpose-built stock)

No more than two identical vans adjacent to one another.

I've looked in vain for this written down somewhere in the relevant 'Instructions to Railway Staff', but haven't yet found it...

Peterborough would have seen lots of seasonal traffic, such as 'beet nuts' from the local sugar refinery; if the practice in the 1950s was like that of later years, these would often include lots of older vehicles, which would be stored out-of-season, perhaps including some unfitted vans, and even odd pre-Grouping survivors.

I can recommend the Hollar labels (once I worked out how to peel them off the substrate..); they're all types that would be seen nationwide. The other thing is to get some sheets of the chalked routeing/loading instructions, which vehicle sof the period seemed to be plastered with- here, the rule seemed to be 'chalk anywhere, except on the black panel provided'.

I know it's bad form to reply to one's own posts, but I found a nice photo which illustrates my point about non-uniform compositions. Taken on 2nd June 1962, at Haverfordwest, Pembrokeshire, it shows a down fully-fitted 'van' train. Part of the composition is as follows:-

ex-LNER fish van (12'wb)

3 ex-LMS vans (one with horizontal planks, one with these and diagonal bracings and one with vertical planks

ex-GWR planked van

ex-LNER, sliding door/corrugated ends.

ex-SR planked

a BR standard van

another ex-LMS van

ex SR ply, then planked, then another ply

another BR Standard

It then becomes to difficult to discern individual van types, but there are about ten more.

The only vehicles which are not 12t vans (apart from that first one) are two ESSO Class A fitted tanks and the brake van, which looks to be an unfitted GWR-designed 'Toad'. 

This type of composition, which would have appeared pretty uniform on paper, but is anything but in the photo, would have been typical until the beginning of the 1970s. I remember seeing the successors to this working, hauled by Hymeks, until I left Llanelli in 1973- the only difference was that there were now Conflats and fitted opens, and the brake van had gone.

Given the date, it wouldn't have been a seasonal working, as these tended to run in early spring (fertilizer) or autumn (fertilizer/animal feed), just a run-of-the mill fitted freight as you'd see all over the country; given its destination of Milford Haven, quite a large proportion of the vehicles were carrying MoD stores.