Oxfordrail - Adams Radial

[chris45lsw]

As discussed there were four boilers available for the three locos - 2 x Drummond, boiler Nos. 916 & 921 (D916 & D921) , 1 x Adams with short dome (AS) & 1 x Adams with tall dome (AT).  AT was on EKR No. 5 / 3488 (30583) when acquired by the SR though it went into initial SR service carrying D916.  So it got back the boiler it had when sold out of service in 1917 for its last couple of years on BR &, of course, still has it today.  The boiler history post War is:-

3125/30582: AS Dec 45 - Apr 54 / D921 May 54 - June 60 / D916 July 60- July 61 (withdrawal)

3488/30583: D916 Dec 46 - Sep 49 / D921 Oct 49 - Jan 53 / D916 Feb 53 - Mar 59 / AT Apr 59 - July 61 (withdrawal) & into preservation.

3520/30584:

[chris45lsw]

Somehow I posted before completing my reply!  To continue:-

 

3520/30584:  D921 Mar 45 - Mar 48 / AT Apr 48 - Aug 54 / AS Sep 54 - Jan 61 (withdrawal)

 

So D916 was in use right up to the end in July 1961 (on 30582) and D921 was last used (also on 30582 in June 1960.

 

My hypothetical railway is nominally set in the Summer of 1954 so I will happily take Oxford's 30584 with AT plus Hornby's 30582 with a Drummond boiler, though I will have to change the late crest to early emblem.  I'll have to wait until one or the other, hopefully, make 30583 with Drummond boiler!

 

Chris Knowles-Thomas

[Dunsignalling]

Many thanks, Chris.

 

Your posts have filled in ALL the remaining blanks in the notes I have been compiling over the years.

 

My OO Works 30583 has a Drummond boiler so it looks like 30582 Hornby (but alter the crest) and 30584 Oxford (but fit the lower dome) for me as I've decided on Summer 1958 as the common date for my Radials. It has also occurred that purchasing the Oxford 30583 would give me flexibility right through from late 1954 to the first half of 1960!

 

Regards

 

John

Edited July 10, 2015 by Dunsignalling

[OOgaugeJaf]

Cannot be long now? We're Oxford rail going to announce another project to follow? J27 would be nice!

[Les1952]

J27 would be nice but I suspect the radial needs a few sales and kind reviews to justify ANY second locos...

 

Les

[Roy P]

From  http://www.oxfordrail.com/

 

 

"Is this a tester product?".  "Absolutely not. We started the production of scale locos and associated products 3 to 4 years ago. We used this time to build up our manufacturing capability. We have a 5 year development programme for Oxford Rail. We have developed a strategy, researching the market and identifying products that you want. We have products planned that have previously been produced, but need updating. We have a programme that has identified locomotives, coaches and wagons for future release. We will announce new items throughout 2015. This is not a locomotive - it is a product range".

 

and..    " I am currently working on our next loco and I just love it...."

 

The Oxford Rail Adams Radial tank will clearly not achieve the sales volumes that it might have done had the Hornby alternative not been offered. 

​Taking the above quote at face value (and why wouldn't we?) it would be short sighted to think that the grand plan will stand or fall on the success of the first model.Of course, kind reviews of the Radial will help the public's perception of future locos and their wagons need to show that they are a match for Bachmann in quality terms and not just a cheaper option.

 

I seem to recall, hidden somewhere in all that has been written about Oxford Rail, something relating to a rolling programme with quarterly announcements. 

Oxford Rail still need to get into its stride but it does appear to have more direct control over its manufacturing capability than the more established UK based / British outline companies. Hopefully. in time, this will become apparent with regard to timely output and quality control. 

Personally I wish them well. Partly because another player keeps the others on their toes and partly because Taff's link to a significant part of Britain's toy manufacturing heritage; Something I'm fascinated by.

 

All that said; a J27 would be nice. We'll see. Interesting times I think.

 

RP

Edited August 3, 2015 by Roy P

[Legend]

Yes , also wish them well and I hope they pursue their range strategy . It is unfortunate that their first loco is duplicated by Hornby and it will need to be of an equivalent standard to stand a chance, even though I believe its £20 less expensive. I will buy a PO wagon or two just to try out, but I've never wanted a radial, being darn sarf.  I'd imagine model shop owners will be welcoming Oxford with open arms , with Hornby going toward direct sales and Bachmann pricing themselves at top end of market (if not pricing themselves out of market) they need something to sell to the value conscious enthusiast.  If Oxford can bring out a range they may well fill the gap here. I remember 76/77 when Mainline appeared with a well thought out range , more detailed and less expensive than Hornby at the time. I'm hoping Oxford will re kindle that excitement. Just a bit worried that promised updates seem not to have happened . Hope they haven't got cold feet.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

The choices of subjects with which to grow the range will be interesting. Any business can use a few 'milch cow' products in the range, and that has to be the thinking behind the RCH minerals: the colourful liveries reliably obtaining 'eye-candy' impulse purchases. I hope that is true for them, considering the volume of this subject already produced and in circulation.

 

There's the problem, the competition are already 'in possession' of the known reliable earners. I imagine Bachmann have truly cleaned up on their BR mk1s and 16T minerals, among other items required in some quantity for BR steam and transition era modelling. Hornby have a dominant stake in glamorous steam express locos. The BR standard steam locos and major grouping era types are nearly all ticked off. Between four of the existing players, the UK diesel traction fleet is pretty much sewn up.

 

The competitive ground now, appears to be finding genres that offer a potential range of new subjects, if that genre proves popular. Look at the speed of advance on pre-group tank engines and 0-6-0s. With a half dozen others all bidding for a piece of this action, there's likely to be a scramble to stake a claim on the remaining 'possibles' that have the potential for decent sales volumes..

[Fenman]

... There's the problem, the competition are already 'in possession' of the known reliable earners. ...

 

The competitive ground now, appears to be finding genres that offer a potential range of new subjects, if that genre proves popular. Look at the speed of advance on pre-group tank engines and 0-6-0s. With a half dozen others all bidding for a piece of this action, there's likely to be a scramble to stake a claim on the remaining 'possibles' that have the potential for decent sales volumes..

 

I guess there are a couple of ways of segmenting this market:

- produce models of prototypes that no-one else has tackled (like you, I think that's hard); or

- produce models of the same prototypes, but which differ in some significant way that the market likes - which, I imagine, would either be price or quality.

 

Vi Trains tried producing models which were differentiated on price: cheaper 37s and 47s. They seem to be occasionally mining different liveries for these models, but don't appear to be in any hurry to introduce other models; I would guess that means the low-cost business model has not been, commercially speaking, a huge success for them.

 

Heljan seem to have made a market out of one-off and odd-ball prototypes, done to a fairly middling quality level (the Class 86 might have been a low point for them, but I was also a bit disappointed with the Clayton). Though I'll take more notice when their range expands from locos into other rolling stock.

 

Hornby seem to have made more of a success of lower-cost models, with the Railroad range. So much so that they are now producing new tooling specifically for that range rather than just re-using old tooling that is no longer to hifi standards. Bachmann don't seem to be in any rush to join them, though. Maybe that's also related to Hornby's overwhelming brand recognition - to most people Hornby is model railways, and their distribution network in non-specialist shops is unrivalled. That makes new entrants to the lower-cost market face a bit of an uphill struggle - for distribution, and in the face of a hugely dominant brand. Though I suspect it's also that lower detailed models are anyway a declining market. Where Hornby has produced hifi and lofi versions of the same model, I wonder what the ratio of sales is?

 

Which seems to me to leave differentiation on higher quality. What are perceived by some on here as unreasonably high prices do not seem to deter others from buying. With Bachmann and Hornby having raised the bar incredibly high, and with DJM now promising the "best ever" quality and Rapido promising "insane" levels of detail, it looks to me like the only spare growth space is in the very highest quality area. With prices to match.

 

If I were a new entrant and looking to make a mark, while being confident of my design/manufacturing skills, and even though it seems as if there is already ridiculous levels of over-competition, I think I'd be tempted to have a look at both the 47 and the 37. Nice though some of them are, no-one has yet produced an RTR model of either which everyone can agree is just right (if memory serves, the latest Bachmann 37 just reviewed in Rail Express scored a mediocre 3 out of 5). Vast numbers of modellers might be in the market for models which capture perfectly the prototype. And, as Vi Trains has proved (and Lima before them), you can keep on churning out the livery variations for years ahead.

 

I'd also be looking at other innovations, too (though not stuff which I imagine would be a deal-maker for most) - Pat Hammond on MREmag used to ask why DCC chips couldn't be fitted into sockets on the underside of models, similar to SD card slots on cameras - why do you have to take the body off a loco to fit one? Enough of those sort of incremental innovations might also make my products more attractive and justify higher prices.

 

Though this is just idle speculation: I'd not want to be either an existing manufacturer or a new entrant. It looks to me like a mightily tough business. I have no interest in buying an Adams Radial, but I am looking forward to seeing where Oxfordrail pitches it

 

Paul

Edited August 4, 2015 by Fenman

[Dunsignalling]

If I were a new entrant and looking to make a mark, while being confident of my design/manufacturing skills, and even though it seems as if there is already ridiculous levels of over-competition, I think I'd be tempted to have a look at both the 47 and the 37. Nice though some of them are, no-one has yet produced an RTR model of either which everyone can agree is just right (if memory serves, the latest Bachmann 37 just reviewed in Rail Express scored a mediocre 3 out of 5). Vast numbers of modellers might be in the market for models which capture perfectly the prototype.

 

 

Paul

I don't think that is actually possible; some diesel fans seem to possess an uncanny ability to detect errors or omissions that can't even be measured!

 

Even if you got all the detail fittings correct, they'd probably say that something wasn't quite the right shape......... 

 

John

Edited August 4, 2015 by Dunsignalling

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...Which seems to me to leave differentiation on higher quality. What are perceived by some on here as unreasonably high prices do not seem to deter others from buying. With Bachmann and Hornby having raised the bar incredibly high, and with DJM now promising the "best ever" quality and Rapido promising "insane" levels of detail, it looks to me like the only spare growth space is in the very highest quality area. With prices to match.

 

If I were a new entrant and looking to make a mark, while being confident of my design/manufacturing skills, and even though it seems as if there is already ridiculous levels of over-competition, I think I'd be tempted to have a look at both the 47 and the 37. Nice though some of them are, no-one has yet produced an RTR model of either which everyone can agree is just right (if memory serves, the latest Bachmann 37 just reviewed in Rail Express scored a mediocre 3 out of 5). Vast numbers of modellers might be in the market for models which capture perfectly the prototype. And, as Vi Trains has proved (and Lima before them), you can keep on churning out the livery variations for years ahead...

 

Contrariwise, from what retailers have told me the Duff Tractor genre is nothing like what it was for guaranteed sales. The much diminished activity of Vi in the UK market over the past three years rather confirms that view. Just how good would the newcomer have to be? Bach's D1500 really 'gets it' for the prototype I first saw burbling away in KX station throat (now over a half century past!) and the EE type 3 now looks right. The only current relatively newly tooled diesel model that offends my eye is Hornby's Brush 2, which has a very unsubtle error, yet very few notice it. (I realise that there are a couple of other diesels considered to be in the same category, but don't know enough about them.) And since Hornby could at short notice put an upgraded Lima body on their excellent running gear for the Brush 2, I can imagine that any savvy potential competitor for that one would think 'perhaps not'.

 

That said, going after dated/poor models of popular subjects with a high grade competitor probably has some legs. The technique to deliver a very much better Terrier and Dean Goods is now proven, and I suspect those would sell. I would like someone to take a swing at the 125 and 225 as complete sets, matching what Bachmann have done on the Midland Pullman. But mostly it has to be subjects never previously available or only with very dated/nla models in RTR; which path all of Hornby, Bachmann, Heljan, Dapol and DJM are clearly treading. As above, tough business to break into.

[The Stationmaster]

Yes , also wish them well and I hope they pursue their range strategy . It is unfortunate that their first loco is duplicated by Hornby and it will need to be of an equivalent standard to stand a chance, even though I believe its £20 less expensive. I will buy a PO wagon or two just to try out, but I've never wanted a radial, being darn sarf.  I'd imagine model shop owners will be welcoming Oxford with open arms , with Hornby going toward direct sales and Bachmann pricing themselves at top end of market (if not pricing themselves out of market) they need something to sell to the value conscious enthusiast.  If Oxford can bring out a range they may well fill the gap here. I remember 76/77 when Mainline appeared with a well thought out range , more detailed and less expensive than Hornby at the time. I'm hoping Oxford will re kindle that excitement. Just a bit worried that promised updates seem not to have happened . Hope they haven't got cold feet.

I wonder if Oxfordrail are actually setting something of a hurdle for themselves by coming in with comparatively low prices?  It can rebound in two ways.  Firstly they unavoidably face similar costs to other folk manufacturing in, and importing from, China so in reality the only way they can reduce prices is by reducing their own margin and probably having to gain cash flow from volume; I really wonder if that is really the best economic model to follow in the model railway business (especially when you look at everybody else in the UK market who either never followed that approach or have abandoned it).

 

The second problem is the marketing consequence of the first.  Even if they are only using low - by market comparison - prices to get established in the marketplace and planning to raise them later they will then encounter exactly what Bachmann has had to go through with numerous comments about profiteering and so on when they had to raise their prices to cover rising costs.  Thus purchasers who were tempted in by low prices become disenchanted with the brand when it starts to charge a full economic price.

 

These two factors must unavoidably run hand-in-hand in the cost, pricing, and marketing of models as they try to build their business and - just as critically - invest in expanding their range of models.  It doesn't really matter what they make and sell in model railway terms (provided their not complete dogs of course) because they are seeking to enter a tough and very demanding marketplace where opinions can rapidly be changed among those with 'net access and where the magazines can through their comments still have a significant impact on the views of the market.

 

We also have the problem of the niche market area - a good place perhaps for a new manufacturer to start but in my view those who are most likely to be successful are those who find a particular niche or theme on which they can build rather than relying simply on 'market research' or asking modellers what they want.  The situation with the radials illustrates exactly this problem - four concerns heading into the market with probably at least two of them (if not three) more likely to have been driven as much by poll results as by any sort of 'theme' or strategic approach.  Get your theme identified and pursue it as a longer term goal is one thing - cherry picking off polls is something else and is, I suspect, far more likely to fall to the fickleness and economics of the marketplace.

[Legend]

I do think that there is a place in the market at the lower cost, value for money end.

 

It may just be that Oxford can make a nice return on the margins they make . They do seem to be more vertically integrated than most, which is typically more efficient, cutting out the need for margins at each stage. Even though Bachmann is owned by Kader , they  seem to have to compete in an internal market against European brands with European margins, which I still believe is a contributory if not main reason for such large increases.  I should point out that is only my opinion. Yes I do know Costs are increasing. I benchmark them for an international company . I also know that companies margin expectations do depend on who owns them , whether that's publicly, or privately . 

[Ozexpatriate]

The situation with the radials illustrates exactly this problem - four concerns heading into the market with probably at least two of them (if not three) more likely to have been driven as much by poll results as by any sort of 'theme' or strategic approach.  Get your theme identified and pursue it as a longer term goal is one thing - cherry picking off polls is something else and is, I suspect, far more likely to fall to the fickleness and economics of the marketplace.

Doing what others are not is essential for a new entrant to the market. There must be differentiation.

 

As noted above DJModels and RapidoTrains intend to differentiate with detail and fidelity, and given that Rapido's core market is Canada, they can be very selective with British outline models.

 

I think already we've seen the biggest problem from cherry picking the polls - duplication. With head-to-head duplication there can be little differentiation, other than price and nuances of detail.  This is OxfordRail's biggest challenge with the Adams Radial.

 

It will be interesting to see what they choose next.

 

Coaching stock (not Mk-I) would be a brave choice but, in my opinion, not a crazy choice.

 

Based solely on announcement-to-delivery times, Bachmann appears to be struggling with manufacturing priority for their coaching offerings leaving Hornby to be pretty much the only game in town (excepting 'one off' subjects like the Kernow/DJM LSWR gate stock).

 

Coaches comport to OxfordRail's vision to be a broad line supplier. Coaches are in the space of doing what others are not. They are something that people get excited about.  So long as profitability issues can be managed, I think they are a good choice for a new entrant to 'stake a claim'.

 

Time will tell.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Ozexpatriate

[it's-er]

We should remember that Oxford have a terrific record in producing product at remarkably reasonable prices. Their cars, vans and lorries at 1/43, 1/76 and 1/148 scales are first class, incorporate wonderful detail, and many of the 1/76 models sell at £4.75.

 

Corgi Trackside were in the same market, but I remember them saying they didn't see much future in it, as the market was small. Oxford have categorically proved that wrong, and are in a sense disruptors. Their products are astonishing value for money, and I suspect they can do the same in the model railway field.

 

I find it interesting that Oxford specifically say they plan to produce models that have been produced previously "but need updating" (see Roy P's quote at post 1039 above). 34theletterbetweenB&D's mention of the Dean Goods certainly fits there!

 

John

[JSpencer]

There is not exactly a shortage of prototypes to choose from in steam form.

 

SECR wainwright livery engines will sell like hot cakes IMHO, and there are few preserved as such.

 

Many often sitting in the same shed as the radial.

Edited August 5, 2015 by JSpencer

[JSpencer]

Whilst I do not doubt they and many other manufacturers have 5 year plans. These will doubtless be modified over time as details of what the competition will do appears plus changes in fashion of the market, also even depending on what the market can actually support.

 

This reminds of naval building programs before the world wars, with programs changing based upon intelligence received on what the enemy was doing in order to best exploit the limited (although somewhat vast by today standards ) ship building resources.

 

Put simply, how many of us actually keep to well defined model railway building plan?

[Mark Saunders]

Whilst I do not doubt they and many other manufacturers have 5 year plans. These will doubtless be modified over time as details of what the competition will do appears plus changes in fashion of the market, also even depending on what the market can actually support.

 

This reminds of naval building programs before the world wars, with programs changing based upon intelligence received on what the enemy was doing in order to best exploit the limited (although somewhat vast by today standards ) ship building resources.

 

Put simply, how many of us actually keep to well defined model railway building plan?

 

That is why the former "Classified Section" did so well as many of us have modified our plans and declared items surplus!

 

Mark Saunders

[ruggedpeak]

Given Oxford have a steady business in vehicles, they can fund the Radial project and it does not necessarily have to make a profit. Not only do they have Hornby's model to contend with, but Hornby have coaches to go with them so can grab sales through train packs - I wouldn't be surprised if Hornby market these aggressively in due course.

 

If Oxford can consistently deliver models at £20 below the general price level then all credit to them, and this will give them an advantage, but ultimately profitability will come from making things that sell. My limited view of Oxford's business model is that the vehicles are relatively low cost and low price (i.e. £4 to £30 say) and there is constant variation. If a model doesn't sell it has little impact as it will have been a limited run and its cost in the overall business is negligible.

 

The model rail market is somewhat unpredictable, and values a lot higher. It is no good making something £20 cheaper if no one wants it. Both Hornby and Bachmann have huge stocks of certain models stuck in retail not shifting even at discounts. If limited stocks of a model of a particular Defender doesn't sell at £5 there is no big issue. The tooling has been used loads of times for lots of livery variations. If a £120 loco doesn't shift (and one that is relatively rare so opportunities for further variations is limited) then there is an issue. This will be a learning curve for Oxford as it is a major step up in complexity and cost/value. I hope they make it work.

[alfsboy]

I think with diesels and similar its not really possible to go by drawings to get the model looking right .The eye deceives and lines ,especially compound curves that may well match the drawing look wrong .I know this from making model car masters .even though using works drawing a touch of extra curve here and there made the car look better and more like the prototype .one i can specifically think of was the MGA .It looked a bit flat as per and needed some slight adding of curves to the wing tops to look good .The Lotus Elise was another .following the huge works drawings it was less voluptuous than it should have been .Its worth bearing in mind that body bucks /panel moulds  were hand made and often panels hand beaten so error s crept in .Its been a long standing fact for model car pattern makers.

One mans exact spot on  model is anothers can of worms when it comes to interpreting lines and curves.

[rembrow]

Given Oxford have a steady business in vehicles, they can fund the Radial project and it does not necessarily have to make a profit. Not only do they have Hornby's model to contend with, but Hornby have coaches to go with them so can grab sales through train packs - I wouldn't be surprised if Hornby market these aggressively in due course.

 

If Oxford can consistently deliver models at £20 below the general price level then all credit to them, and this will give them an advantage, but ultimately profitability will come from making things that sell. My limited view of Oxford's business model is that the vehicles are relatively low cost and low price (i.e. £4 to £30 say) and there is constant variation. If a model doesn't sell it has little impact as it will have been a limited run and its cost in the overall business is negligible.

 

The model rail market is somewhat unpredictable, and values a lot higher. It is no good making something £20 cheaper if no one wants it. Both Hornby and Bachmann have huge stocks of certain models stuck in retail not shifting even at discounts. If limited stocks of a model of a particular Defender doesn't sell at £5 there is no big issue. The tooling has been used loads of times for lots of livery variations. If a £120 loco doesn't shift (and one that is relatively rare so opportunities for further variations is limited) then there is an issue. This will be a learning curve for Oxford as it is a major step up in complexity and cost/value. I hope they make it work.

As you say, Oxford have a steady business in diecast/plastic vehicles, as it mustn't be forgotten that their innovation has been to use plastic tooled parts for detail parts, including lorry superstructures as well as diecast metal. When Oxford decided to move into scale diecast road vehicles, having previously operated in producing non scale vehicles for business promotion, they started their ranges in a very innovative way, to differentiate themselves from the other market players, so in 'o' gauge the first scale models were a series of ice cream vans and in 'oo'gauge, a series of Chipperfields circus animal lorries and trailers. They branched out into multiple ranges, particularly in 'oo' gauge, with military vehicles, cars and vans, fire service vehicles, which nobody else was producing. However their pricing has been somewhat amazing, with cars and vans in 'oo' gauge being consistently below £5, however in the more crowded bus and coach market, they are undercutting the other players by significant amounts. Oxford coaches, such as the Southdown Royal Tiger coach were selling new for £15, whereas EFE single decker bus/coach types were £28 plus, Corgi about £28, Northcord about £36. So they have a history of being able to undercut, on price, existing market brands, when entering a new market, and producing innovative ranges that others wouldn't touch. Another example is from the latest release in the 'oo' gauge military vehicles, a Diamond T 3 axle prime mover lorry and 3 axle towed tank transporter trailer, retailing together for £20 - unbelievable value for the quality.

Part, if not the main reason, for Oxfords ability to be very keen on price and flexible on the types of products, is that it has its own production facility in China, both for diecast and injection plastic moulding, which means that it is not dependent on a separate supplier, so has control of production, and costs, to a greater extent. Yes it will still be affected by increased production costs in China, but clearly its flexibility via its own workforce is a positive advantage. It's also worth noting that Oxford has a long term aim of returning diecast model production to the UK.

[it's-er]

Agree fully rembrow's comments above. Another major factor is that Oxford is a very lean organisation. I'm sure I read recently that they have 4 or 5 staff (as I recall it, this was a comment by TAFF himself on the Oxofrd Diecast Collectors Facebook page). Consequently their administrative overheads are low.

 

John

[Arthur]

 

Just had three notifications from Hattons, one after the other, ref. my pre-ordered late crest model. Two claiming expected availability in September and one claiming delivery between October and December 2015.

 

Take your pick.

[farren]

2016 then, Arthur

[mikeharvey22]

Well the Operations and Maintenance leaflet is now online. That seems like a good sign to me.

 

http://www.oxfordrail.com/76/leaflets/OR76AR%20Maint%20Sheet.pdf