New Palvan announced

[Pre Grouping fan]

On 20/03/2024 at 18:01, hmrspaul said:

Are they in SR brown? 😒

 

Paul

 

I don't know what paint manufacturer/code the MHR use for their BR Bauxite but it is very dark in my opinion. Almost looks like maroon in some lighting.

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, AY Mod said:

38-950 BR 12T Palvan 'Pallet Van' BR Bauxite (Early) £           34.95

38-950A BR 12T Palvan 'Pallet Van' BR Bauxite (Early) £           34.95

38-952 BR 12T Palvan 'Pallet Van' BR Bauxite (Late) £           34.95

38-952A BR 12T Palvan BR Bauxite [W] £           36.95

38-954 BR 12T Palvan 'Johnnie Walker Whisky' Green £           34.95

38-954A BR 12T Palvan 'Johnnie Walker Whisky' Green £           34.95

Wot no Izal !  (something which i say with mixed feelings).  Very nice of Bachmann to do the bauxite ones in the right markings etc detail for me.

[cctransuk]

5 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Wot no Izal !  (something which i say with mixed feelings).  Very nice of Bachmann to do the bauxite ones in the right markings etc detail for me.

 

IZAL pallet vans were not the same diagram as the standard pallet vans - they were longer.

 

However, if you want Rule 1 IZAL vans, I can supply the transfers.

 

John Isherwood,

Cambridge Custom Transfers.

[Porcy Mane]

Very nice. The decoration of B782042 looks particularly clever with the representational evidence of the removal of the Batchelors plate and the blanking out of the XP branding but shouldn't B769951 have the end chalk board in the more common R.H. side position along with it having no handles on the doors?

 

If it comes in at a premium price in the same region of the vanwide then details like that should be correct.

 

P

[Michael Hodgson]

3 hours ago, Pre Grouping fan said:

 

I don't know what paint manufacturer/code the MHR use for their BR Bauxite but it is very dark in my opinion. Almost looks like maroon in some lighting.

I thought they commented on the shade themselves in the announcemment.

[Michael Hodgson]

I've got a couple of kit-built Palvans, but I'm tempted as these outclass my efforts.

I won't be going for the Whisky one on bile green though.

[Richy59]

Was quite excited for these but now a little disappointed that most of them - especially the ‘early’ ones - have ‘Return To’ markings on the sides. Make it really quite limiting for locations. Probably have to pick up the ‘late’ variation with the yellow ‘circuit’ designation - although it’s still not quite right.

 

Hopefully some plain ones will be in a future run. 

[cctransuk]

55 minutes ago, Richy59 said:

Was quite excited for these but now a little disappointed that most of them - especially the ‘early’ ones - have ‘Return To’ markings on the sides. Make it really quite limiting for locations. Probably have to pick up the ‘late’ variation with the yellow ‘circuit’ designation - although it’s still not quite right.

 

Hopefully some plain ones will be in a future run. 

 

PALVANs were designed for a new traffic - manufactured goods loaded on pallets.

 

As such, they were constructed for, and allocated to specific traffic flows - hence their RETURN TO .... markings.

 

Later, they were used for other routes, and the original markings were painted-out, and perhaps relettered.

 

If your modelling period coincides with the introduction of PALVANS, the markings are appropriate; if later, an obvious painting-out would probably be correct.

 

CJI.

 

[Steamport Southport]

I would have thought the products in the Return to Port Sunlight van would get almost everywhere though as it's labelled MARGARINE.

 

So as long as there were the facilities to unload it, it would have probably travelled quite a bit to places that needed margarine. Stork was Lever Brothers ISTR. 

 

 

Jason

[Richy59]

20 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

PALVANs were designed for a new traffic - manufactured goods loaded on pallets.

 

As such, they were constructed for, and allocated to specific traffic flows - hence their RETURN TO .... markings.

 

Later, they were used for other routes, and the original markings were painted-out, and perhaps relettered.

 

If your modelling period coincides with the introduction of PALVANS, the markings are appropriate; if later, an obvious painting-out would probably be correct.

 

CJI.

 

Thanks, I’m not really sure of the traffic tbh and where it all ended up tbh. Would they mostly have been used on specific workings and express goods between cities?

 

What does the ‘circuit’ mean, was that just worked a specific circuit route?

[cctransuk]

1 minute ago, Richy59 said:

Thanks, I’m not really sure of the traffic tbh and where it all ended up tbh. Would they mostly have been used on specific workings and express goods between cities?

 

What does the ‘circuit’ mean, was that just worked a specific circuit route?

 

When first introduced, the PALVANs would have worked mainly in block trains to distribution depots, and then were returned to the factory. The CIRCUIT marking meant that the wagon was to be confined to that routing, to the best of my knowledge.

 

A single PALVAN in a mixed goods train would have been unusual in the early days of their use.

 

CJI.

[Wheatley]

2 hours ago, Richy59 said:

Was quite excited for these but now a little disappointed that most of them - especially the ‘early’ ones - have ‘Return To’ markings on the sides. Make it really quite limiting for locations.

As CC points out, that's because they were quite limited in locations, at least loading points. Amongst others you've got: 

 

Ammunition from ROF Glascoed

Tinned peas from Batchelors at Wadsley Bridge.

Lever Bros traffic from Port Sunlight

Campbells soup from King's Lynn 

Bagged powdered milk from Kirkcudbright Creamery. 

 

Once loaded they could go anywhere where the customer needed 12 tons of tinned soup, or margerine or anti-tank shells or whatever. They might have been loaded by forklift but if necessary palleted or mechanically loaded goods could be handballed off (citation available if needed but it'll clutter the thread up if not). So unlikely to turn up at a wayside goods shed but very likely to run yard to yard thence to a main distribution point. 

Edited May 1 by Wheatley

[Michael Hodgson]

18 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

A single PALVAN in a mixed goods train would have been unusual in the early days of their use.

 

That's because the facilities in a traditional goods stations didn't run to a  forklift.  You'd have a couple of barrows and maybe a hand-worked crane

['CHARD]

27 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

 So unlikely to turn up at a wayside goods shed but very likely to run yard to yard thence to a main distribution point. 

 

For those modelling a route that carried a large volume of yard to yard Class 4 fast freight trunkers, then, these would definitely not be out of place, originating elsewhere and destined for a remote end user beyond the receiving yard.

 

Sounds like pet food, margarine and munition shells, to name but three, could be viable. Am I correct in thinking that whisky wasn't palletised; ale was crated but not conveyed in Palvans.

[Wheatley]

28 minutes ago, 'CHARD said:

Am I correct in thinking that whisky wasn't palletised; ale was crated but not conveyed in Palvans.

The Johnny Walker Palvans were apparently used only in and around Kilnarnock, between the blending and bottling plants. Now that is a bit niche. 

 

http://www.srpsmuseum.org.uk/10142.htm

 

Not come across any evidence of the BR ones in general whisky distribution but then I haven't looked ! 

['CHARD]

Yeah, now you mentioned it, it really does feel a bit 'niche.' 

[Steamport Southport]

Could be ideal if you want a small layout based on a Scottish distillery worked by a Ruston or Barclay. They did seem to have quite a few distilleries.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnnie_Walker#Expansion_and_growth

 

 

 

Jason

[Southernman46]

On 01/05/2024 at 20:16, Richy59 said:

Was quite excited for these but now a little disappointed that most of them - especially the ‘early’ ones - have ‘Return To’ markings on the sides. Make it really quite limiting for locations. Probably have to pick up the ‘late’ variation with the yellow ‘circuit’ designation - although it’s still not quite right.

 

Hopefully some plain ones will be in a future run. 

I really wouldn't get too hung up on this issue - the "Return to" markings would still be on the wagons long after the particular traffic finished and from observation remained on wagons into internal user use / the end of their lives.

i.e Internal user @ Boston Dock

 

Edited May 3 by Southernman46

[hmrspaul]

On 01/05/2024 at 13:46, Porcy Mane said:

Very nice. The decoration of B782042 looks particularly clever with the representational evidence of the removal of the Batchelors plate and the blanking out of the XP branding but shouldn't B769951 have the end chalk board in the more common R.H. side position along with it having no handles on the doors?

 

If it comes in at a premium price in the same region of the vanwide then details like that should be correct.

 

P

 

They have done a good job considering the photo they were working from is not so clear. The Return to is partially unreadable and the wagon was condemned. https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brpalvan/e3100a632 

And this has the later brake rigging. 

 

One use not mentioned (I think) is the Weymouth Channel Island traffic. This one https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brpalvan/e347d1e47  is dual Return to - Weymouth and Feltham. Of course, Feltham is not where they were unloaded but the aggregation yard for those distributed to London area depots - NIne Elms for example was enormous! 

 

Paul

https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brpalvan

 

Edited May 2 by hmrspaul

[Enterprisingwestern]

On 01/05/2024 at 20:16, Richy59 said:

Was quite excited for these but now a little disappointed that most of them - especially the ‘early’ ones - have ‘Return To’ markings on the sides. Make it really quite limiting for locations. Probably have to pick up the ‘late’ variation with the yellow ‘circuit’ designation - although it’s still not quite right.

 

Hopefully some plain ones will be in a future run. 

 

Bachmann tampo printing generally scratches off with a fingernail, even if not it is easy to remove.

 

Mike.

[Fredo]

Hi, did these vans used to work on block trains only, or were they split into mixed trains? Thanks Fred

[Steamport Southport]

21 minutes ago, Fredo said:

Hi, did these vans used to work on block trains only, or were they split into mixed trains? Thanks Fred

 

Definitely seen photos of them in normal trains in ones or twos. They are pretty distinctive.

 

You might not have seen them at your local branch line station though.

 

 

 

Jason

[Porcy Mane]

25 minutes ago, Fredo said:

Hi, did these vans used to work on block trains only, or were they split into mixed trains?

 

Two of the three with Batchelors branding. Batchelors came under the Unilever umbrella in 1963.

 

 

Plenty of photographic evidence of  them running singly or in pairs upwards. York and Tyneside was a good area to see this with Palvans (and vanwides) engaged in Rowntrees traffic.

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 01/05/2024 at 23:09, Wheatley said:

Not come across any evidence of the BR ones in general whisky distribution but then I haven't looked ! 

I would much less want to put whisky in Palvan than munitions, much more risky. My Great Uncle was chief clerk in the bonded warehouse at the local yard so knew quite a bit about loss and damage to the product in transit.😉

[Michael Hodgson]

20 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

I would much less want to put whisky in Palvan than munitions, much more risky. My Great Uncle was chief clerk in the bonded warehouse at the local yard so knew quite a bit about loss and damage to the product in transit.😉

 

You can still have explosions if it's whisky you're storing