Bachmann E4

[Robin Brasher]

Thank you. I had heard something about an eight week time limit. I don't think there have been any supply problems with this model.

[stephennicholson]

The 15% maximum discount thing applies to ALL retailers. Traditionally because Hattons offered grater discounts not only is this situation more noticeable in price terms, but it makes Bachmann nervous that Hattons might be tempted to breech the conditions Bachmann have stipulated MUST be followed if retailers wish to continue to receive new releases with 8 weeks of them arriving at Bachmann UKs HQ.

 

I got mine for £80 from a well known supplier as a pre-order, ironically not known for big discounts normally. So I dont know if they decided to honour the order price or it was a mistake as it breaches the discount rule. 

 

With Hattons, I have seen my pre-order price for a class 43 warship dramatically increase. Whilst disappointing, I dont feel indignant, because ultimately the future range and quality of models available to us depends on those involved in their manufacture and supply make a profit. 

[Andy Hayter]

The prices seem to be the same every where so I'm not sure Bachmann are putting more pressure on Hattons over any other retailer.

 

That depends on your point of view.  Hattons have tried hard on many occasions in the past to honour pre-order prices.  Now with prices having risen dramatically, they have said to their pre-order customers for the E4 that they could not honour the pre-order price.

 

This may be because they would be selling at a loss or it may be because their pre-order price would be very much below the 15% permitted discount.  Or of course both.

[melmerby]

The prices seem to be the same every where so I'm not sure Bachmann are putting more pressure on Hattons over any other retailer.

£93.46 down to £85.06 seems to be the range of the discounters. That's from 15% - 22% (I paid £90 plus my 5% loyalty card discount)

 

Keith

[amdaley]

That depends on your point of view.  Hattons have tried hard on many occasions in the past to honour pre-order prices.  Now with prices having risen dramatically, they have said to their pre-order customers for the E4 that they could not honour the pre-order price.

 

This may be because they would be selling at a loss or it may be because their pre-order price would be very much below the 15% permitted discount.  Or of course both.

 

I remember that the same thing happened a couple of months ago on another Bachmann product I had ordered from Hattons.

Hattons sent me an email saying they couldn't honor the price I had ordered the items at.

They were just some small accessories.

I remember thinking it strange at the time because I has not had that from Hattons on previous occasions.

[pete_mcfarlane]

Hi

I have taken the bodyshell apart, not too difficult, only the wire cab handrails that are a pig to get back in the correct place in the holes in the cast metal footplate. If you do want to look yourself, may I suggest taking both the front and rear mouldings off together and then any wire, tubes etc plugging into the front of the cab can be put back in easily when re-assembling. Two screws at the rear for the cab moulding, one at the front under the saddle and four up in the side tanks. Then the whole lot lifts off very easily and then the cab slots out of the tank/boiler/smokebox moulding.

If the tanks can be separated from the footplate, then I wonder if an E4X is a possibility. IIRC these had a larger boiler and the tanks set further out to compensate. 

[Robin Brasher]

LBSC E4 with goods train made up of local wagons from Ballards of Tunbridge Wells & Hythe (Kent) Models. Hornby LBSCR brake van at the rear. Train ran well with no derailments on both the Corfe Viaduct layout with radius 2 points & radius 3 curves and the Purbeck Model Railway Group layout with three foot radius curves & Peco large radius points.

[SDJR7F88]

Following my review of the Bachmann Class E4 in stunning LBSC Umber Livery, here's a quick running session featuring her hauling a non-prototypical, but still very smart looking rake, consisting of two Hornby Super Detail LNER Teaks and a Extra Long CCT Van. 
Though Non-Prototypical, I felt the beautiful Teak Finish and White Roofs of the LNER Gresley Teaks, made a good match with the stunning LB&SC Umber Livery. 
As can be seen she is a superb performer, with smooth and quite running, and having no issues around bends or over point work. An excellent model indeed! 

Hope you enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0M6Lxj7pww

[JSpencer]

I have stripped one of my 3 down ready for sound conversion. Boy there ain,t much space anywhere. Will post pics when I,m done.

[DoverPriory]

Having problems with two E4's (both sound chip fitted). They stall going through (Peco Setrack) points in a coach park/marshaling yard at speeds < 6/28 which they will have to do. I can't fathom why they will go through 'no probs' in one direction but splutter/stall going in the opposite direction.

So far I have checked:

1. The pickups make contact with all 6 wheels ( back 2 backs OK) when wheels are moved from side to side.

2.Wheel rims and insides are clean (used surgical spirit on a Q tip).

3. Track is clean and level (tested with spirit level)

I have found these locos (both) very intolerant of minor track imperfections but have leveled track where there are issues.

Before I give up and consign them back to their boxes and the store cupboard does anybody have any ideas please.

Have brought back the class 25's (not PC on a southern-themed layout) but hell they do a good job and sound good to.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Having problems with two E4's (both sound chip fitted). They stall going through (Peco Setrack) points in a coach park/marshaling yard at speeds < 6/28 which they will have to do. I can't fathom why they will go through 'no probs' in one direction but splutter/stall going in the opposite direction...

 

 

Have brought back the class 25's  but hell they do a good job and sound good to.

 

The different performance by direction is the result of many small variations in the assembly of parts that constitute the pick up path. These 'stack up' differently with the direction of rotation of the drive line. What you need is more 'looseness' in the running gear so that most wheels are on the rail at all times; something the class 25 with two four wheel trucks -  with considerable freedom of movement between them - achieves easily, it will have six of eight always on the rail: that's three out of four on each bogie.

 

Unfortunately a rigid chassis steamer with pick up on the driven wheels only is also often only able to keep three wheels on the rail, and if the single wheel in contact on one side happens to be on the plastic crossing, it stalls. (Earlier Bachmann six coupled tank loco products (57xx, Jinty, 56xx, class 08) are much superior, having a sprung centre axle in the driven wheelbase; but this feature never got the press it deserved and has been dropped.

 

Things to try.

Remove the wheel from the trailing truck and assess. (If the spring is over strong it may be lifting the back of the loco. if performance improves with the wheelset out, then dismantle plunger and try without spring.)

Undo keeper plate screws, loosen keeper plate, restore screws letting them draw the keeper plate 'home' but don't do up tight, perhaps a half turn of slack, and assess. Quite often this makes a surprising difference by allowing the axles to flop around a little vertically.

 

I guess you know that you are expecting a lot of performance from set track. Live crossing points haven't been de rigeur on all fine scale layouts, for all my lifetime and beyond for nothing - the 2' rad live crossing point costs little extra in space on the layout.

[ChrisG]

My Bachmann E4 arrived as a poor runner. It was in fact the second, the first having been returned from whence it came for being completely non-running, even when power was applied to the pick ups. I asked the retailer for a repair but received a replacement, which exhibited the same problem. As I gather is usual with Bachmann, the pickups were not making contact with all the wheels at all times, especially when the wheels were moved from side to side.

 

However, more seriously, what appears to be a generic fault is as follows:-

 

The strip of plastic insulation on the r.h. side busbar interferes with the conductivity of the rivets which secure the pick ups to the bus bar. My second E4 was in fact running on 3 pickups on one side and only one on the other!  I ripped out the insulation, soldered the rivets to the bus bar and I now have a perfectly-running loco. I reinsulated with thin narrow masking tape over the bus bar. 

 

p.s. if you are removing the pick up strip, the sand box pipes are a b nuisance, as are the guard irons at either end of the loco. 

 

Am I right that Bachmann engineer their products for appearance rather than performance?

 

All that said - it is now running nicely on DCC and handles all my challenging track work including small radius curves.

 

Chris

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...Am I right that Bachmann engineer their products for appearance rather than performance?...

Generally i would say the reverse, and somewhat emphatically. Their introduction to the UK market of the centre motor flywheel drive to both bogies first seen circa 1991 in their 'Peak' and standard on all their twin bogie locos is a simple and robust performer that just goes on forever; and take a look at the excellent drives in the WD 2-8-0 and 9F, both the best things available in OO steam mechanisms at time of launch, and still as good as any competitor offers. Good features like sprung driven axles, compact, concealed and reliable wiper pick ups, soldered wire connections between wipers and motor, long lived motors in sturdy mounts, low wear drive trains.

 

There has emerged a tendency to 'fiddle' with some of these proven features. Dropping simple wheelback wipers and fitting split axle collection on some recent twin bogie types, the elimination of a sprung driven axle on the more recent steam model introductions, clip on rather than all soldered connections. There's likely justification in 'cost containment' figuring in this: personally I would pay the relatively small extra to retain the 'right stuff'.

 

I have posted this before and will doubtless again: they are following the market's desires. A flaw in appearance - see the moodlified Hall - creates howls of protest - but the loss of really good features from their steam mechanisms - such as a sprung driven axle - not a whisper. This is 'the UK customer' in action; it would appear most value appearance far and away over any aspect of mechanical performance.

[DoverPriory]

Thanks 34C and Chris G for taking the trouble to give me help with my E4 problem. Once I have finished the domestic chores I've been allotted (decorating and putting a sound system into the conservatory) I shall set about the E4s. Getting the running gear 'looser' sounds good and I will have a go at that first. 

Interesting that others have had problems with E4s  as well.

Thanks guys.

[ChrisG]

I'll admit to not having much experience of Bachmann (until recently all my locos have been handbuilt kits), but that which I have had has been bad, at least from an operating perspective. They look lovely as they come out of the box, but the detail is fragile, and the steps to go through to get to any kind of maintenance (such as cleaning the pickups) are fraught with difficulty. My 08 shunter for example required removal of sand boxes, which appeared to be glued in place - with the result that the mountings were broken in the act of removal.

 

Engineering for performance in my book includes the need to make routine maintenance easy.  My experience has been on small steam and diesel shunter prototypes and I am happy to accept that the diesels and bigger steam locos are a difficult kettle of fish. But I stand by my statement about the E4, that it's pickups are inadequately engineered. I had two examples before throwing my warranty out of the window and deciding to build my own pickups. I have done the same with my 08 shunter. 

 

Meanwhile the kitbuilt locos are fully detailed but completely robust, perform like a dream and have easy access to the mechanism for maintenance.

 

Chris

 

 

Generally i would say the reverse, and somewhat emphatically. Their introduction to the UK market of the centre motor flywheel drive to both bogies first seen circa 1991 in their 'Peak' and standard on all their twin bogie locos is a simple and robust performer that just goes on forever; and take a look at the excellent drives in the WD 2-8-0 and 9F, both the best things available in OO steam mechanisms at time of launch, and still as good as any competitor offers. Good features like sprung driven axles, compact, concealed and reliable wiper pick ups, soldered wire connections between wipers and motor, long lived motors in sturdy mounts, low wear drive trains.

 

There has emerged a tendency to 'fiddle' with some of these proven features. Dropping simple wheelback wipers and fitting split axle collection on some recent twin bogie types, the elimination of a sprung driven axle on the more recent steam model introductions, clip on rather than all soldered connections. There's likely justification in 'cost containment' figuring in this: personally I would pay the relatively small extra to retain the 'right stuff'.

 

I have posted this before and will doubtless again: they are following the market's desires. A flaw in appearance - see the moodlified Hall - creates howls of protest - but the loss of really good features from their steam mechanisms - such as a sprung driven axle - not a whisper. This is 'the UK customer' in action; it would appear most value appearance far and away over any aspect of mechanical performance.

[ChrisG]

Thanks 34C and Chris G for taking the trouble to give me help with my E4 problem. Once I have finished the domestic chores I've been allotted (decorating and putting a sound system into the conservatory) I shall set about the E4s. Getting the running gear 'looser' sounds good and I will have a go at that first. 

Interesting that others have had problems with E4s  as well.

Thanks guys.

 

Part of the problem is surely that the mechanism is already too loose? The amount of sideplay on all the axles contributes to the loss of pick-up and the slop on the connecting rods causes a strange "surging" movement from the loco when running above a certain speed.

 

Chris

[JSpencer]

Generally, pick up issues are not that difficult to sort out, but do occur often on small locos I have had from them.

 

Hornby are easier to re-adjust, you remove a keeper plate. Sometimes Bachmann are easy to readjust, sometimes harder, it depends on the adjustment. Agree that if you need to stripe the chassis down for an adjustment, if is a pain.

 

Agree that dropping sprung axles was a bad idea too.

 

For kit locos, easy maintenance is in the eye of the builder. I for one aim for this, but I have seen kits built whereby maintenance is ignoreded.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Part of the problem is surely that the mechanism is already too loose? The amount of sideplay on all the axles contributes to the loss of pick-up and the slop on the connecting rods causes a strange "surging" movement from the loco when running above a certain speed...

Often too loose in some respects, (lateral, longitudinal) too rigid in the vertical plane.

 

Straight up, OO RTR is compromised by the need to negotiate tiny radius curves in set track systems that still dominate the customer base for the product.

 

I wouldn't claim for a moment that RTR steam mechanisms match what can readily be achieved with a hand built mechanism, especially when constructed to tolerances for a more generous minimum radius requirement. But once this is recognised it is usually possible to take the cheap RTR mechanism and with some small modification - and often limiting lateral freedom and introducing a little more vertical freedom is all it takes - to get a very satisfactory running result. I am in for 'the least sweat to get to this point' methodology, because for me a model railway is for operating above any other consideration.

 

The centre motor twin bogie mechanisms: these will typically run as well as anything hand built. Relatively little simple adjustment is required to deliver the last ounce from these. Beating this would be both expensive and demanding in my opinion.

[ChrisG]

Often too loose in some respects, (lateral, longitudinal) too rigid in the vertical plane.

 

Straight up, OO RTR is compromised by the need to negotiate tiny radius curves in set track systems that still dominate the customer base for the product.

 

I wouldn't claim for a moment that RTR steam mechanisms match what can readily be achieved with a hand built mechanism, especially when constructed to tolerances for a more generous minimum radius requirement. But once this is recognised it is usually possible to take the cheap RTR mechanism and with some small modification - and often limiting lateral freedom and introducing a little more vertical freedom is all it takes - to get a very satisfactory running result. I am in for 'the least sweat to get to this point' methodology, because for me a model railway is for operating above any other consideration.

 

The centre motor twin bogie mechanisms: these will typically run as well as anything hand built. Relatively little simple adjustment is required to deliver the last ounce from these. Beating this would be both expensive and demanding in my opinion.

 

All good points, and well made. I must admit in my ponderings over the E4 I failed to notice the fundamental difference with the 08, which is of course the vertical movement (sprung) of the middle axle. If that has had to be sacrificed on the alter of low prices, in my view that is a shame, because, like a fellow commentator, operation is the name of the game for me. I suppose every element adds cost to the model but it doesn't strike me that a small metal disc with a peg and a spring should make THAT much difference, and I would definitely value it more highly than some of the fine detail which makes the model look perfect on the outside.  Bogie diesel/electric locos are of course an entirely different kettle of fish....

[PenrithBeacon]

Concerning the price and the lack of a sprung centre axle.

 

Hattons are showing this model as £96.46 which is a reasonable enough price but I do wonder just how much a sprung centre axle would cost. The components are standard Bachmann items, already in production for other models: assembling the sprung centre axle can only take about 30secs at most and it's not as though the other RTR manufacturers are competing. This is a niche model if ever there was one.

 

Does the 'new' Ivatt tank at £106.21 have a sprung centre axle?

 

Regards

Edited June 14, 2015 by PenrithBeacon

[Andy Hayter]

If you can install sprung centre drivers at a rate of 120 per hour for 8 hours a day, every day, I suggest you have just got yourself a job - in China.

[SRman]

I had a quick look under my BR version to see what might be done. The centre axle is also the driven one, so that's not really practical to spring. However, the balance point for the weight distribution is behind the centre axle, meaning that it may be practical to spring the leading axle instead, or at least, to add a little extra vertical float to it. At this stage, that is only my musings as I haven't tried anything yet.

[Dunsignalling]

Concerning the price and the lack of a sprung centre axle.

 

Hattons are showing this model as £96.46 which is a reasonable enough price but I do wonder just how much a sprung centre axle would cost. The components are standard Bachmann items, already in production for other models: assembling the sprung centre axle can only take about 30secs at most and it's not as though the other RTR manufacturers are competing. This is a niche model if ever there was one.

 

Does the 'new' Ivatt tank at £106.21 have a sprung centre axle?

 

Regards

Sprung centre driving axles on Bachmann locos unfortunately seem to have become a thing of the past long before the release of the E4.

 

My 4F, 3F, 1F and 64xx certainly don't have them and I therefore don't expect the revised Ivatt tank will, either.

 

John

Edited June 15, 2015 by Dunsignalling

[PenrithBeacon]

If you can install sprung centre drivers at a rate of 120 per hour for 8 hours a day, every day, I suggest you have just got yourself a job - in China.

That is what production line workers have to do. Boring repetitive work where the slightest slip in concentration is disastrous. Illustrates the virtues of automation.

 

Regards

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

If you can install sprung centre drivers at a rate of 120 per hour for 8 hours a day, every day, I suggest you have just got yourself a job - in China.

I'd be confident of the assembly operatives far exceeding that figure! My estimate would be about 7 seconds incremental to the mechanism assembly if the workstation is well laid out. But whatever, I'd trade off as much of the cab interior detail as necessary - barely visible on a moving loco - for this useful feature. Clearly, what the UK market generally wants is cab interior detail however, and Bachmann have noticeably moved in that direction while dropping good mechanism features.