Washout at Dawlish

[woodenhead]

Plymouth to Exeter early 1960s cab view

 

[Re6/6]

Fascinating to see all the old infrastructure and trackwork again. Great memories!

Edited July 25, 2023 by Re6/6

[The Stationmaster]

Lovely stuff although it's a shame places were missed out  (but it would have been a lot longer if they'd been inc;luded and have needed a lot more film of course).  Pity about the poor lighting but finding decent fast film at an affordable price back then was not in everyone's grasp.   Many thanks for the link.

[brushman47544]

The news has images from Dawlish on the impact of Storm Babet on the town, with pictures of "four foot high" sea foam "flooding the town". Presumably the Sea Wall and railway, after all the money spent, have survived unscathed?

[IWCR]

Trains  in  Cornwall  total  shambles  yesterday  due  to  Dawlish,  as  far  as  I  know  track  etc  still  ok  but  many  trains  cancelled  and / or  long  delays.  Waited  an  hour  +  at  Par  for  a  westbound  train,  passengers  eastbound  were  stood  a  lot  longer  when  a  Paddington  train  terminated  there  and  turfed  everyone  out,  station  staff  absent  (or  hiding)  toilets  locked  up.  Several  people  tried  using  the  help  point  which  seemed  to  link  with  a  chinese  call  centre  who  knew  nothing.  2  trains  u/s  with  sea  water  damage. 

Today  most;ly  OK  but  some  cancelled  due  to  the  sets  lost.

How  often  does  this  happen?,  just  about  every  passenger  will  qualify  for  full  refunds,  many  of  these  being  long  diistance  hence  losses  must  be  very  high..

More  than  a  few  days  a  year  like  this  would  make  reopening  the. Tavistock  route  more  attractive,  not  as  a  Dawlish  Relacement,  but  as  an  alternaative  when  times  are  difficult  and  some  stock .is  to  vunerable.

 

Pete

[Rivercider]

5 minutes ago, IWCR said:

Trains  in  Cornwall  total  shambles  yesterday  due  to  Dawlish,  as  far  as  I  know  track  etc  still  ok  but  many  trains  cancelled  and / or  long  delays.  Waited  an  hour  +  at  Par  for  a  westbound  train,  passengers  eastbound  were  stood  a  lot  longer  when  a  Paddington  train  terminated  there  and  turfed  everyone  out,  station  staff  absent  (or  hiding)  toilets  locked  up.  Several  people  tried  using  the  help  point  which  seemed  to  link  with  a  chinese  call  centre  who  knew  nothing.  2  trains  u/s  with  sea  water  damage. 

Today  most;ly  OK  but  some  cancelled  due  to  the  sets  lost.

How  often  does  this  happen?,  just  about  every  passenger  will  qualify  for  full  refunds,  many  of  these  being  long  diistance  hence  losses  must  be  very  high..

More  than  a  few  days  a  year  like  this  would  make  reopening  the. Tavistock  route  more  attractive,  not  as  a  Dawlish  Relacement,  but  as  an  alternaative  when  times  are  difficult  and  some  stock .is  to  vunerable.

 

Pete

I don't know how often there is a problem at Dawlish, but there was also single line working on Tuesday (17th).

I went down to Newton Abbot for the day (for an excellent evening talk organised by Friends of the Railway Studies Collection in Newton Abbot Library).

The GWR website had warned of possible disruption from 19.30 and although my return train departed Newton Abbot

on time at 21,25 we were held outside Teignmouth as single line working had been introduced over the up line along the sea wall.

After some 20 minutes delay we proceeded on and at Dawlish there was a failed 5-car 800/802 set lights out in the down platform,

 

cheers

[Gwiwer]

There were multiple problems at the hands of Storm Babet across two days.
 

A track circuit failure at Teignmouth (down) required trains to be run on the Reversible (“Up”) line. 
 

Two IET trains became disabled by sea-water ingress (“wave-strike”) on Tuesday eith the set at Dawlish not recovered until 02.00 Wednesday. 
 

One unit was abandoned as non-moveable at Newton Abbot reducing platforms there from three to two and meaning connections / “overtake” moves could not happen 

 

More sets were disabled by wave strikes yesterday. 
 

At one point a rescue unit sent to a failure at Teignmouth itself also failed which blocked both lines for some time. 
 

Another IET lost power on the Up at Dawlish but managed to limp into Exeter before sitting right down. Exeter St Davids at one time held four defective trains leaving only one platform for all other services. With trains unable to pass along the sea wall and nowhere for them to go as Exeter and Newton Abbot were full there were some horrendous delays at Dawlish Warren and at signals. 
 

It is rare for such widespread disruption to occur. The storm arrived from the south east which is unusual and which blows straight at the sea wall. The rebuilt wall and railway stood up to it well but the massive seas broke well above the rail line and came down onto train roofs. 
 

There will very likely be some head-scratching among Hitachi staff who claim their trains were built to be “Dawlish-proof”.  They have proven not to be. Castle class HST sets, several DMU types and a steam train all got through (some after lengthy delays) but the IETs have failed the resilience test majorly. XC of course cancelled everything in the south-west with trains turned back ag Bristol to ease the pressure on Exeter

[Ramblin Rich]

There's videos of some pretty monstrous waves over the sea wall north of Dawlish yesterday, with splashes going higher than the houses in Sea Lawn Terrace (the ones that nearly got washed away in 2014). Facebook link

https://fb.watch/nNd1VENQiy/

It does look like single line working allowed services to get through, but it's ridiculous that new trains can't be relied on to survive a wetting! It does look like the new defences are only part of the picture 🙄

Unfortunately the local services Exeter to Paignton were scratched so we had to collect daughter from school in Torquay by road. Ironically, the good ol' 150s probably would have managed 🤪

... and Royal Scot did!

 

Edited October 19, 2023 by Ramblin Rich

[Pete Haitch]

Oral Answers to Questions - Transport

 

Chris Grayling
I want to reiterate that this is an absolutely crucial project for our railways. Network Rail is currently doing preparatory work for the very necessary improvements at Dawlish. I have given an absolute commitment that those works will go ahead. I regard this project, to make sure a proper resilient railway for the future is delivered to the south-west, as the most important infrastructure project in the country. It is one thing having a railway that is not quite up to date; it is quite another having a railway that gets cut off. We will not let that happen.

Hansard 24/05/2018

 

IIRC, at one stage Canute Grayling also promised a second route from Exeter to Plymouth (Okehampton - Tavistock) - although it appeared to become watered-down to more of an aspiration rather than a promise.

 

Speaking at Exeter St David station on November 29, after the publication of Mr Grayling’s Department of Transport report, Connecting people: a strategic vision for rail, Transport Minister Jesse Norman said that reopening the line that runs between Exeter and Plymouth via Okehampton and Tavistock is a “very important potential idea.”

He said: “It is something that the Secretary of State has taken a personal interest in.” He also gave assurances that Brunel’s Dawlish sea wall route would remain open and a ‘new’ Okehampton route would complement rather than threaten it. https://www.heritagerailway.co.uk/3223/dartmoor-railway-route-could-lead-to-new-beeching-reversal/ 

 

[Mallard60022]

Going to have to construct a 'Tunnel' all the way along that stretch. Less expensive than a Rail by pass, but there goes the view. Alternatively bring back Steam.

Maybe the Breakwater idea wasn't such a bad one? The seas break many Metres out from the Beach/Wall. That's why Plymouth has one.

P 

Edited October 19, 2023 by Mallard60022

[spamcan61]

2 hours ago, IWCR said:

 

How  often  does  this  happen?,  just  about  every  passenger  will  qualify  for  full  refunds,  many  of  these  being  long  diistance  hence  losses  must  be  very  high..

More  than  a  few  days  a  year  like  this  would  make  reopening  the. Tavistock  route  more  attractive,  not  as  a  Dawlish  Relacement,  but  as  an  alternaative  when  times  are  difficult  and  some  stock .is  to  vunerable.

 

Pete

I very much doubt it, given the cost of reinstating and maintaining the exLSWR route  could likely run into billions, that would fund an awful lot of delay repay.

[Gilbert]

Interestingly Royal Scot 46100 was on a railtour to Paignton etc.

 

Everything ran pretty much to time...which was a surprise frankly...although there was bit of single line working...

 

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:U54616/2023-10-18/detailed

 

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:U54620/2023-10-18/detailed

 

Chris H

[Rivercider]

Of course it is not just inundation from the sea that is the problem along the sea wall. As has been mentioned many

times in this thread there is also the ongoing problem of rock falls from the cliffs on the inland side of the track.

I have made several trips along the coastal route in recent months and see that the rock fall shelter at the east end of Parsons Tunnel is well progressed. (Note that the 'original' Parsons Rock has long since succumbed, and fallen into the sea.)

I also notice extensive work taking place above Kennaway Tunnel  to stabilise the cliff face on Lea Mount, none of that is cheap either.

I suspect that calls for another inland route will not go away,

 

cheers

[Dunsignalling]

9 minutes ago, Rivercider said:

Of course it is not just inundation from the sea that is the problem along the sea wall. As has been mentioned many

times in this thread there is also the ongoing problem of rock falls from the cliffs on the inland side of the track.

I have made several trips along the coastal route in recent months and see that the rock fall shelter at the east end of Parsons Tunnel is well progressed. (Note that the 'original' Parsons Rock has long since succumbed, and fallen into the sea.)

I also notice extensive work taking place above Kennaway Tunnel  to stabilise the cliff face on Lea Mount, none of that is cheap either.

I suspect that calls for another inland route will not go away,

 

cheers

They could do with a rockfall shelter the whole way along, but without the openings!

 

It's a transport facility not a mobile viewing platform. Folk who want to enjoy the view should get off and take a walk along the sea wall....

[Ramblin Rich]

According to the South West Rail Resiliance Programme, that rock shelter is complete. Apologies, another Facebook link

https://fb.watch/nNfk5Fbf43/

Rather sad that the concrete sections went to Newton Abott by road initially 🙄

Edited October 19, 2023 by Ramblin Rich

[rodent279]

I suppose short sighted, parsimonious thinking is nothing new. The railway was only built there because it was the cheapest up-front option.

 

Imagine the D@!ly M@!l headlines today if that was done....idiot builds railway right alongside sea front that suffers direct hits from Atlantic weather systems.......

[Stoke West]

10 hours ago, rodent279 said:

I suppose short sighted, parsimonious thinking is nothing new. The railway was only built there because it was the cheapest up-front option.

 

Imagine the D@!ly M@!l headlines today if that was done....idiot builds railway right alongside sea front that suffers direct hits from Atlantic weather systems.......

Haldon down is the barrier to the south west of Exeter i don't think Brunel had any  HS2 style TBM's available .  You can throw in as many Atlantic weather systems as you want coming from the west , Dawlish is protected on the east coast of Devon !

[Oldddudders]

1 hour ago, Stoke West said:

Haldon down is the barrier to the south west of Exeter i don't think Brunel had any  HS2 style TBM's available .  You can throw in as many Atlantic weather systems as you want coming from the west , Dawlish is protected on the east coast of Devon !

Indeed so, this storm came from the South East, hence Torbay beach huts destroyed, as a well as an iffy beach cafe in Torquay itself. It does happen regularly, though. A year ago (Halloween) I got off a train at Torquay and walked to the bus stop near the Grand Hotel. The sea was blowing up over the prom and across the dual carriageway, so the prompt arrival of a 22 was appreciated!

[PhilJ W]

12 hours ago, rodent279 said:

I suppose short sighted, parsimonious thinking is nothing new. The railway was only built there because it was the cheapest up-front option.

 

Imagine the D@!ly M@!l headlines today if that was done....idiot builds railway right alongside sea front that suffers direct hits from Atlantic weather systems.......

The route was chosen because it would be free of any gradients liable to hamper the Atmospheric Railway. Before about 1850 when steam locomotives had been further developed stationary engines were used whenever there was a gradient.

[Gwiwer]

2 hours ago, Stoke West said:

  You can throw in as many Atlantic weather systems as you want coming from the west , Dawlish is protected on the east coast of Devon !

And therein lay the problem this week.
 

A deepening storm system which formed over the Atlantic struck from the south-east. Most which affect these isles do so from a quarter between south-west and north-west. 
 

The direction was determined by “big picture” weather with a huge anticyclone parked across Scandinavia which meant Babet tracked differently to most British Atlantic depressions. 
 

As we know despite the storm being aimed directly at the sea wall and with monstrous seas crashing right over it the railway stood up well. 
 

It is the most recent rolling stock which has let the railway down. 
 

No inland deviation will alter the design of those trains. No inland deviation will serve the significant region of Torbay and the coastal towns. No inland deviation will serve the otherwise somewhat isolated Totnes and Ivybridge. 
 

An inland deviation can only be justified if a stand-alone business case exists for it. Namely that sufficient traffic is likely to use it between Tavistock and Exeter or between Okehampton and Plymouth. There is very little intermediate traffic to be won and I don’t believe any of the proposals suggest reopening the likes of Bridestowe or Lydford for that very reason. 
 

We have not yet got a firm proposal (never mind “spades in the ground”) to reopen the Bere Alston - Tavistock section. The “missing link” is, in my opinion, likely to stay missing for many more years. 
 

 

[rodent279]

1 hour ago, PhilJ W said:

The route was chosen because it would be free of any gradients liable to hamper the Atmospheric Railway. Before about 1850 when steam locomotives had been further developed stationary engines were used whenever there was a gradient.

I understand that, but they didn't want to go to the expense of the tunnels, cuttings and embankments that would be necessary to keep the grades to a manageable level.

 

Enlarging on the above, I believe the reason the sainted IKB used timber for most of the Cornish viaducts was because the initial cost was less than for stone viaducts. In other words, the Cornwall Railway and to a lesser extent the SDR were built on the cheap.

Edited October 20, 2023 by rodent279

[Mallard60022]

10 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

And therein lay the problem this week.
 

A deepening storm system which formed over the Atlantic struck from the south-east. Most which affect these isles do so from a quarter between south-west and north-west. 
 

The direction was determined by “big picture” weather with a huge anticyclone parked across Scandinavia which meant Babet tracked differently to most British Atlantic depressions. 
 

As we know despite the storm being aimed directly at the sea wall and with monstrous seas crashing right over it the railway stood up well. 
 

It is the most recent rolling stock which has let the railway down. 
 

No inland deviation will alter the design of those trains. No inland deviation will serve the significant region of Torbay and the coastal towns. No inland deviation will serve the otherwise somewhat isolated Totnes and Ivybridge. 
 

An inland deviation can only be justified if a stand-alone business case exists for it. Namely that sufficient traffic is likely to use it between Tavistock and Exeter or between Okehampton and Plymouth. There is very little intermediate traffic to be won and I don’t believe any of the proposals suggest reopening the likes of Bridestowe or Lydford for that very reason. 
 

We have not yet got a firm proposal (never mind “spades in the ground”) to reopen the Bere Alston - Tavistock section. The “missing link” is, in my opinion, likely to stay missing for many more years. 
 

 

The only thing I'd say that isn't quite correct there is really it's Okehampton to Exeter and Tavy(Gunnislake @ Bere Alston) to Plymuff; both for Students and Workers as well as some Leisure/Entertainment/possible Shopping. However, the Tavy Okey link is really a bit of a pipe dream.

Phil

[Gwiwer]

1 minute ago, Mallard60022 said:

The only thing I'd say that isn't quite correct there is really it's Okehampton to Exeter and Tavy(Gunnislake @ Bere Alston) to Plymuff; both for Students and Workers as well as some Leisure/Entertainment/possible Shopping. However, the Tavy Okey link is really a bit of a pipe dream.

Phil

Ah yes but Oke - Exeter is already running (case proven) and Tavy - Plymouth is still being argued over. 
 

My point being that any business case for the Tavy - Oke link would need to demonstrate the business case for other traffic flows none of which is a natural nor commonly-made journey. 

[Pete Haitch]

 

All around the UK, older sea defences, coastal roads and coastal railways are being reviewed and risk assessed against rising sea levels due to global warming and changing weather patterns. The Thames barrier and associated downstream defences were only completed in 1982/83 yet desperately need their height raising to prevent a more serious overtopping than has already occurred.  The likelihood, and impact, of storm damage is greater today than when IKB was wandering around South Devon. 

 

There is a separate thread ongoing re the reopening of Okehampton - Tavistock, here: 

 

Pete.

 

Tavistock - Breakfast in Bob's and year-round Christmas cake and mince pudding in Karen's.

 

[Not Jeremy]

2 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

Ah yes but Oke - Exeter is already running (case proven) and Tavy - Plymouth is still being argued over. 
 

My point being that any business case for the Tavy - Oke link would need to demonstrate the business case for other traffic flows none of which is a natural nor commonly-made journey. 

 

I think that's fair comment, except that it ignores the role that politics can play in these instances.

 

A well worked through and considered Tavistock proposal from DCC is currently with the Government, and reconnecting Tavistock is/was on the list of "what we are going to do to make up for canning part of HS2" that the Government hurriedly put out. I know it can (quite rightly) be criticised on many fronts, but there it is.

 

Business cases apart, a restored Northern Route would be useful when issues arise around the coast, for whatever reason including "short circuited Hitachis" or whatever the recent malaise proves to have been.

 

I agree it is not "likely" but it is possible, the fact is that vast amounts of money can be blown on all sorts of projects by Government when the mood takes it. In terms of "bang for buck" restoring the Northern route is a bloody cheap project.

 

And politically it would be a big "plus" that could be flagged up in the face of the relentless criticism (which I agree is largely deserved) that the Government currently gets.

 

None of which, I agree, makes it "likely".

 

In the meantime I have been down to Okehampton on the new service several times and thoroughly enjoyed the trip every time. I will be travelling down there again soon, as it seems are many other people.

 

Which positive result was not what was predicted by various naysayers before the line was reconnected, as evidenced by various old threads on here.

 

Mind you, you'd have to be out of your mind to want to go to Plymouth, unless you really had to.

 

Sorry, my little joke, and trains are available from North Road to all points west....

 

 

 

 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Not Jeremy
taking away a given