The Official Rapido APT-E Thread

[Marcyg]

Just pre-ordered my set from Locomotion. Can't wait!!!

[pwr]

Modern Locomotives Illustrated carried an issue on APT. May still be available as a back number

 

Paul R

[pwr]

That's on the Rapido flyer as well, but the model will actually have E1T bogies according to the computer model files I've seen. Have no fear.

Kit I am pleased to hear that. However I want one in O Gauge!

 

I also count myself lucky to have a number of GA drawings of the train and various bits of it acquired across the years including one of the power car that I am sure was used by the team that built it. I got it from a second hand stall at a model railway exhibition.

 

Paul R

Edited July 12, 2014 by pwr

[modelpara]

Modern Locomotives Illustrated carried an issue on APT. May still be available as a back number

Paul R

Unfortunately those issues are like gold dust

[pwr]

The train was also covered - somewhat surprisingly - in the David and Charles book about British Rail DMU's. The British Railcar from AEC to HST by R M Tufnell. I expect these are as rare as hens teeth too.

[pwr]

Thinking back to the Western Region trails I wonder if any thought was given to altering the gear ratios to enable a higher speed. Could it have achieved 155mph +?

 

Paul R

[delticfan]

Just ordered mine from the helpful staff at locomotion, never heard of Rapido before but very impressed with their North American models. Good price too bearing in mind Bachmanns crazy price hike. Ordered DCC sound.

[Mr_Tilt]

Kit I am pleased to hear that. However I want one in O Gauge!

 

I also count myself lucky to have a number of GA drawings of the train and various bits of it acquired across the years including one of the power car that I am sure was used by the team that built it. I got it from a second hand stall at a model railway exhibition.

 

Paul R

 

I think you may have to wait a bit for an O gauge version.....

 

You need to beware of any APD drawings as the state of the train was very date dependant. We had two major rebuilds and numerous updates, almost one between each set of tests, so unless your drawings are dated sometime in early to middle 1975 they won't depict the train as it is at the moment.

 

Thinking back to the Western Region trails I wonder if any thought was given to altering the gear ratios to enable a higher speed. Could it have achieved 155mph +?

 

Paul R

 

There wasn't any need to, the train was already designed to do 155 mph anyway, including gear ratios etc.

 

If you check back on some of my earlier posts you'll see I put the point that had we not had the problems with the turbine in PC2 we'd have been able to attempt 155 in the cooler hours of that Sunday morning, when the turbines would be producing more power. As it was by the time we'd sorted out the manual control system for the faulty turbine set it was almost noon and very hot, thus limiting all of the turbine's outputs.

[Colin_McLeod]

Would it ever have been possible to fix that? It would have been odd if the speed of the train depended on the time of hte day!!!

[The Stationmaster]

Would it ever have been possible to fix that? It would have been odd if the speed of the train depended on the time of hte day!!!

Actually it's relatively simple to fix it in timetabling terms - if you ghavea traction unit which is - in this case - dependent on ambient temperature to achieve a certain level of performance you just adjust the timings to suit a worse case scenario.  If the level of temperature dependency (as in this case) isn't too wide you would probably take a midpoint.  

 

The Derby train performance computer programme which was used to produce the raw timings did a lot of averaging in any case to allow for the weather, different rail conditions, and a traction unit in 'average' condition (i.e. no train was timed based on peak performance).  And after the raw timings were handed over to train planners they made their own adjustments anyway plus building in the usual recovery and performance margins. 

[winky84]

Unfortunately those issues are like gold dust

Modern Locomotives Illustrated No. 176. Blue Pullman Stocks & The APT Fleets. I managed to pick up a copy of this at the Ian Allan publishing stall at Warley MRE 2 years ago. Brand spanky new, £3.95. There was a good dozen on the stack.

[Mr_Tilt]

Would it ever have been possible to fix that? It would have been odd if the speed of the train depended on the time of hte day!!!

 

We're talking about the maximum all-out speed of the train here, and turbines don't usually run at 100% all the time.

 

I guess in service a turbine APT would have been scheduled at 140 mph or with different engines at 155 mph. Even before the 1973 fuel crisis service gas turbine powered APTs would not have used multiple Leyland turbines, just too many things to go wrong. Maybe Rolls Royce could have been persuaded to be practical and come up with something to do the job.

 

It's all a bit of a 'What If' scenario as the turbine wasn't a practical solution past 1973.

[Road-Rat]

Igor,

Rapido, is NOT a 'just starting out' train company.  I have bought a model of The Canadian, which cost a damn sight more money than this.  I must say that their models are exceptional quality.  I for one will be buying it.

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

Maybe Rolls Royce could have been persuaded to be practical and come up with something to do the job.

 

 

Would RR have been able to re-purpose any of their aeroplane turbines?  Or is a train turbine a completely different animal?  I had in mind how flexible diesels are, for example the same unit powering torpedo boats and locomotives.

[GRUNFOS]

  A couple of re-heated Olympus engines might have done trick!!!!!!    

[Adrian Wintle]

Would RR have been able to re-purpose any of their aeroplane turbines?  Or is a train turbine a completely different animal?  I had in mind how flexible diesels are, for example the same unit powering torpedo boats and locomotives.

 

Yes. The same basic turbine designs have been used for powering ships and aeroplanes. The Olympus was developed into variants for the Vulcan, TSR.2, Concorde, Class 42 Destroyer, Class 21 Frigate, and Class 22 Frigate amongst other applications.

 

The CN/VIA UAC Turbo used a Pratt & Whitney PT6, which was (and still is) very widely used in aircraft (as a turboprop) and was used in the Lotus 56 race car.

 

Adrian

Edited July 16, 2014 by Adrian Wintle

[69843]

As much as I would like to have one, I'm afraid I will probably have to skip getting this, just due to a few competing factors. However, I can happily say that I wish Rapido all the best in the manufacture of this project, and we are lucky to have those who worked on it bless us with their knowledge.

 

And as to the video, I must say that it was brilliantly executed! Really shows that Rapido gets the idea of a fun, train loving company.

 

 

Although I'm with Bill in wanting No.1 as well...(Hat, coat, Class 03, gone!)

[Mr_Tilt]

Would RR have been able to re-purpose any of their aeroplane turbines?  Or is a train turbine a completely different animal?  I had in mind how flexible diesels are, for example the same unit powering torpedo boats and locomotives.

 

At a rough guess, and without any input form anyone at BR when I was there, I'd say the most likely candidate would have been the Tyne.

 

Even the least powerful variant of the Tyne pushed out about 4,500 hp, so two of them would have equalled the APT-P Power Cars. The Tyne was relatively compact too, being about 9 ft long and 4.5 ft in diameter and it only weighed just over a ton. Of course that was without a generator or alternator attached to it.

[melmerby]

Would RR have been able to re-purpose any of their aeroplane turbines?  Or is a train turbine a completely different animal?  I had in mind how flexible diesels are, for example the same unit powering torpedo boats and locomotives.

Some RR Aero engines (e.g. Olympus) also found use in warships and as power generators:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Olympus

 

So they must be fairly versatile.

 

Keith

[JSpencer]

Yes. The same basic turbine designs have been used for powering ships and aeroplanes. The Olympus was developed into variants for the Vulcan, TSR.2, Concorde, Class 42 Destroyer, Class 21 Frigate, and Class 22 Frigate amongst other applications.

 

The CN/VIA UAC Turbo used a Pratt & Whitney PT6, which was (and still is) very widely used in aircraft (as a turboprop) and was used in the Lotus 56 race car.

 

Adrian

They were also used in the Invincible class aircraft carriers too.

 

The main problem with gas turbines is that require a lot of specialist materials, meaning a very high cost unlike electric motors or even diesel engines.

 

As ananology, is comparing Turbomotive with a normal Princess. Running costs between both were quite similar (probably a tad advantageous for Turbomotive) but building costs for Turbomotive were 3 times more.

[Adrian Wintle]

They were also used in the Invincible class aircraft carriers too.

 

The main problem with gas turbines is that require a lot of specialist materials, meaning a very high cost unlike electric motors or even diesel engines.

 

As ananology, is comparing Turbomotive with a normal Princess. Running costs between both were quite similar (probably a tad advantageous for Turbomotive) but building costs for Turbomotive were 3 times more.

 

An even more significant problem is the large volume of airflow through a gas turbine, particularly the very hot exhaust. This isn't so much of an issue on a warship, where the immediate power availability is worth the design issues, or on an aeroplane, where there tends to be the availability of a lot of air both to feed the engine and to dissipate the heat, but it is a significant issue for ground transport, particularly where enclosed spaces are involved (tunnels etc.) or in close proximity to people (station platforms).

 

That being said, there have been successful uses of gas turbines in niche ground applications. The aformentioned Lotus 56 would likely have won the 1968 Indianapolis 500 had it not suffered a fuel pump failure while leading late in the race. It's predecessor, the STP-Paxton car was the class of the field in 1967 but had a transmission bearing failure with 4 laps to go..

 

Adrian

Edited July 17, 2014 by Adrian Wintle

[Mr_Tilt]

Adrian's point about air flow is well made.

 

The APT-E Power Cars' entire side grilles are the intakes for the turbines and if the grilles themselves weren't there you'd be able to see the zillions of tubular air filters hidden behind them. Walking down the centre of the Power Cars was a noisy and hot operation and there weren't any hand rails to guard people from the turbines on those H&S free days. We've had to put hand rails up inside PC2 in the Locomotion museum now even though the turbines DON'T run, but you can get a bit of an idea what it was like back in the 70s.

[pwr]

Kit

 

Are the turbines in the E train capable of being run or are they seized?

 

Paul R

[Colin_McLeod]

I have tried e mail and I have tried PM. Perhaps if I put my questions on this thread, rapido may reply,.

 

Jason please advise. Please.

 

Hi Jason

First of all I wish you great success with the 4mm scale APT-E project.
This PM is about that model. You said you would try to answer some questions that had
not been answered yet on RMweb, so here are some I asked earlier:

1) If I buy the DC version and fit a non sound decoder of my own, will I be able to
control lights? specifically be able to select which end has white lights and which end
has red lights showing.

2) With my own fitted decoder will I be able to turn the interior lights on and off?

3) While I will run my APT-E briefly as a four car experimental train, it is my plan to
model the fictional scenario where it entered revenue earning service. To this end I
have ordered three additional trailer cars to run a seven car set. My question is as
follows;

I understand from reading RMweb, that the trailer car without the instrumention is only
about half full of seats. For a revenue earning train I would want to fill the entire
coach with seats.

Will you be selling separately an interior so that I can make the trailer coaches all
fully seated?

Also will you be selling alternative coach numbers so that my trailer cars are not all
numbered the same.

Thank you for your patience with my questions.

Regards

Colin McLeod

 

[rapidotrains]

Hi Colin,

 

I haven't received any email from you at all.  Did you email through our web site?

 

I have tried e mail and I have tried PM. Perhaps if I put my questions on this thread, rapido may reply,.

 

Jason please advise. Please.

 

Hi Jason

 

First of all I wish you great success with the 4mm scale APT-E project.

This PM is about that model. You said you would try to answer some questions that had

not been answered yet on RMweb, so here are some I asked earlier:

 

1) If I buy the DC version and fit a non sound decoder of my own, will I be able to

control lights? specifically be able to select which end has white lights and which end

has red lights showing.

That should not be a problem. We have not yet decided whether there will be two decoders or one - it depends on the reliability of the connectors between cars. Depending on the silent decoder you use, you should be able to change the directional lights through the CV settings.

 

2) With my own fitted decoder will I be able to turn the interior lights on and off?

At this point they are designed to be on all the time, DC or DCC. We already have a lot of wires running from car to car, and if the interior lights are controlled from the decoder it will add even more.

 

3) While I will run my APT-E briefly as a four car experimental train, it is my plan to

model the fictional scenario where it entered revenue earning service. To this end I

have ordered three additional trailer cars to run a seven car set. My question is as

follows;

 

I understand from reading RMweb, that the trailer car without the instrumention is only

about half full of seats. For a revenue earning train I would want to fill the entire

coach with seats.

 

Will you be selling separately an interior so that I can make the trailer coaches all

fully seated?

Hmmm... I am sure this is something we can arrange with Locomotion.

 

Also will you be selling alternative coach numbers so that my trailer cars are not all

numbered the same.

The trailer cars will be unnumbered. Depending on the number of orders we receive, we can include water slide transfers with a selection of plausible numbers. Or I am sure one of the many transfers suppliers will be able to make them in a jiffy.

 

Thank you for your patience with my questions.

 

Regards

 

Colin McLeod

Not at all! Those were very logical questions and I am sure others were wondering the same thing. I'm just sorry I didn't receive your emails.

 

-Jason