Hornby Drummond 700

[cctransuk]

If you look at the Hornby Grange and the Castle I think you will find that they also have handrails that are horizontal so what is all the fuss about?

 

 

Not in the images of the Hornby Castle Class that Google throws up, they're not !!

 

Handrail knobs should be radial to the boiler - that's how they were fitted on the prototype.

 

Anything else looks ridiculous.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited November 6, 2015 by cctransuk

[melmerby]

6 months on and we are still discussing horizontal handrail knobs.

Is that the worst thing wrong with this relatively cheap model?

From distance the incorrect angle is not obvious, only when you look close does it reveal itself.

 

IMHO it is a very good model with (as always) some inaccuracies but perfectly acceptable.

If you don't like what Hornby have done build your own and see whether you can get close to the quality at the price.

I guess most of us couldn't.

 

Keith

[Bulwell Hall]

Not in the images of the Hornby Castle Class that Google throws up, they're not !!

 

Handrail knobs should be radial to the boiler - that's how they were fitted on the prototype.

 

Anything else lookes ridiculous.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Well they are on both my Kidwelly Castle and my Grange - can't remember which Grange it was originally as I have renumbered it!  And I am well aware that they should be radial to the boiler but I guess it's one of the compromises that we have to accept.

[Ian J.]

...but I guess it's one of the compromises that we have to accept.

 

Why should we have to accept it? We can choose not to purchase, but I despair when others here seem to think that it's okay for manufacturers to produce any model to a sub standard representation of the prototype when with modern design and production it is possible to get it right.

 

Now of course, in this case Hornby may be designing down to a price (like they did with the 4VEP). With the opinions I've noted on this thread it appears they (and other manufacturers doing similar compromises) are getting away with it. Most of 'us' seem to be all too happy to accept such visible compromises to get a quid or two off the price of a model, and when someone raises a hand to object are then told off with the comment that the gauge isn't right anyway so what's the problem?

 

Well, I may not have the pulse of the forum, but for me the handrails are a problem totally separate from the gauge issue. It's possible to get such detail things correct and it has nothing to do with the gauge and all to do with not bothering with getting the design and manufacturing process sorted so that something like this looks right. Even at a distance, I can see that something's wrong with the handrails, even if it's not explicitly obvious why until closer inspection.

 

So, I for one am speaking up and saying I'm not happy with it. If I ever buy a Hornby 700, it's something that I will need to see can be corrected effectively before I purchase one. Fortunately, as I'm completely skint at the moment, it's a first world dilemma I can avoid thinking about for the time being.

[Ian Hargrave]

May God in his infinite mercy help the rest of us.

[Nile]

Oh no, Knobgate returns ! 

[barrymx5]

Time to move on!

[Market65]

Move down the bus, please!

[Hilux5972]

It's almost certainly a tooling limitation. Either the casting of the boiler with the holes horizontal or the machine that fits the handrail knobs only working in the horizontal. So, neither a mistake nor a choice. It's a very minor point - there are very few handrail knobs (from memory about 3 either side) so it hardly notices. If it could be overcome, the cost of retooling would most probably make it uneconomic to do so. (CJL)

I am quoting Chris here, someone far more knowledgeable than most on here I would say, and someone who's opinion I would respect far more too. He has been in the business for almost 50 years, so he would be one to listen to. If he says it is a tooling limitation, then given his history with models, he would be right. Can we just let this go now? It's getting very repetitive and boring.

[Dunsignalling]

I am quoting Chris here, someone far more knowledgeable than most on here I would say, and someone who's opinion I would respect far more too. He has been in the business for almost 50 years, so he would be one to listen to. If he says it is a tooling limitation, then given his history with models, he would be right. Can we just let this go now? It's getting very repetitive and boring.

To be fair, it's not just Hornby that do this. The Bachmann 2251 and Ivatt 2-6-2T both have this feature (as does the N, but it is correct for that loco), these being my only Bachmann locos immediately to hand.

 

Nobody (me Included) seems to have noticed it until the Hornby J15 and 700 came along, which tends to bear out my earlier thought that it only becomes really obtrusive when applied to small diameter parallel boilers.

 

With all due deference to CJL's long experience, it doesn't seem to have represented a tooling limitation for other producers, past or present. The boiler handrail knobs on my old Dapol 14xx and even older Mainline (bodied) BR 4MT 4-6-0 are correctly angled just as they are on my new DJM-Kernow O2s.

 

Do Hornby and Bachmann, perhaps, use factories with less capable machinery or is it just a bad design habit in which they have previously not been found out?

 

It's not correct; my older locos provide evidence that it is avoidable and, no, I don't think we should keep quiet about models with obvious shortcomings. 

 

John

Edited November 7, 2015 by Dunsignalling

[Butler Henderson]

Were these right hand drive locos?

[Nile]

No, left.

[dibber25]

With all due deference to CJL's long experience, it doesn't seem to have represented a tooling limitation for other producers, past or present. The boiler handrail knobs on my old Dapol 14xx and even older Mainline (bodied) BR 4MT 4-6-0 are correctly angled just as they are on my new DJM-Kernow O2s.

 

 

 

With all due deference to CJL's long experience, it doesn't seem to have represented a tooling limitation for other producers, past or present. The boiler handrail knobs on my old Dapol 14xx and even older Mainline (bodied) BR 4MT 4-6-0 are correctly angled just as they are on my new DJM-Kernow O2s.

 

John

 

 

I'm quite prepared to accept that I may be wrong but the difference between the 'J15' and '700' and the other models that are mentioned is that the J15 and 700 have cast alloy boilers, not plastic. The holes may have to be drilled - it may be that the drilling machine only works in the horizontal plane. I don't know. I'm just suggesting that it is highly likely that there is a practical limitation which has caused them to be done this way. It may also relate to whether the handrail knobs on these models are inserted by machine or by hand. In any event it is such a minor point that it makes little difference. Having RTR models of these classes is great despite some minor imperfections. But then, I grew up in the era of moulded-on handrails and the knobs (well 'webs') on them were always horizontal! (CJL)

[Fenway Park]

Could someone confirm the Nine Ems allocation worked local freights to Wimbledon Raynes Park Hampton Court etc? Did they venture towards West Croydon on the Wimbledon to WC Line?

 

The O2 allocation at Feltham and the solo one at Nine Elms is intriguing given their haulage capacity. Any ideas as to where they worked.  

 

Thanks

[N15class]

With all due deference to CJL's long experience, it doesn't seem to have represented a tooling limitation for other producers, past or present. The boiler handrail knobs on my old Dapol 14xx and even older Mainline (bodied) BR 4MT 4-6-0 are correctly angled just as they are on my new DJM-Kernow O2s.

 

 

 

I'm quite prepared to accept that I may be wrong but the difference between the 'J15' and '700' and the other models that are mentioned is that the J15 and 700 have cast alloy boilers, not plastic. The holes may have to be drilled - it may be that the drilling machine only works in the horizontal plane. I don't know. I'm just suggesting that it is highly likely that there is a practical limitation which has caused them to be done this way. It may also relate to whether the handrail knobs on these models are inserted by machine or by hand. In any event it is such a minor point that it makes little difference. Having RTR models of these classes is great despite some minor imperfections. But then, I grew up in the era of moulded-on handrails and the knobs (well 'webs') on them were always horizontal! (CJL)

The models I make with cast, resin, brass or plastic boilers are all drilled ar the right angle. It is fault that is unnecessary.

[JSpencer]

The models I make with cast, resin, brass or plastic boilers are all drilled ar the right angle. It is fault that is unnecessary.

I suspect that the holes for the hand rail knobs are cast at the same as the boiler part itself. The mould line is most likely at the top and bottom so in order for the mould to open, any deep holes must be perpendicular to that.

 

To make it perpendicular to the surface of the boiler it self, either split the mould into additional parts, have pins which retract prior to releasing or some drills the things with a jig. All of which adds a lot of additional complication, time and effort.

 

I accept the compromise.....

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

There is a simple way around it though, if it is the boiler shell casting technique forcing the hole alignment. Anyone with a Bachmann class 20 can quickly confirm that the bonnet hand rail knobs are cranked. The visible stanchion is at an angle to the plug in base. Application of this principle would enable non-radial holes to have radial stanchions.

 

I have to admit that despite wanting things to be right, the J15s handrails don't leap out and poke me in the eye. The generally lovely appearance and performance carries my eye past this minor imperfection. And I could do something about it if I ever really wanted to. More important to me was sorting out the excessive loco to tender distance, something which once corrected instantly improves the ensemble.

[Ian J.]

I'm quite prepared to accept that I may be wrong but the difference between the 'J15' and '700' and the other models that are mentioned is that the J15 and 700 have cast alloy boilers, not plastic. The holes may have to be drilled - it may be that the drilling machine only works in the horizontal plane. I don't know. I'm just suggesting that it is highly likely that there is a practical limitation which has caused them to be done this way. It may also relate to whether the handrail knobs on these models are inserted by machine or by hand. In any event it is such a minor point that it makes little difference. Having RTR models of these classes is great despite some minor imperfections. But then, I grew up in the era of moulded-on handrails and the knobs (well 'webs') on them were always horizontal! (CJL)

 

I grew up with the moulded-on stuff as well. But I accept that such techniques are the part of the past. We've moved into a more advanced era with far better production techniques which should allow for the holes in the boiler to be correct (either by moulding or drilling), and so I'm not prepared to accept these kinds of compromises just because it's 'better' than what was produced 40 years ago.

[exet1095]

I grew up with the moulded-on stuff as well. But I accept that such techniques are the part of the past. We've moved into a more advanced era with far better production techniques which should allow for the holes in the boiler to be correct (either by moulding or drilling), and so I'm not prepared to accept these kinds of compromises just because it's 'better' than what was produced 40 years ago.

Great, but can you spare us having to read about it please. I don't think I'm alone I looking at this thread for new and interesting things, rather than a rehearsal of what leaves people dissatisfied. Don't buy the model, or buy it and add your own handrail knobs, lovingly made in your sophisticated workshop or whatever, and then show us the result. Carping on months later after the initial issue was flagged up is tedious and unproductive.

[Captain Kernow]

Out of interest, has anyone approached Hornby themselves about the handrailknob problem?

[cctransuk]

Great, but can you spare us having to read about it please. I don't think I'm alone I looking at this thread for new and interesting things, rather than a rehearsal of what leaves people dissatisfied. Don't buy the model, or buy it and add your own handrail knobs, lovingly made in your sophisticated workshop or whatever, and then show us the result. Carping on months later after the initial issue was flagged up is tedious and unproductive.

 

The decision whether to read a post rests with the reader (or non-reader).

 

Just because you are bored with the discussion does not mean that everyone else is similarly afflicted.

 

The first few words will indicate that a post is potentially boring for you - simply cease reading and move on !!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[PaulRhB]

Out of interest, has anyone approached Hornby themselves about the handrailknob problem?

Or a doctor . . . sorry CK couldn't resist messing with it

Considering how long we waited for a RTR Black motor I'd have happily adjusted mine if I could see it from a foot away. So far it's not stood out at all and it's been running beautifully too.

[Ian J.]

Great, but can you spare us having to read about it please. I don't think I'm alone I looking at this thread for new and interesting things, rather than a rehearsal of what leaves people dissatisfied. Don't buy the model, or buy it and add your own handrail knobs, lovingly made in your sophisticated workshop or whatever, and then show us the result. Carping on months later after the initial issue was flagged up is tedious and unproductive.

 

OK, I'll stay away and not darken your door again.

[No Decorum]

IMH (and boring) O.

 

Did the horizontal knobs put me off buying one? No.

 

Would they put me off buying another? Probably.

 

Would they disqualify it from being model of the year? Yes.

[lofty1966]

OK, I'll stay away and not darken your door again.

Promise ?

Just kidding !