Layout Track Plans in Exhibition Programmes

[Miss Prism]

I feel the OP made a valid and understandable case for doing what they did in their printed guide. Producing good layout plans is time-consuming, but I would endorse Coombe Martin's suggestion of putting any readily-available 'nice to have extras' on the club website.

[Kenton]

 

As one who would seem to have experience in these matters, perhaps Kenton, or anyone else, may like to advise as to how we convince our members to accept the additional cost of producing the programme and the resultant reduction in the cash surplus (profit) that we take from the day. Particularly, as with all exhibitions, this is our primary fund raising event for maintaining the viability of the society.

Hi s182ggu, I am coming to the topic somewhat late, for a change, already up to page 3. I thought I would quickly respond to the invite especially as my comment on the Wycrail topic seemed to get over egged somewhat.

Let's start again. The show was outstanding of the 15 or so shows I have attended this year and in particular of the standard of Wycrail shows in the past. They have always been good but the new venue seems to have breathed new life into the show (noted last year) and has taken it up in the league of shows.

My critisism is not one personally directed at Wycrail though it is included along with other shows of that standing that fail to include track plans. As I said on that topic, when you get everything else right there remains little more to improve on. Track plans in a show guide is one of those little things "the icing on the cake".

My immediate response to cost is how do the other shows manage it? Do they charge more for the guide? Do they bring on board more advertising? Do they have more punters through the door or a greater number of buyers of the guide? I don't know.

I have just grabbed two random guides off the pile "Scalefour News" "The Epsom Show 2013" They both include plans. "Scalefour News" doing it in a much clearer way. I can't remember what each charged - "Scalefour News" I think wa £1 but then it also contained a great deal more of valuable content to fill the pages. "The Epsom Show 2013" guide only contained 4 more pages than Wycrail 2013 and it managed to even add in a few photos of the invited layouts. So there is something happening here other than amount of paper. The "The Epsom Show 2013" is A5 like the Wycrail 2013 where as "Scalefour News" is A4.

Note these were randomly selected. IIRC Abrail, another 1 day show, also does track plans.

Now I do not know if any of these shows subsidise their guides from door entry receipts, and I must add that Wycrail is now exceptional value in terms of entry.

 

For me, a good show guide should certainly have an overall plan of the show itself - layouts, traders, tea/coffee, toilets etc.

I think that is a given and any guide even handed out free would be but waste paper without such basic information. Easily photocopied/printed on a sheet of A4. Charging for such a basic guide would be near criminal.

We are though here talking about show guides that are charged for, 50p in this specific example, that should recoup most if not all of their costs in that charge and advertising revenue.

Arguably if a track plan is not included then a short description is also of no relevance.

As for inclusion on a website - sure, but not the club's site as these are so variable in quality, but on the layout owner's site. I do suspect that many do not read the guide until they return home, when remembering a particular layout think what was that inspiring plan, how did that work?

[Geoff Endacott]

The Trainwest guides cost £700 to print. We sold £869 worth of advertising space.

 

Geoff Endacott

[Rivercider]

Aside from curious interest, I am not 100% sure why a track plan is required. Does a track plan in a show guide provide anything more than our eyes can tell us? Or is it this prevalent idea of wanting 'value for money' which means that organisers have to throw the kitchen sink at a booklet that 9 times out of 10 will end up in the bin - normally via a dusty drawer or box for a couple of years!

 

 

I have been fascinated by track plans ever since I got my first copy of Railway Modeller in 1970. 

I still look for them now in a guide, perhaps it helps put the layout into context, though I agree it is a bit illogical as I can also look at the actual layout,

see how it is operated and work out what is what.

So therefore nice but not essential.

 

I think if I were to be seriously considering a new layout, and one or more layouts at the exhibition were of similar design to my thoughts

I would be interested to have a copy of their track plans. Therefore an information sheet provided by the exhibitor would be very useful.

In the past when I have had conversations with operators of small layouts I particularly liked I have always been offered to take photos

make notes and been welcomed to look 'around the back' to see the fiddle yard if need be.

 

Having said all that has anyone noticed how often when a new layout is introduced on this site, complete with good photographic coverage

it is not many posts before someone posts 'Lovely layout mate, have you got a track plan?'

 

cheers 

[Penlan]

Uhmn, I hope nobody asks me for a track plan of Penlan for the coming years exhibitions, because all my details have been lost on a PC crash.

There is a long term project to try and recover some of the work done over this winter, but Railway and (Mousehole) Harbour Lights files seem to have gone astray, all bar one, and that is the layout's detailed setting out plan, which for me and exhibition managers is probably far more important/useful than a track plan of a simple passing station.

[Kenton]

 

If an exhibition doesn't make money from the show guide the organisers are getting something wrong.

 

Geoff Endacott

I think there is a certain tipping point here. Some shows a re simply too small, or local maybe, they do not attract the top layouts or at least a significant number of them. So for them a sheet of A4 handed out as a map of how to navigate the halls is acceptable. One day they may move up a league and attract the big expo layouts and when they do a proper show guide is what they should be aiming for.

 

At that point it should break even. There is no requirement for a guide to make money for the club, but at some point it may make its own small revenue to help with overall costs of the show.

 

My main issue with the so called added cost of adding track plans is the simple fact that some shows seem to do it.

 

We should remember also that the guide can have a lasting impact - perhaps I'm nerdy, but I tend to keep the show guides to look up layouts and remind me of what they were and to remind me that there is a good show to attend the next year. The poorer guides end up in the bin at the show when I leave (the how to get round the show being like loo paper - use once only and dispose of).

[Barry O]

One man's trackplan is another man's potential disaster.. as in

 

1 taking a hand drawn trackplan and turning it into a printable version can lead to errors

2 sometimes the track plans themselves are incorrect

3 it can be of more use to have a traditional map of where the layout is supposed to be and where it links up to.

 

Not everyone wants a plan, not all layouts supply one - no matter what you do as an exhibition organiser seems you just can't win.

[Flymo748]

I have just grabbed two random guides off the pile "Scalefour News" "The Epsom Show 2013" They both include plans. "Scalefour News" doing it in a much clearer way. I can't remember what each charged - "Scalefour News" I think wa £1 but then it also contained a great deal more of valuable content to fill the pages. "The Epsom Show 2013" guide only contained 4 more pages than Wycrail 2013 and it managed to even add in a few photos of the invited layouts. So there is something happening here other than amount of paper. The "The Epsom Show 2013" is A5 like the Wycrail 2013 where as "Scalefour News" is A4.

 

Note these were randomly selected. IIRC Abrail, another 1 day show, also does track plans.

 

Now I do not know if any of these shows subsidise their guides from door entry receipts, and I must add that Wycrail is now exceptional value in terms of entry.

 

Hi Kenton,

 

Just as an FYI regarding the Scalefour Society.  We regard the production of a quality show guide to Scaleforum as a significant thing to achieve as part of the whole experience of visiting.

 

The guide actually goes to all Society members, approaching 1900 of them, along with the September copy of Scalefour News.  We aim to have the same production values and "interest level" in what is put in the guide as in the News.  Indeed, we hope that visitors to Scaleforum will still find something of interest to read on the way home.

 

We can do something like this (16 pages of A4 size, glossy paper, full colour) precisely because we use the same printers as for Scalefour News, increasing the print run from (approx) 2,000 copies to 2,500 copies, which makes the marginal cost of the guides that we sell to visitors relatively small.  In fact, this year the cost of and income from the Scaleforum guides that were sold were almost exactly equal, so we had the budgeting almost spot-on.

 

In the past (I can't remember if it was the case this year or not) we have also included the September Scalefour News _with_ the Guide to Scaleforum, so non-members also have a copy of that to keep and read, and perhaps see what Society members receive as a benefit five times a year.  They may even consider joining us on the strength of it, even if they are not P4 modellers themselves, as it makes a damn good read.

 

Edit: And one thing that I forgot to say was that we don't rely on these as a "profit stream".  We now make the whole showguide available as a free download to all and sundry (yes, it was even publicised on RMWeb...) from our website at www.scalefour.org.  The download for 2013 has been removed now, to make way for 2014, but if anyone is desperate for a copy, just email me...

 

Cheers

Paul Willis

Scalefour Society Deputy Chairman

[Kenton]

Thanks Paul, for clarifying the situation on Scalefour News and show guide. As I said it was a random selection and tried to point out that the exceptional quality placed it more than just simply a show guide.

 

Probably the best comparison is with "The Epsom Show" guide as it is the same format and only 4 pages more yet contains track plans. (sure not every layout just the majority - those missing stand out as being less than complete).

 

Just for comparison I have just dug out Wycrail 2011 (so pre-move to better premises) and it has a number (majority) of layout plans (11/17) AND photos. So why the negative change of format this year?

[ELTEL]

I repeat once again Kenton you can only print what the exhibitor sends you What don't you understand?

[Kenton]

 

I repeat once again Kenton you can only print what the exhibitor sends you What don't you understand?

 I'm sorry! first we have an excuse that it is going to mean an increase in pages, then it is too expensive. All of which is clearly refuted.

 

Now we have the excuse that the exhibitors will not or refuse to send in track plans. Clearly you did not read the last post! For Wycrail 2011 and for many other show guides I have pointed out scaleforum and Abrail - Geoff pointed out Trainwest, and David Railex - I could go on to add others where when asked (perhaps forcefully) the majority of layout exhibitors have one at hand to submit for inclusion.

 

Perhaps it is not just enough to ask for the contribution of this basic information perhaps it takes something like a forfeit of travel expenses or similar stick to make layout exhibitors make this standard. But not needed as it appears that many show brochure editors seem to be able to do this without being pushy.

 

My criticism as I said before is not of the small show which is just pleased to get anyone offering to exhibit (though I have seen track plans on sheets of A4 - nothing fancy or glossy) it is with a aspiring show like Wycrail or the really star shows.

 

The only lack of understanding I have is why Wycrail got it close to right in 2011 and not anywhere close in 2013. I can't seem to find my 2012 show guide.

[andyram]

I wonder how many of those who are arguing for and against track plans in show guides have organised an exhibition???

   I'm sorry! first we have an excuse that it is going to mean an increase in pages, then it is too expensive. All of which is clearly refuted.

Now we have the excuse that the exhibitors will not or refuse to send in track plans. Clearly you did not read the last post! For Wycrail 2011 and for many other show guides I have pointed out scaleforum and Abrail - Geoff pointed out Trainwest, and David Railex - I could go on to add others where when asked (perhaps forcefully) the majority of layout exhibitors have one at hand to submit for inclusion.

Perhaps it is not just enough to ask for the contribution of this basic information perhaps it takes something like a forfeit of travel expenses or similar stick to make layout exhibitors make this standard. But not needed as it appears that many show brochure editors seem to be able to do this without being pushy.

My criticism as I said before is not of the small show which is just pleased to get anyone offering to exhibit (though I have seen track plans on sheets of A4 - nothing fancy or glossy) it is with a aspiring show like Wycrail or the really star shows.

The only lack of understanding I have is why Wycrail got it close to right in 2011 and not anywhere close in 2013. I can't seem to find my 2012 show guide.

Have you organised a show???

[Kenton]

 

Have you organised a show???

No. and I do not see the relevance of that remark. It would be more sensible to ask have I produced a show guide? I haven't produced a model railway show guide but have produced an exhibition guide (not the same of course is it).

 

There are members who have posted on this topic who have produced show guides and have managed shows. They clearly seem able to get track plans into show guides and even manage to profit from it.

 

At the moment all I see are feeble excuses for not doing it. Most of which fall down completely when I restate Wycrail 2011 managed to do it so why not Wycrail 2013? And so we do not just concentrate on Wycrail - If Epson and others do it why doesn't everyone?

[andyram]

 No. and I do not see the relevance of that remark. It would be more sensible to ask have I produced a show guide? I haven't produced a model railway show guide but have produced an exhibition guide (not the same of course is it).

 

There are members who have posted on this topic who have produced show guides and have managed shows. They clearly seem able to get track plans into show guides and even manage to profit from it.

 

At the moment all I see are feeble excuses for not doing it. Most of which fall down completely when I restate Wycrail 2011 managed to do it so why not Wycrail 2013? And so we do not just concentrate on Wycrail - If Epson and others do it why doesn't everyone?

 

So what was the exhibition guide for?

[cromptonnut]

I wonder how many of those who are arguing for and against track plans in show guides have organised an exhibition???

 

*raises hand*

 

The typical "single handed exhibition manager that does and organises everything then others turn up on the day to help" arrangement.

 

Brochure produced using Microsoft Publisher on my home computer, then duplicated with permission on work's photocopier, having gone in on a Saturday a couple of weeks before to print it off.  "Cover mode" on the copier meant it was collated, folded and stapled automatically and all I had to go was gather handfuls form the output tray before it stopped to say it was full.

[andyram]

*raises hand*

 

The typical "single handed exhibition manager that does and organises everything then others turn up on the day to help" arrangement.

 

Brochure produced using Microsoft Publisher on my home computer, then duplicated with permission on work's photocopier, having gone in on a Saturday a couple of weeks before to print it off.  "Cover mode" on the copier meant it was collated, folded and stapled automatically and all I had to go was gather handfuls form the output tray before it stopped to say it was full.

 

Same as me then!

[Clive Mortimore]

 

 

 

The problem is the hassle factor. It's bad enough trying to get all the other information from exhibitors without having to chase them all for proper track plans as well.

 

Geoff Endacott

 

As an exhibitor I try to send all the information requested. I do send a description of the layout and a layout plan with viewing side written on it.

 

Now when you get to the show the Tin Plate has set up before you and taken up half your space. But he is a mate of the chairman so I must have sent the wrong dimensions of the layout. At another show there was no room to stand behind the layout, "you said it was 16ft by 2ft". Yes it is but I said I needed a floor space of 18ft by 8ft so we had room for the stock table, operators, access and chairs to rest on between operating. "You want chairs and a table?"

 

"Your power point is over there." pointing to the other side of the hall "Have you got an extension lead, we ran out of them."

 

"Oh we can't have that. Two layouts with their fiddle yards together. That leaves a big area where the public cannot see trains. Can you turn your layout round?"

 

"You don't want to share a bed with Simon?" when the accommodation is being sorted. "You did not specify that you wanted single beds."

 

Once these little problems are sorted you open the welcome envelope and look at the show guide supplied, the three paragraphs have been edited to three non-sense sentences and the layout plan redrawn with all the features removed and the track plan made un-workable. It is at this point you notice the tea and dinner tickets have fallen on the floor and guess what? "Can we have four lunch tickets; I did say there were four operators."

 

While I always try to give exhibition managers all they request, and sometimes more there are times when it feels they have not read what they requested.

 

So please Kenton because the show guide to what sounds like a good show did not contain the track plans don't worry about it, exhibitors and exhibition managers can have more important things to worry about.

 

 

I had no problems at Trainwest the year Geoff invited me.

[Guest Celticwardog]

Wow another prickly thread.

 

In the opening gambit:

 

"As part of the HWDMRS Exhibition Committee, I have spent the weekend since the show, biding my time before responding to what some of my colleagues have taken as almost personal criticism" - Why? It was one persons view, backed up by some not others.

 

If you start a thread with such an inflammatory comment it's gonna go up in flames!

 

The person to which that response is aimed at clearly enjoyed the show and said it was his only criticism. This has come up as an irrelevant sideline in another thread, if you are going to present a show then people have the right to critique it....simple fact. You are never going to please everyone and if you go in trying to do that you are going to be dissapointed.

 

Last thing....text can be read in many ways as vocal inflection and body language is lost.

 

"Whats your problem?"

 

That could be someone trying to help or offering you out...you don't know. If you re-read some of the comments I have thing some people think it;s the latter when it could have well been the former.

[ELTEL]

 No. and I do not see the relevance of that remark. It would be more sensible to ask have I produced a show guide? I haven't produced a model railway show guide but have produced an exhibition guide (not the same of course is it).

There are members who have posted on this topic who have produced show guides and have managed shows. They clearly seem able to get track plans into show guides and even manage to profit from it.

At the moment all I see are feeble excuses for not doing it. Most of which fall down completely when I restate Wycrail 2011 managed to do it so why not Wycrail 2013? And so we do not just concentrate on Wycrail - If Epson and others do it why doesn't everyone?

I really can not be bothered to read any more of your drabble..

 

Perhaps you would kind enough to list the number of layouts you have built and exhibited and of course the number of exhibitions you have organised.

 

Perhaps I am guessing you are a armchair modeller, no problem with that providing you don't preach how it should be done without any knowledge or experience.

 

Eltel

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Just a thought.

 

Assuming some form of guide is to be provided, then couldn't the organisers (when inviting a layout) ask the owner/group to provide x words of copy and y number of images by z weeks before the show.

 

If material is provided all well and good. If not, then all that will appear in the guide will be the name of the layout, it's scale and the owners name.

 

I don't think consistency necessarily matters within the guide. Differing contributions by layout owners will reflect how important they want their modelling skills to be represented in the guide. Some may want to include a track plan, others a picture, others nothing at all.

[ELTEL]

Just a thought.

 

Assuming some form of guide is to be provided, then couldn't the organisers (when inviting a layout) ask the owner/group to provide x words of copy and y number of images by z weeks before the show.

 

If material is provided all well and good. If not, then all that will appear in the guide will be the name of the layout, it's scale and the owners name.

 

I don't think consistency necessarily matters within the guide. Differing contributions by layout owners will reflect how important they want their modelling skills to be represented in the guide. Some may want to include a track plan, others a picture, others nothing at all.

That's exactly what I said some posts back......

[cp409067]

.... Perhaps it is not just enough to ask for the contribution of this basic information perhaps it takes something like a forfeit of travel expenses or similar stick to make layout exhibitors make this standard.....

 

*

Speaking again as a seasoned exhibitor of a number of layouts I cannot let this remark pass without comment. This sort of thinking is both unrealistic and the fast route to killing model railway exhibitions in the UK.

 

I do not know what experience the above author has as an exhibitor, but I do not think it in any way reflects the reality of the role. Although exhibitors receive expenses for travel costs covering themselves, the layout, and assistant operators, they give a very great deal more for no return.

 

Consider a two day exhibition relatively close to home and a small layout exhibited by the owner assisted by a friend. Both these persons will voluntarily give up two days of their lives and in the case of the layout owner there will have been more time spent on preparing the layout, packing it into a car or van, and dealing with the relevant correspondence. This can be counted as a minimum of say five man days.

 

If the exhibition is some distance from home the time spent will be greater - say half a day travelling for each person on the Friday, and arrival at home on the Sunday evening at a late hour. The time now spent will be six or more days.

 

And there will be further sacrifices by the layout owner and his assistant if the exhibition is away from home. Quite rightly they will have been provided with hotel accommodation including breakfast at no cost to themselves, and there will have been lunch at the exhibition. However, it is very likely that the cost of dinner on the Friday and Saturday evenings will have been born by the exhibitors.

 

*****

 

The basic truth is that model railway exhibitions in the UK are run on the cheap because of the vast amount of time and good will freely given by (i) those who organise them, and (ii) those who exhibit layouts, put on demonstrations, etc.

 

 

CP

[DerekEm8]

Having been involved with the organisation of expoEM North for the last 23 years perhaps I could throw in my two pennerth.

 

I send a standard 'Layout Information' request sheet for layout owners to complete. The sheet. requests (amongst other relevant details) the layout max size including fiddle yards it also requests a track plan and a brief description for inclusion in the guide. We have only had one layout in all that time who (after a number of requests) did not supply these details - the guide consequently only had the the layout name, owners name and the words, 'No Details Supplied at time of publication'

 

The suggestion of adding photographs instead of track plans etc is an additional cost especially if in colour and who will tell a layout owner that his photos are not good enough for publication ? At least with track plans/ dimensions/ description ALL exhibitors are equal in the guide and not pre-judged by photo quality. 

For the last few years all correspondence has been via the internet so gentle reminders for slow responders are relatively easy. 

In summary all the guides I have done over those years have the Layout name,track plan, owners name. layout size, scale/gauge and a brief description. Also included in the guide is a plan of the hall, a list of the demonstrators and what they are demonstrationg, and a list (and addresses) of traders attending. 

 

Also to tell people that information on layouts is available on XXX website is a big no-no. We (on RMweb) are fortunate that we are regular computer users - have you looked round an exhibition lately at the average age of visitors ? - how many of those are web savvy ? (I can safely say that, as I am over the 3 score years and 10)

[Dagworth]

This is a forum of railway modellers, many of us have a topic (or more than one) dedicated to our layout/s.

How many of those topics - where we do have control over what is published about our creations* - have layout plans? Not many...

Personally I think I might make it a deliberate policy to never publish the trackplan of Ravensclyffe, if you manage to work it all out then good luck, but there is a siding that no-one can see so I doubt you'll get it right.
 

Layouts require different viewing access depending on whether they are viewed only from the front or from two or three sides.

Some of them are viewable from all four!

Andi

*as opposed to someone's edited version

[cromptonnut]

 

Also to tell people that information on layouts is available on XXX website is a big no-no. We (on RMweb) are fortunate that we are regular computer users - have you looked round an exhibition lately at the average age of visitors ? - how many of those are web savvy ? (I can safely say that, as I am over the 3 score years and 10)

 

That's the same excuse as to why so many "small traders" don't bother with websites or any other sort of useful contact information - and frankly it's nothing more than an excuse in this modern digital age.  It's quite easy to get free - or low cost - web hosting and there are tools that make writing your own website as simple as writing a letter on a computer if it's just a list of products available, a few images and contact details.   

 

Fair enough if the individual themselves doesn't have internet abilities but surely they must have a friend or family member - or even someone in their club - with the skills that would knock something up for the cost of a few pints?