Dapol Streamlined Railcar

[melmerby]

No, the later angular railcars had slightly larger engines than the streamlined versions and were geared for a lower top speed.

No.1 had a single 121hp engine, top speed 60mph

Nos 2-17 had 2 x121hp engines

Both the above had 3' 1" wheels

Nos 2-4 had a top speed of 75mph

 

No.18 had 2 x 121hp engines and 3' 2" wheels

Nos 19-38 had 2 x 105HP engines and 3' 2" wheels

Most had a top speed of about 40mph but Nos 19 & 20 had dual speed gearing allowing 60mph where favourable conditions allowed.

 

Above from RCTS

 

Keith

[Roy Langridge]

That will be the sort of vapourware that started to be delivered last month, that mine arrived last week and that I fitted a sound decoder on Sunday.

 

You are right "Just remember some people spout utter rubbish on here with no basis whatsoever". Unfortunately at the moment you are one of those people

 

Luke, very happy with his weathered DJModels 71

Woosh. I suggest you read my post again.

 

Roy, very happy with his two blue DJ 71s

Edited June 3, 2017 by Roy Langridge

[runs as required]

Reading the last two pages of this thread has left me completely bewildered - what on earth is vapourware ? It sounds like a total waste of everyone's time - to type, post and read.

What I suppose I mean is that these 'announcements' by the RTR makers seem to take years to materialise, so much so that they seem frustratingly worthless. I don't ever remember these 'wish lists' being released as a marketing ploy in the days of Hornby Dublo, Dinky and foreign exotica like Fleischmann.or Rivarossi.

 

I have a special affection for those striking 1930s GW railcars from the time we were courting in the late 1950s.  I lodged at Ironbridge, wife was then a student in Coventry and we would meet outside St Chads, Colmore Row, Brum to go out south and westwards for the day from Snow Hill.. The railcars still ran out west of Kidderminster.

But I never ever saw them work northwards on the SVR through Ironbridge to Shrewsbury  - my morning commute was usually a (boring !) Collet 0-6-0s with 2/3 ex GW coaches.

 

I'm looking forward to a Dapol model to compare with the chocolate and cream Lima that still growls steadily around my DCC oval at a scale 40mph for an hour or so at a time.

dh

[Ozexpatriate]

Reading the last two pages of this thread has left me completely bewildered - what on earth is vapourware ?

Vapourware is a term used to describe promised software that either never eventuates or when it does, doesn't work very well.

 

At some point in time, the term was used by a poster somewhere on RMweb in reference to an announcement by DJ Models.

 

Suppliers are dam'ed if they do and dam'ed if they don't in terms of advance announcements.  We've seen every possible combination of simultaneous long term announcements of the same item and a long term announcement of a product where a competitor has well advanced but unannounced development. Sometimes everyone proceeds and sometimes only one supplier proceeds. Ultimately someone always loses in this scenario.

 

Duplication helps no one, except perhaps with very popular items like LNER A3, A4, Tornado and BR coach models for which there appears to be a larger market that can tolerate duplication.

 

Given the number of different prototypes actually available in the dark ages of Dublo, duplication was not nearly as likely as it is today - wish lists or not, let's give the marketing people of the RTR companies some credit. As far as new product announcements go, mostly they are going to choose something that:

1. They think will sell
2. Hasn't been done before or
3. Hasn't been done to contemporary standards 

With those parameters the list is relatively small - wish lists or no, hence the announcement game to create excitement, mindshare and stake out a claim for future business. It is a direct result of the embarrassment of riches we enjoy as enthusiasts of British outline models.

Edited June 4, 2017 by Ozexpatriate

[Clearwater]

Out of interest is "vapourware" a term used outside of rmweb?

[woodenhead]

I'd heard it before, I think it is an internet phenomenon of things being offered for sale that don't exist.

 

In the case of the Dapol railcar, Dapol have displayed various versions of the EPs at shows, they have a mechanism for it and the 121/122 chassis and everything they postponed recently had not been seen outside of CAD so why on earth they would pull something they had actually tooled i don't know.

 

I am looking forward to it coming out

[Vistisen]

Out of interest is "vapourware" a term used outside of rmweb?

yes it started in the software industry.

[kandc_au]

I first saw vapourware used with regards to DJM.

I know I definitely saw it on a blog of a member or former member and can only assume they had a personal axe to grind as that was the feeling I got!.

I think since then people have become a bit cynical and it is being used more and more.

As far as the Dapol railcar goes I don't understand why as they have updated us as they have had something to say.

Maybe not as soon as people wanted , but at least updated us as I said.....when there was something to say!

 

khris

[dibber25]

I have a Dapol 122 which I've just reviewed for Model Rail. I understand the Class 121s will follow and the GWR railcars after that. Modellers should understand that once they see decorated samples from any manufacturer,  that means the tooling has been done and a major investment has been made. It also means that the only thing that can be altered at that stage, is the livery. If masks have been made, it's likely only the base colour can be changed. Factors such as cash flow and warehouse capacity will dictate how speedily new models follow one another and all manufacturers have been affected by the economy and particularly the value of the £, resulting in a slowing-down of the production processes across the ready-to-run market. (CJL)

[jjb1970]

I think the cynicism arises from the seemingly interminable delays between product announcements and product delivery in some cases. In some cases I can't help feeling that announcements were just a land grab, bagsy the class xxxxx, with some intention to get around to doing it at some time in the future. In fairness to Dapol they're no worse than Bachmann and Hornby went through a bad patch a few years ago.

Something I would say about Dapol is that if they can address their QC and livery/colour gremlins then they're producing some of the best OO models around now. Both the class 73 and 68 are beautifully done if you look past the avoidable qc and colour/livery lapses. In my opinion the underlying models are better than other releases which generate a lot more froth here. Dapol are very close to being market leading, they just need to nail those annoying lapses.

[dibber25]

I think the cynicism arises from the seemingly interminable delays between product announcements and product delivery in some cases. In some cases I can't help feeling that announcements were just a land grab, bagsy the class xxxxx, with some intention to get around to doing it at some time in the future. In fairness to Dapol they're no worse than Bachmann and Hornby went through a bad patch a few years ago.

Something I would say about Dapol is that if they can address their QC and livery/colour gremlins then they're producing some of the best OO models around now. Both the class 73 and 68 are beautifully done if you look past the avoidable qc and colour/livery lapses. In my opinion the underlying models are better than other releases which generate a lot more froth here. Dapol are very close to being market leading, they just need to nail those annoying lapses.

I think, in most cases although I understand manufacturers' reluctance to admit it, the 'interminable delays' are actually the result of trimming their expectations and slowing the programmes of new releases in order to match their expenditure more closely to their income. In other words, they are no different to we modellers in budgeting what they can afford to spend in the immediate future. Whereas we do it month by month or week by week, they have to make predictions on a year to year basis. It's the "I'd like a new sofa but I can't afford it this month" approach. Their position is made worse by having to predict what we're likely to spend on model trains and we all know our budgets are getting tighter. I don't think we should be cynical and I certainly don't think we should presume that it's some wicked land-grab to prevent someone else doing the same model. After all, who is rushing to produce anything new, these days? Announcements well ahead of the delivery are particularly useful to the smaller peripheral producers for whom duplication could be a disaster. I know one potentially 'fatal' duplication that was avoided thanks to the early announcement of a model that we have yet to see in production. (CJL)

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...Dapol are very close to being market leading, they just need to nail those annoying lapses.

...ran in the easy winner, except for those awkward types who finished ahead of him...

 

Out of interest is "vapourware" a term used outside of rmweb?

 Long enough to have made it into printed dictionaries around 1990; as abovestated originating in the IT industry for promises of future functionality which fail to appear promptly, definitely in circulation in the late eighties for announcements of both software and hardware functionality that hadn't materialised. (The term 'vapourer' and thus 'vapouring', used in much same contexts as accusations of spouting hot air, is centuries old usage.) Sadly the term 'vacuumware' for stuff that hadn't appeared and it was now confirmed never would (or even could) appear, seems to have failed to obtain a grasp on permanency.

[Clearwater]

...ran in the easy winner, except for those awkward types who finished ahead of him...

 

 

 Long enough to have made it into printed dictionaries around 1990; as abovestated originating in the IT industry for promises of future functionality which fail to appear promptly, definitely in circulation in the late eighties for announcements of both software and hardware functionality that hadn't materialised. (The term 'vapourer' and thus 'vapouring', used in much same contexts as accusations of spouting hot air, is centuries old usage.) Sadly the term 'vacuumware' for stuff that hadn't appeared and it was now confirmed never would (or even could) appear, seems to have failed to obtain a grasp on permanency.

Thanks - I'd not heard the term prior to reading it on rmweb and had assumed, dangerous I know, that vapour was a steam related pun. Which I suppose is the original use...

[No Decorum]

I think, in most cases although I understand manufacturers' reluctance to admit it, the 'interminable delays' are actually the result of trimming their expectations and slowing the programmes of new releases in order to match their expenditure more closely to their income. In other words, they are no different to we modellers in budgeting what they can afford to spend in the immediate future. Whereas we do it month by month or week by week, they have to make predictions on a year to year basis. It's the "I'd like a new sofa but I can't afford it this month" approach. Their position is made worse by having to predict what we're likely to spend on model trains and we all know our budgets are getting tighter. I don't think we should be cynical and I certainly don't think we should presume that it's some wicked land-grab to prevent someone else doing the same model. After all, who is rushing to produce anything new, these days? Announcements well ahead of the delivery are particularly useful to the smaller peripheral producers for whom duplication could be a disaster. I know one potentially 'fatal' duplication that was avoided thanks to the early announcement of a model that we have yet to see in production. (CJL)

Absolutely. We know pretty well why there were delays at Hornby, Bachmann and Dapol. In each case the reasons were different and they didn’t all happen over the same period. I’m quite sure that the manufacturers themselves didn’t want them any more than we did*. Announcing models as early as possible is a sort of “land grab” but I am greatly in favour of it if it helps to prevent models being duplicated. It might be interesting and instructive to compare, for example, the Hornby and DJM Class 71 but it would have been much better if one party had produced something else – one of the early AC electrics for example.

 

* Thanks to the rate at which models are appearing at the moment, manufacturers are probably less keen on delays than I am. I’m very likely to greet the news of a delay with relief!

[Roy Langridge]

I first saw vapourware used with regards to DJM.

I know I definitely saw it on a blog of a member or former member and can only assume they had a personal axe to grind as that was the feeling I got!.

I think since then people have become a bit cynical and it is being used more and more.

As far as the Dapol railcar goes I don't understand why as they have updated us as they have had something to say.

Maybe not as soon as people wanted , but at least updated us as I said.....when there was something to say!

 

khris

I don't think the term Vapourware has been used in relation to the Dapol railcar other than me being somewhat sarcastic about another post suggesting that it would not appear.

 

Roy

[jjb1970]

In some ways this is one of those developed world problems and nobody is suffering because a model is delayed. We have to keep this in perspective, and it's not like there aren't plenty of other releases to buy. That said, surely when a producer makes a decision to go ahead with a model they will produce some sort of business case which includes consideration of available resources and project delivery. When we see some announcements which appear to make no progress at all for years it is hard to avoid the feeling that it's basically a land grab. OK, it may avoid some duplication, but it may also prevent a supplier that would deliver the model much more quickly not having a go, in that case we are the losers. I think this is also linked to expectations in the modern market place, peoples expectations have been conditioned by very professional companies which deliver and when we see companies that don't do that it all feels a bit amateurish and like companies are just playing at it. I'd re-iterate that we have to keep this in perspective and it's hardly a great hardship for anybody.

[kandc_au]

I don't think the term Vapourware has been used in relation to the Dapol railcar other than me being somewhat sarcastic about another post suggesting that it would not appear.

 

Roy

Roy, I haven't seen it on this thread either....it's just that it was mentioned here as to what is it.

As I said saw it in reference to the 14/48 class loco's from Hattons and DJM.

And as those who have at least 1 know it isn't vapourware

 

Khris

[Karhedron]

No.1 had a single 121hp engine, top speed 60mph

Nos 2-17 had 2 x121hp engines

Both the above had 3' 1" wheels

Nos 2-4 had a top speed of 75mph

 

No.18 had 2 x 121hp engines and 3' 2" wheels

Nos 19-38 had 2 x 105HP engines and 3' 2" wheels

Most had a top speed of about 40mph but Nos 19 & 20 had dual speed gearing allowing 60mph where favourable conditions allowed.

 

Above from RCTS

Interesting, the Great Western Archive gives slightly different figures but does not quote a source.

 

8-17

2 x 8.85 litre AEC diesel, top speed 80mph

 

19-33

2 x 9.25 litre AEC diesel, top speed 70mph

 

I have the Noodle railcar book at home which should give the definitive answer. At least both sources agree that the answer to the OP's question is that the streamlined and angular railcars had different engine arrangements.

[Edwardian]

Looking forward to seeing these.

 

I remember when the Lima ones came out, they became a staple of GW BLT layouts (with or without any facilities for refuelling!), though in reality I suspect that a sleepy West Country rural branchline was the last place you would have seen any of these in Great Western days.  But, then, I am a great believer in Rule No.1.

 

But I love the rounded profile of the earlier cars Dapol has chosen. The design just shouts 1930s modernity.  None of my layout plans would justify one, but, I fully intend to bag one anyway. 

 

Looking forward to the new generation of Dapol OO gauge - this and the B4 dock tank - nice to see them back in the game.

[DavidB]

W22 at Didcot is definitely low geared, with great acceleration from a standing start.  The demonstration branch line is very short, but W22 easily gets into 3rd gear in little more than a few carriage lengths, so I would be surprised if it's capable of much more than the quoted maximum of 40mph (if it could ever be unleashed).  BTW, it's a beautiful machine with superb engine and gearbox sound effects, deep seat cushions and a very softly-sprung suspension that causes it to rock and bounce gently - interestingly it's about as different as it could possibly be from the tram seats and hard ride of Didcot's fabulous GW railmotor.

 

David

[melmerby]

Interesting, the Great Western Archive gives slightly different figures but does not quote a source.

 

8-17

2 x 8.85 litre AEC diesel, top speed 80mph

 

19-33

2 x 9.25 litre AEC diesel, top speed 70mph

 

I have the Noodle railcar book at home which should give the definitive answer. At least both sources agree that the answer to the OP's question is that the streamlined and angular railcars had different engine arrangements.

I have a reprint of a GWR book which agrees with RCTS that the later cars have the lower powered engines and also says they are also designed to pull a tail load of 60 tons.

 

Keith

 

EDIT according to a book by OS Nock the "Twins" were geared for 70mph working.

Some of the railcars were intended for express services and some were for branch/local services which could be why there are various top speeds quoted for them.

All the engines were of course standard with the current AEC bus engine.

Edited June 6, 2017 by melmerby

[John M Upton]

Pre-production example in the display cabinet at Gaugemaster's little show today:

 

[aussiebrfan]

Looking good.

 

G

[No Decorum]

It is nice, although the livery looks as it would in bright sunshine – not necessariily a bad thing. The roof pipe still looks too high up and too prominent. I can’t see any sign of the cables, which it was designed to protect, emerging and snaking across the roof.

 

An excellent photograph – thank you for posting it.

[Floreat Industria]

I see that Hattons are now quoting August/September for delivery.