Dogmatix Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Can hardly wait... By the way, how are the NEM pockets affixed? Moulded into the bogie frames, on simple swivel mounts, or on proper extending-in-curves close coupling cams? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted November 29, 2012 Author Share Posted November 29, 2012 I wonder though if this may be an optical illusion? The Maroon one has a full Yellow end and I'm thinking this may alter the perception as opposed to one with a small, or no warning panel? The reason I say this is, when one is painting a model, each different colour that is applied changes the overall look of the model as one goes along. Just a thought..... I think you have something there Sean although I did also have the Lord & Butler yellow bufferbeam one in my hands too for a close look. Out of the snaps Dave's shown I'd say the last one is closest to the the real model whereas the previous images look a little too pale. The added issue is looking at colours in that hall light although there was a brief glimpse of direct light. I think some of the perception also relates to the gloss of an ex-works example and the light grabbing matt finish of an in-service loco. Add in the complexities of cleaning abrasion, different lights and all the rest of the variables and no-one will be definitive about it. Did the search engine have any paint samples or just the spec Dave? I did discuss with L&B about how much our memories of shades of previous models influence our perception of correctness rather than the prototype (certainly true of that BP thing ) Subjectively if it were a fraction richer and darker it may have more shelf appeal irrespective of whether it's right or not. 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold MikeParkin65 Posted November 29, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 29, 2012 After allowing for all of the variables of light, camera's and resolution I think that both the green and the blue are spot on. The maroon for me still needs to be slightly deeper and to move one shade nearer red (and therefore away from pink). I'm not saying that it is pink but it is slightly pale. I take the point about the effect the full yellow panel has as opposed to a small yellow panel and of course by the time that variant appeared in traffic the maroon would be well worn. Regarding the difference in shades of early and later class members, in 'Diesels In Depth - Westerns' (Clarke & Jennison, 2007) it states that the first Swindon locos were coach maroon whilst the Crewe locos were LMR Stanier Pacific maroon but the difference in hue was insignificant and not noticeable in service (page 36). The picture on the same page of 1039 coupled to a maroon Mk1 clearly shows that the difference between coach and loco maroon however. . I'm still definitely on for a green one, remain to be convinced on the maroon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted November 29, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 29, 2012 Subjectively if it were a fraction richer and darker it may have more shelf appeal irrespective of whether it's right or not. A very pertinent point Andy. At the end of the day even the best model of an item isn't going to turn a profit for its manufacturer if it sits on the shelves. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted November 30, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 30, 2012 (edited) Subjectively if it were a fraction richer and darker it may have more shelf appeal irrespective of whether it's right or not. I did not see them in Maroon, to remember anyway, so am not qualifed to comment on how close the model is to the prototype, but I would certainly agree with Andy that a slightly richer and darker hue would have wider appeal - and certainly to me. One other possible test - how does the maroon compare when placed next to a Bachmann Warship in maroon. After all, the prototypes ran together so if they are the same colour that might be a good indicator - or were the Warships coach rather than loco maroon? Edited November 30, 2012 by brushman47544 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted November 30, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 30, 2012 I did see Westerns in maroon and while it was a long time ago my memory suggests today's 1015 is not the same shade and the photos above are on the pink side. My recollection - from several years around Penzance and Hayle stations - is of a deeper richer colour altogether notwithstanding the fact that some locos in traffic would have been begrimed. Others by contrast might have been a little faded but only in extreme cases to the colour rendered in Dave's photos. The Bachmann Warships and Heljan Westerns are about right to my eye. And I re-iterate I have not seen the Dapol samples so if they appear to the eye the same as those others then all's well and good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
45568 Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 (edited) Subjectively if it were a fraction richer and darker it may have more shelf appeal irrespective of whether it's right or not. Have to agree with Andy here. I remember seeing 1001 at Snow Hill when it was almost brand new, and thinking how rich the maroon was, and definately different to the ex-LMS pacifics. Yet, a few days later seeing 1006 heading north at Tyseley, again almost brand new, describing to my Dad that it seemed almost metallic brown, ( rays of setting sun!! on the side as we cycled home). Seen in the confines of Snow Hill, the early maroon examples cerainly looked much richer in colour. See the pic. L&B are using for their pre-pub. shots. (I was 11-12 y.o. at the time!). The Trix model seemed to capture the colour depth, but I also remember how clean and shiny the new locos. were. As an afterthought, I have ordered 1000 from Steam; they will deduct VAT and post Airmail signed-for to Oz, so any other antipodeans wavering...thanks Geoff for your prompt reply! L&B's variant was a very close second, and even now.... cheers, Peter C. Edit. Having just looked again at the L&B image, it seems to be "metallic brown" I mentioned above, (cf. the coach behind it). V.K.Welch did one of his paintings as a colour plate in the abc combine around this time, his was cetainly a darker more purple maroon. Still think the maroon looks too pink on the model pix Dave, sorry. Edited November 30, 2012 by 45568 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DapolDave Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Hi guys, a picture sent from china this morning of the lineup of painted bodies currently in China, including another shot of the maroon, and grey roof on the green. thoughts still please? cheers Dave 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted November 30, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 30, 2012 (edited) The maroon is still too pink for my liking. Deeper and richer please. Reference pictures as compared with the sample shown:- Heyday of the Hydraulics (Dady) p.17 D1027 appears much darker, closer to purple than pink p.20 D1045 appears darker p.26 D1041 (bulled up for the Royal train) appears darker ex-paint shop p.40 D1039 appears similar but is obviously faded and careworn p.45 D1040 appears darker p.52 D1054 appears much darker p.54 D1045 is extremely battered and weathered but appears almost the same Rear cover D1067 appears darker and much richer. Balance of the evidence presented = the true colour is darker and richer than the sample until it has had a lot of trips through the carriage washer and been parked in the sun. Edited November 30, 2012 by Gwiwer 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 The green with grey roof looks good. Not so sure about the Maroon, I think slightly darker and richer please. I will leave the verdict on the blues to those who model that era. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gerbil-Fritters Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 that sample picture is a: too small and b: there is a lot of white bounce light - no way to accurately judge the colour from that, especially with the maroon which is picking up a huge amount of bounce from the table top. I wonder - are the colours painted directly onto light grey plastic? I recall that for a decent red or maroon top coat you should have a nice red undercoat... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold MikeParkin65 Posted November 30, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 30, 2012 Hi guys, a picture sent from china this morning of the lineup of painted bodies currently in China, including another shot of the maroon, and grey roof on the green. thoughts still please? cheers Dave I still think the shade is 'wrong'. Best full size current example of the colour I think you need is that currently carried by streamlined 6229 Duchess of Hamilton. This has the richness, depth and blood redness which I think the Western needs. 6229 was painted at Tyseley using a paint matched to the original formula as I recall - Anthony Coullis of the NRM is a regular contributor to the National Preservation forum and I'm sure would be able to help with the specification. And if David Jenkinson was right about there being only one shade of maroon used since Midland days then it is a modern incarnation of the actual shade. I fully appreciate how frustrating this must be for you and I'm sure we all on this forum are grateful for the lengths you are going to to get this model right! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DapolDave Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Im now wondering if i should source a maroon Heljan western for colour matching? it would be easier than delaying the project further. what's the consensus here regarding this models colour? cheers Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gerbil-Fritters Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 (edited) There are some nice maroon westerns and a maroon warship here... they all look much pinker than I would have believed... Edited November 30, 2012 by Dr Gerbil-Fritters Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold MikeParkin65 Posted November 30, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 30, 2012 Im now wondering if i should source a maroon Heljan western for colour matching? it would be easier than delaying the project further. what's the consensus here regarding this models colour? cheers Dave Dave, Should be easy to acquire a Heljan example - very many available for sale on ebay, no idea why!! Heljan rendition of maroon much closer to prototype in my humble opinion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Endacott Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 You could also source a Bachmann maroon Warship. Geoff Endacott 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
campaigner Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 I would agree with the comments regarding Heljan maroon 52's. By the time I got to see the westerns in the "flesh" they were all blue and only ever saw the maroon ones in photographs. I saw a picture of the then newly restored 1062 Western Courier and thought WOW that looks fantastic, a few months later I got to see it for real and was very surprised how much darker the colour was in real life as opposed to photos. Looking at my Heljan 1010 right now, I think it's bang-on for colour. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted November 30, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 30, 2012 There are some nice maroon westerns and a maroon warship here... they all look much pinker than I would have believed... Sorry but I wouldn't trust anything painted in preservation unless the source of the paint was establsihed and colour verified. I agree - use a Heljan maroon western and/or Bachmann maroon Warship and match them. Avoids the issue of undercoat and lighting - when they're the same colour as the Dapol Western side by side then you're in business. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugd1022 Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 (edited) I'd go for a darker / deeper maroon Dave. Great to see those photos being posted though! Maroon livery in preservation is a tricky one - when D821 was painted maroon by the DTG lads a couple of years back, fresh out of the workshop and in strong daylight it looked a touch pinkish purple, but after a couple of seasons of running parts of the bodywork now look much darker with ingrained dirt and oil stains. I would certainly agree that an out of the box (ie: not the pink weathered version!) maroon Bachmann Warship would be a good guide. Nidge ;o) I know this is a pres image taken in dull light but I'd still say it's not a bad comparison... workstained D1062 and D821... Edited November 30, 2012 by Rugd1022 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogmatix Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Dave, how are the NEM pockets affixed? Moulded into the bogie frames, on simple swivel mounts, or on proper extending-in-curves close coupling cams? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 For what it's worth, that's how I remember to maroon D1000s at Birmingham Snow Hill, when they were new. Regards, John Isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 The best I can do http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brmainlineloco/e4db7dade Warship D811 in 1966 - looks a bit pink to me - possibly because on Afga CT slide film? Sorry, my only early Western photos are in black & white. Paul Bartlett 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasslands Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 I think the BR Blue ones are looking like a much nicer shade, and a much improved colour match (compared to the first runs of baby warships). I also concur with all maroon comments, including the Heljan/Bachmann remedy. Looking forward to these. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Neal Ball Posted December 2, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 2, 2012 Dave, When are the Blue Westerns likely to be in the shops? Early 2013 now? Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
D1059 Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 The maroon is still too pink for my liking. Deeper and richer please. Reference pictures as compared with the sample shown:- Heyday of the Hydraulics (Dady) p.17 D1027 appears much darker, closer to purple than pink p.20 D1045 appears darker p.26 D1041 (bulled up for the Royal train) appears darker ex-paint shop p.40 D1039 appears similar but is obviously faded and careworn p.45 D1040 appears darker p.52 D1054 appears much darker p.54 D1045 is extremely battered and weathered but appears almost the same Rear cover D1067 appears darker and much richer. Balance of the evidence presented = the true colour is darker and richer than the sample until it has had a lot of trips through the carriage washer and been parked in the sun. I don't have the book to hand here at work, but are any of those shots on Agfa CT18 ? Pics of maroon Westerns and Warships on CT18 tend to look far more a 'plum' shade of maroon than those taken on Kodachrome, especially if the slides have been stored for 40-50 years in less than ideal conditions. I know Hugh Dady is a stickler for ensuring shots of the highest quality end up in books with his name on the cover, but you can only work with whats available - no chance of going back and reshooting. STEVE Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now