coachmann Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 (edited) I know many of the Western Region locos plummeted in cleanliness from around 1963 onwards.....I saw it first hand. I am not criticising the weathering, but merely saying one might as well have started with a black loco seeing as none of the beautiful lined green was left after weathering had been applied on the model. Edited April 16, 2015 by coachmann Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted April 18, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 18, 2015 Bit the bullet and paid the price. Mine arrived today, and despite the whinges about fireiron hook sizes and step handrails on here it looks rather nice from normal viewing distance. My only gripe would be that the pickups were wildly out of adjustment, two not touching the wheels on the straight and the other four losing contact before the maximum lateral movement of the wheels was reached. Fixed in five minutes but shouldn't have been necessary. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold john dew Posted April 19, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 19, 2015 Bit the bullet and paid the price. My only gripe would be that the pickups were wildly out of adjustment, two not touching the wheels on the straight and the other four losing contact before the maximum lateral movement of the wheels was reached. Fixed in five minutes but shouldn't have been necessary. I agree.......I had exactly the same problem Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welsh Yorkie Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 (edited) Not sure if there's a reply to this, but 6433 (Merthyr) was lined green and no top feed; and remained so until it's death in early 63. In response to message 206. Edited April 19, 2015 by Welsh Yorkie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted April 20, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 20, 2015 Not sure if there's a reply to this, but 6433 (Merthyr) was lined green and no top feed; and remained so until it's death in early 63. In response to message 206. It seems pretty clear that not all of them acquired a top feed, just goes to show that you need to choose your prototype carefully, but it shouldn't be too difficult to find the right number of a top-feed fitted loco for the later BR era for most sheds/areas. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke_stevens Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 It seems pretty clear that not all of them acquired a top feed, just goes to show that you need to choose your prototype carefully, but it shouldn't be too difficult to find the right number of a top-feed fitted loco for the later BR era for most sheds/areas. In the Pannier Papers they mention that as boilers were changed loco's that had top-feeds could loose them if fitted with a boiler that didn't have a top-feed. So just because a loco got a top-feed didn't mean it would have kept it... Frustrating for us poor modelers! Luke Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted April 20, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 20, 2015 (edited) In the Pannier Papers they mention that as boilers were changed loco's that had top-feeds could loose them if fitted with a boiler that didn't have a top-feed. So just because a loco got a top-feed didn't mean it would have kept it... Frustrating for us poor modelers! Luke Swindon boiler swaps applied to all classes and meant that engines could, in effect, be backdated in detail terms. The only answer if you are fussy is to use reliably dated photos (of course that then opens up the problem of how do you know the photo is reliably dated?). Edited April 20, 2015 by The Stationmaster Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted April 20, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 20, 2015 Swindon boiler swaps applied to all classes and meant that engines could, in effect, be backdated in detail terms. The only answer if you are fussy is to use reliably dated photos (of course that then opens up the problem of how do you know the photo is reliably dated?). Which in turn could force one back to Rule 1.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les1952 Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 I know many of the Western Region locos plummeted in cleanliness from around 1963 onwards.....I saw it first hand. I am not criticising the weathering, but merely saying one might as well have started with a black loco seeing as none of the beautiful lined green was left after weathering had been applied on the model. Looking at a book of prewar colour photos of Big Four engines I would say that GWR locos were pretty filthy in the late thirties apart from a few high profile classes. Having said that the LMS might have been worse with the other two not much better..... Les Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium tanatvalley Posted April 21, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 21, 2015 I have been looking for colour photographic evidence of the colour of the front of the pannier tanks on lined green BR 64XX and I cannot find any. Whilst the Bachmann model of 6412 is black, is this based on its days in BR or preservation days? Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 I have been looking for colour photographic evidence of the colour of the front of the pannier tanks on lined green BR 64XX and I cannot find any. Whilst the Bachmann model of 6412 is black, is this based on its days in BR or preservation days? Alan Panniers were black if flush with the front of the smokebox and green if set back. Bachmanns loco is correct for the steam-era. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted April 21, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 21, 2015 On the cleaning front, there were the shed favourites which got cleaned and also those that were those regularly allocated to small branch sub sheds where the crew still had pride in the job and cleaned their trusty steeds. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted April 21, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 21, 2015 The other period which saw locos of every company/region presented in a begrimed state was the immediate post war period 1945 to1950. For freight locos,this period continued to their eventual withdrawal.in the early 60's. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium tanatvalley Posted April 22, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 22, 2015 Panniers were black if flush with the front of the smokebox and green if set back. Bachmanns loco is correct for the steam-era. Thanks Coachman. Is there any photographic evidence which supports this? As I wrote before I cannot find any. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted April 23, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 23, 2015 Thanks Coachman. Is there any photographic evidence which supports this? As I wrote before I cannot find any. I agree with Coachman, but much photographic evidence is a case of interpreting black & white images, sometimes of well-weathered locos. If I spot any definitive images which would nail it for you, I'll let you have the reference. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted April 23, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 23, 2015 CK, you seem to know loads about these Panniers. Consequently, I would appreciate it if you will buy me the 6430 BR version when it comes out please. Thanks in anticipation, P. Lonker. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 Thanks Coachman. Is there any photographic evidence which supports this? As I wrote before I cannot find any. It was common knowledge amongst serious modellers of the GWR at one time. I might still have the relevant document. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted April 23, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 23, 2015 CK, you seem to know loads about these Panniers. Consequently, I would appreciate it if you will buy me the 6430 BR version when it comes out please. Thanks in anticipation, P. Lonker. Happy to, Dr Quackster. You're happy with my 200% proxy shopping fee, of course? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium tanatvalley Posted April 23, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 23, 2015 It was common knowledge amongst serious modellers of the GWR at one time. I might still have the relevant document. I knew about the GWR livery of these pannier tanks but was unsure of BR green liveried examples. This is why I started looking for photographic evidence. The HMRS Great Western Way on page 16 has a very useful chart which confirms what you say. Please note I was not doubting you. What I find surprising is that I have not been able to find a colour photograph that shows the front of the locomotive pannier tanks and smoke box being black. The nearest I have got is in Welsh Railways - A Photographers View by Denis Dunstone introduces Alan Jarvis, gomer, page 48. Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 (edited) How many folk remember LNWR carriage livery in everyday service? David Jenkinson kept me informed on progress with a particular saloon in the NRM and even got the paint makers to prepare me a panel. I never saw the finished coach but no doubt it looked just as coaches did in LNWR days. But the interesting part was still to come. David phoned one day to say upper panels had started to take on a greenish tinge just as they had in LNW days. This was due to the effect of traditional varnish having a yellowing effect on the bluish white paintwork. Sometimes we have to rely on written evidence.........The outcome can be very illuminating!. Edited April 23, 2015 by coachmann 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
37079 Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 I've had a quick look and I've not found anything absolutely definitive - I found a few colour pictures but most of the locos in lined green are so dirty you can't tell. About the best I can do in the case for black ends is a shot of 6430 at Colyton in 'Western Steam in Devon and Cornwall (Welch)'. I must admit I thought black ends was the norm and there is plenty of black and white evidence that seems to support this...but then I found the shot of 6416 at Abernant in 'The Heyday of Steam in South Wales (Huntriss)' which seems to show this loco with green ends to the panniers. It could be a trick of the light or down to picture quality or the reproduction, but I'm almost convinced. If it was green, I suspect this was an oddity rather than the norm though. Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rail-Online Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 This is the best I can come up with regarding colour of the front. I recall when the original Tri-ang Hornby pannier came out they got the colour of the front wrong and it was said that the fronts were always black Tony 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke_stevens Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 This is the best I can come up with regarding colour of the front. I recall when the original Tri-ang Hornby pannier came out they got the colour of the front wrong and it was said that the fronts were always black Tony Ah.. painted in Great Western Pannier Grime # 1 Luke Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rail-Online Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 Ah.. painted in Great Western Pannier Grime # 1 Luke Yes but not much like the weathered RTR models............. This was what they really looked like. Tony 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted April 24, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 24, 2015 If you look at the pre-production photos of the lined green version, you will see green pannier tank fronts. Bachmann changed this to the correct black for the main production run, and I recall being pleasantly surprised when I picked mine up, because I had thought that I'd have to mask off the sides of the loco and give the front a re-spray... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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