Wright writes.....

[Headstock]

There's probably a few on the Southern with the upcoming Restaurant Cars.

 

You could also make a decent representation of the Pullman expresses. I think at one point Hornby have made nearly every Pullman car that was in the Devon Belle including the Observation Cars.

 

 

 

 

Jason

 

Jason,

 

I'm not that up on the majority of Southern workings, weren't the Maunsel Restaurant Cars relatively rare, especially after the rebuilding programmes of the late 40s and mid-50s. Still, fifteen carriages is a bit of an ask. I can think of a summer WTT interregional train that loaded up to ten carriages (with twelve on a Friday) that could be modeled with Hornby Maunsels including the new Restaurant Car but only prior 1951 (The Restaraunt Car was axed after that date) With regard to the Devon Belle, 'decent representation' seems to imply you may have to build and paint something. Did the Devon Belle have fifteen carriages?

[Mallard60022]

There's probably a few on the Southern with the upcoming Restaurant Cars.

 

You could also make a decent representation of the Pullman expresses. I think at one point Hornby have made nearly every Pullman car that was in the Devon Belle including the Observation Cars.

 

 

 

 

Jason

SR Expresses from/to Waterloo were restricted in length due to Platform length at Waterloo; 13 coach max IIRC. Occasioanlly Up trains from Exeter, that were longer than 13,  had coaches dropped at Salisbury to follow on.

Phil (@ Seaton Junction

[t-b-g]

This notion of 15 bogie carriages being a prototype length for us to aspire to is a bit of a red herring.

 

In the history of our railways, there can have been no more than a tiny percentage of real trains of that length. The number of modellers who have the space to recreate one to scale on a model of a place where they really ran is also tiny.

 

So I am not sure if is a sensible yardstick to measure performance with. It is an exception and an extreme, rather like a 100 wagon freight train.

 

Frank Dyer used to write about how he tried to achieve realism by modelling the typical rather than the exceptional. That is an approach I can happily identify with.

 

I am probably in a minority but when I see layouts where superbly modelled trains canter past at 65 or 70 mph, I care little whether the carriages are the right diagram for that working in that period. I struggle to identify more than the loco and a carriage before they are past me.

 

They might as well be the nearest equivalent RTR for all I can see.

 

That all changes when a layout is photographed or when trains stop but in the flesh, I think you could get away with carriage diagram heresy!

Edited July 8, 2018 by t-b-g

[Mallard60022]

Jason,

 

I'm not that up on the majority of Southern workings, weren't the Maunsel Restaurant Cars relatively rare, especially after the rebuilding programmes of the late 40s and mid-50s. Still, fifteen carriages is a bit of an ask. I can think of a summer WTT interregional train that loaded up to ten carriages (with twelve on a Friday) that could be modeled with Hornby Maunsels including the new Restaurant Car but only prior 1951 (The Restaraunt Car was axed after that date) With regard to the Devon Belle, 'decent representation' seems to imply you may have to build and paint something. Did the Devon Belle have fifteen carriages?

Nope.

[davefrk]

. I want to be wowed by a recreation of the midday scot circa 1953, not sent to sleep by a generic line up of Bachmann MK 1's. With apologies to the video above, an impressive demonstration of the importance of minimizing rolling resistance.

 And I agree with you, but the video was only a trial for the loco after adjusting the centralised bogie spring and tender coupling to see what the effect would be. The two coach rakes involved were correct for the 1958 Thames Clyde and the Waverley expresses and included two LMS twelve wheel diners one with brass sides but both with brass bearings so the Jub would be able to handle either train easily. The Midland line wasn't known for long trains so authentic 9 and 10 coach trains on a model are quite easy to do.

Did anyone notice that there was actually no valvegear on the right hand side of the Jub?

Forgot to mention - the Bachmanns are having the roof ribs reduced and weathered as seen in the last three coaches.

 

Dave.

Edited July 8, 2018 by davefrk

[micklner]

That's very fine work, Mick,

 

I assume the donor loco was a Bachmann A2? If so, is it not worth raising the rear end (I used brass washers) so that the loco footplate matches the height of the tender's soleplate? 

 

All Bachmann's A1s and A2s suffer from this disparity. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Photos on a more level surface. Other side of Loco as not shown before. 

 

 

 

While I am here something a bit different a Varney Transport Replica kit van.

 

[Steamport Southport]

Jason,

 

I'm not that up on the majority of Southern workings, weren't the Maunsel Restaurant Cars relatively rare, especially after the rebuilding programmes of the late 40s and mid-50s. Still, fifteen carriages is a bit of an ask. I can think of a summer WTT interregional train that loaded up to ten carriages (with twelve on a Friday) that could be modeled with Hornby Maunsels including the new Restaurant Car but only prior 1951 (The Restaraunt Car was axed after that date) With regard to the Devon Belle, 'decent representation' seems to imply you may have to build and paint something. Did the Devon Belle have fifteen carriages?

 

I just said Southern, I didn't specify Railway or Region.

 

Usually twelve, but often thirteen or fourteen. Is that close enough? Two photos here with fourteen.

 

http://www.semgonline.com/misc/named_14.html

 

 

What I meant by "decent representation" is that I don't think Hornby has released all the cars by name/number for an exact set, some are from the up and others the down set, but with a bit of switching then you could get a fourteen coach train. Or by using a little bit of effort to rename/number them.

 

 

I know that this might not be relevant to ER/LNER workings, but it was mainly to point out that full sets of purely RTR carriages are available for some.

 

 

 

Jason

[Headstock]

This notion of 15 movie carriages being a prototype length for us to aspire to is a bit of a red herring.

 

In the history of our railways, there can have been no more than a tiny percentage of real trains of that length. The number of modellers who have the space to recreate one to scale on a model of a place where they really ran is also tiny.

 

So I am not sure if is a sensible yardstick to measure performance with. It is an exception and an extreme, rather like a 100 wagon freight train.

 

Frank Dyer used to write about how he tried to achieve realism by modelling the typical rather than the exceptional. That is an approach I can happily identify with.

 

I am probably in a minority but when I see layouts where superbly modelled trains canter past at 65 or 70 mph, I care little whether the carriages are the right diagram for that working in that period. I struggle to identify more than the loco and a carriage before they are past me.

 

They might as well be the nearest equivalent RTR for all I can see.

 

That all changes when a layout is photographed or when trains stop but in the flesh, I think you could get away with carriage diagram heresy!

 

I've never been sure what prototypical or scale length means.

 

I think that you are in the majority in that you care little about what the locomotives are pulling. On the other hand, I take a great deal of interest it what the locomotives are pulling, a layout has to convince in that regard for me or it fails. If you want to model the typical, what better place to start than looking more closely at what was going on behind the locomotives.

[Headstock]

I just said Southern, I didn't specify Railway or Region.

 

Usually twelve, but often thirteen or fourteen. Is that close enough? Two photos here with fourteen.

 

http://www.semgonline.com/misc/named_14.html

 

 

What I meant by "decent representation" is that I don't think Hornby has released all the cars by name/number for an exact set, some are from the up and others the down set, but with a bit of switching then you could get a fourteen coach train. Or by using a little bit of effort to rename/number them.

 

 

I know that this might not be relevant to ER/LNER workings, but it was mainly to point out that full sets of purely RTR carriages are available for some.

 

 

 

Jason

 

Thanks Jason,

 

that makes thing clearer. Has anybody modeled it? 

[Bucoops]

As LB is on the ECML is it worth mentioning that during WW2 it wasn't unheard of for 25 coach trains on that line? Not the norm but happened a few times.

[Headstock]

 And I agree with you, but the video was only a trial for the loco after adjusting the centralised bogie spring and tender coupling to see what the effect would be. The two coach rakes involved were correct for the 1958 Thames Clyde and the Waverley expresses and included two LMS twelve wheel diners one with brass sides but both with brass bearings so the Jub would be able to handle either train easily. The Midland line wasn't known for long trains so authentic 9 and 10 coach trains on a model are quite easy to do.

Did anyone notice that there was actually no valvegear on the right hand side of the Jub?

Forgot to mention - the Bachmanns are having the roof ribs reduced and weathered as seen in the last three coaches.

 

Dave.

 

Thanks Dave,

 

I thought I spotted two big Dining cars in there but the resolution was a little low, I picked out the branding and a flash of white table tops. Some years back I did the 1949 version of the Thames Clyde express, it also contained a six wheel Dining car. Not surprisingly the stock was all LMS, with a long tail of corridor thirds. In between 49 and 58, I believe there was at one time a Kitchen car in the train.

[cctransuk]

.... it also contained a six wheel Dining car....

 

I take it that's a twelve-wheeled dining car?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Headstock]

I always do that when I get overexcited.

Edited July 8, 2018 by Headstock

[Clive Mortimore]

As LB is on the ECML is it worth mentioning that during WW2 it wasn't unheard of for 25 coach trains on that line? Not the norm but happened a few times.

Isn't this based one a story of one V2 hauling a 20+ coach train.

 

The reason Tony's trains are 14 coaches long is called Kings Cross. The platforms at Kings Cross could only take 14 coaches until the revised track plan of 1977. York Road platform could take 6 short coaches and a loco which gives the length of track from the platform ends to Gas Works Tunnel. How far into the tunnel was the locomotive. How long would it take to load a 25 coach train remembering 11 of the coaches would not be next to the platform and the passengers would have walk through the train, which takes time. It would have been on one of the Down lines. This would have blocked off any arrivals to the suburban station, all locomotive movements to and from the loco yard, and making the station almost inoperable until it departed. It must have been a logistic nightmare.   

Edited July 8, 2018 by Clive Mortimore

[Bucoops]

Isn't this based one a story of one V2 hauling a 20+ coach train.

 

The reason Tony's trains are 14 coaches long is called Kings Cross. The platforms at Kings Cross could only take 14 coaches until the revised track plan of 1977. York Road platform could take 6 short coaches and a loco which gives the length of track from the platform ends to Gas Works Tunnel. How far into the tunnel was the locomotive. How long would it take to load a 25 coach train remembering 11 of the coaches would not be next to the platform and the passengers would have walk through the train, which takes time. It would have been on one of the Down lines. This would have blocked off any arrivals to the suburban station, all locomotive movements to and from the loco yard, and making the station almost inoperable until it departed. It must have been a logistic nightmare.   

 

I *think* (which is always dangerous) - there were less departures so it had less of an impact - and yes I believe a V2 put in a very spirited performance on at least one occasion, especially considering the reduced maintenance for the period. Logistic nightmare though? - I think that counts as an understatement

[Headstock]

The V2's are often referred to as 'the engines that one the war', due to their prodigious haulage of giant troop trains on a regular basis during the conflict. Departures of 20+ carriages out of Kings cross where regular occurrence as the LNER sought not to resort to double heading. I think that the largest train recorded behind a V2 was twenty-six carriages fully loaded with servicemen, traveling south between Peterborough and Kings Cross. The V2's were not the only locomotives tasked with such large trains, mention has already been made up the thread of the twenty-one carriages worked by A4 Capercaillie, were the locomotive maintained a steady 75.9 mph.

[robertcwp]

Isn't this based one a story of one V2 hauling a 20+ coach train.

 

The reason Tony's trains are 14 coaches long is called Kings Cross. The platforms at Kings Cross could only take 14 coaches until the revised track plan of 1977. York Road platform could take 6 short coaches and a loco which gives the length of track from the platform ends to Gas Works Tunnel. How far into the tunnel was the locomotive. How long would it take to load a 25 coach train remembering 11 of the coaches would not be next to the platform and the passengers would have walk through the train, which takes time. It would have been on one of the Down lines. This would have blocked off any arrivals to the suburban station, all locomotive movements to and from the loco yard, and making the station almost inoperable until it departed. It must have been a logistic nightmare.   

Or was the train platformed in two parts then shunted together just before departure?

[Headstock]

Or was the train platformed in two parts then shunted together just before departure?

 

Evening Robert,

 

the train was in two parts that were assembled for final departure, the loco would be standing in Gass work tunnel awaiting the right of way once the two halves were joined.

[grahame]

Frank Dyer used to write about how he tried to achieve realism by modelling the typical rather than the exceptional. That is an approach I can happily identify with.

 

Yep, agree with that.

 

It's modelling the commonplace, usual and ubiquitous that is essential (and often most difficult) to replicate railways accurately. And is the route to realism and attaining that illusive quality - atmosphere.

 

G

[Tony Wright]

Tony, a question if I may, regarding the pulling power of RTR versus kit built loco’s. I find that RTR locomotives can pull anything up to thirty or more modern lightweight RTR coaches on the level, including around 3 foot radius curves. (Provided you don’t have anything too heavy coupled on the rear end in which case the lightweight coaches can derail on the curves). This implies that your kit built rolling stock is significantly heavier, which leaves me wondering what weight of train you are talking about pulling on LB? Have you weighed them, or measured pulling power more precisely than a simple observation? It would be interesting to see some comparative stats about the relative pulling power of your loco’s versus their off-the-shelf equivalents, given how often the subject crops up here.

 

Phil

Good evening Phil,

 

I have never conducted any 'scientific' tests on Little Bytham with regard to the weight of its trains. All I know, from observation, is that heavier, all-metal kit-built carriages are more difficult for RTR locos to pull. This has little to do with their rolling resistance on the move. Most, though not all, have pin-point bearings in white metal bogies. My plastic-bodied cars, but with metal sides, also have white metal bogies. Some of those bogies have old-fashioned stub-axles. 

 

On Friday, I took some new all-metal coaches to a friend to show him. He commented on how heavy they were - in some cases near twice the weight of an RTR (near-equivalent). Though they're free-running, it's the effort needed to get these heavy carriages rolling where lightweight RTR locos struggle. Giving a helping hand (literally), they'll eventually run round with 11/12/13 metal carriages, but they won't start them. No trains of that length stop at Little Bytham, so it's in departing from the fiddle yard that the extra weight of kit-built locos is needed. All departures from the yard are (near) on the straight, with a foot or two at each end before a 180 degree curve needs negotiating. The RTR locos will just slip on departure, and are completely lost on the 180 degree curves (where, in some cases, the train is all on the curve). Given a hand, once on the (almost) straight scenic section (26' long), they'll happily romp away, slipping a fair bit all the time. This, obviously, is of no use to me. 

 

As for train lengths on LB, consulting a 1950s (early) East Coast Carriage Working document, I find such trains as the 1.00 a.m. Kings Cross-Newcastle/Edinburgh loaded to 14 bogies, the 9.30 a.m. Kings Cross-Edinburgh loaded to 13, the 9.40 a.m. Kings Cross-Newcastle loaded to 13, the 9.50 a.m. Kings Cross-Edinburgh (SO) loaded to 14, the 10.00 a.m. Flying Scotsman loaded to 13, the 10.50 Kings Cross-Glasgow loaded to 14, and so on. Granted, there are some lighter trains, but other than the Mk.1s (and now the Bachmann Thompsons) many of the cars in the trains will have to be kit-built/modified, including all the gangwayed Gresleys. 

 

Using my darling wife's kitchen scales, I've just done some 'baking'; the results being (in English)............

Bachmann Mk.1: 6 oz

Comet Mk.1 (type not available RTR): 10 and a half oz.

Bachmann Thompson: 6 and a half oz.

Comet Thompson: 10 oz.

BSL Thompson: 9 oz.

MJT Gresley RTO: 11 oz.

Hornby/Trice Gresley RK: 7 oz.

Comet Gresley BTK: 9 and a half oz.

Southern Pride/Bachmann/Trice RTP: 8 oz.

Hornby old-style Pullman car (not refitted with metal bogies): 5 oz.

Hornby new-style Pullman car: 6 oz.

Hornby/Comet/Trice Pullman car: 8 oz. 

Hornby non-gangwayed Gresley: 5 oz.

Comet non-gangwayed Gresley 8 and a half oz. 

 

These are as 'accurate' as kitchen scales allow, but there is a marked difference in weights. In some cases, multiply the differences by ten and more and it all adds up to very heavy, metal kit-built trains, in comparison with plastic RTR ones.

 

Just out of interest as well...............

 

Bachmann A1 (including tender) with added ballast: 20 oz.

DJH A1 (including tender) with added ballast: 2lb, 2 oz! 

 

I concede, all of the above is very unscientific; at best, it's only anecdotal. However, we all have different 'needs' for hauling trains on our model railways, and not many run trains as long as (some of) those on LB. If one only needs to run short trains, often of lightweight stock, then RTR locos (steam-outline) would appear to be entirely adequate. In some cases (as seen) RTR steam-outline locos will haul long trains of RTR stock. That said, no train on LB (other than the Morning Talisman) can be accurately made-up using just RTR carriages. In some cases, no RTR carriages are suitable (definitely not Hornby's gangwayed Gresleys), so a couple of 13-car expresses are made up entirely of kit-built/modified cars. 

 

My heavy trains are beyond RTR Pacifics' haulage capabilities. That's why they're of little use to me. But, that's me; I'm sure others (with 'lesser' needs?) get on perfectly well with them. 

 

As for the haulage capacity of non-steam-outline RTR locos, Robert Carroll brought his Kernow 1-Co-Co-1 Bulleid diesel round today. He took some moving footage; now, that shifted anything! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited July 8, 2018 by Tony Wright

[Compound2632]

DJH A1 (including tender) with added ballast: 2LB, 2 oz! 

 

Having formerly had a professional interest in weights & measures, I'm intrigued by the use of the "Little Bytham" as a unit of mass. What's its equivalent in the SI unit, kilogram?

[Theakerr]

I may have mentioned this before, however bearing in ind the current discussion I think it is worth repeating.  A number of years ago on another forum an engineering type calculated the difference in load on code 100 track between coaches that pull through the body and coaches that pull through couplings attached to the bogies.  Essentially it was 17% more for coaches pulling through couplings attached to the bogies.  I am not that type of engineer but I can without too much effort see the extra load placed by the side thrust of the wheel flanges on the track when pulled through a coupling on the bogies.  I realise this is not of consequence on Tony's coaches since they are all pulled through the body but if wants to model longer trains using RTR locos and coaches it is significant.

[Mallard60022]

SR Expresses from/to Waterloo were restricted in length due to Platform length at Waterloo; 13 coach max IIRC. Occasioanlly Up trains from Exeter, that were longer than 13,  had coaches dropped at Salisbury to follow on.

Phil (@ Seaton Junction

I'm not quite sure what is funny about this information?

[Mallard60022]

The V2's are o? ften referred to as 'the engines that one the war', due to their prodigious haulage of giant troop trains on a regular basis during the conflict. Departures of 20+ carriages out of Kings cross where regular occurrence as the LNER sought not to resort to double heading. I think that the largest train recorded behind a V2 was twenty-six carriages fully loaded with servicemen, traveling south between Peterborough and Kings Cross. The V2's were not the only locomotives tasked with such large trains, mention has already been made up the thread of the twenty-one carriages worked by A4 Capercaillie, were the locomotive maintained a steady 75.9 mph.

Must have gone to Kings Cross Goods as the station was not big enough surely?

[Headstock]

Must have gone to Kings Cross Goods as the station was not big enough surely?

 

That's what I was thinking unless there was some nifty shunting in the station throat.