Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 A view shared by octogenarian Formula 1 supremo Bernie Ecclebum. He has recently said that he isn't worried whether young people find F1 attractive or not - because they have no money. ...I wonder whether the sponsors of F1...who have provided Ecclebum with his livlihood....share his view. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoingUnderground Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 I can only agree with Torr Giffard's comments in that we are as customers have been for very many years shaping our hobby, but not in the way that he would like to see. We won't pay the prices necessary to support our local model shops. We won't pay the high prices necessary to support smaller suppliers with their smaller ranges and production runs. How many people would pay GBP30 for a brake van? I did yesterday at Warley, but for a kit from a smaller supplier. In general, more suppliers means fragmenting the market and that tends to mean higher prices by losing the cost benefit of the economies of scale. We want more RTR items, even if the models are already available as kits. We want RTR models to be as highly detailed as possible but grumble at the cost, ignoring that fine detail costs. 3D printing doesn't yet produce models of a high enough standard at prices we are prepared to pay. This all pushes the market towards the bigger manufacturers who have the deepest pockets to support the initial design and injection moulding tooling costs which they can recover with multiple production runs producing livery variants. and competition forces them to reduce their costs and the cost to us however they can. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coombe Barton Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 ...I wonder whether the sponsors of F1...who do provide Ecclebum with his livlihood....share his view. Dave Possibly not - judging by the number of Mercedes in our student car park. They're buying them because they're a good investment as they hold price, and insurers like them because they look after them. Or is the F1 supremo saying that about young males - witht he number of young females around and about F1 too many generalisations to count. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Kids are computer savvy and I wouldn't mind betting they tune into Hornby's website regularly. It might be forgotten that generally they disappear from 15 to 25 into a black hole of debauchery and fun where the mention of 'Hornby' would be greeted with "Thats for kids" or worse! In response to someone earlier, yep, the LMS Horsebox is most welcome. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 One piece of news which I don't think has been mentioned - there was a sign on the MSE/Wizard Models stand saying he is taking over Comet Models Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 I can only agree with Torr Giffard's comments in that we are as customers have been for very many years shaping our hobby, but not in the way that he would like to see. We won't pay the prices necessary to support our local model shops. We won't pay the high prices necessary to support smaller suppliers with their smaller ranges and production runs. How many people would pay GBP30 for a brake van? I did yesterday at Warley, but for a kit from a smaller supplier. In general, more suppliers means fragmenting the market and that tends to mean higher prices by losing the cost benefit of the economies of scale. We want more RTR items, even if the models are already available as kits. We want RTR models to be as highly detailed as possible but grumble at the cost, ignoring that fine detail costs. 3D printing doesn't yet produce models of a high enough standard at prices we are prepared to pay. This all pushes the market towards the bigger manufacturers who have the deepest pockets to support the initial design and injection moulding tooling costs which they can recover with multiple production runs producing livery variants. and competition forces them to reduce their costs and the cost to us however they can. ....I make no mention of model shops Keith...I much prefer the limitless expanse/originality potential of the internet. The limitations of injection moulding often mean sacrificing the fine detail which could give a model its true character in the first instance. Why not judge each offering from any manufacturer in terms of how faithful it is to its intended prototype and be prepared to budget accordingly...rather than reward those who make an overpriced codge attempt that vaguely replicates the original? I find it amusing that when comparing like for like between injection moulded and faithfully replicated (areas of) models, no one would choose the usually coarsely moulded product and yet become very defensive when asked why they bought it in the first instance. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
spackz Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 AndyY, Thanks for the photos of the class 05,they're looking very nice. I dont suppose anyone with an interest in the Dapol Class 21\29 had an opportunity to ask the Dapol team to clarify why the CAD is of the Class 21 but model description states the Class 29? Will the the Class 21 variant be first? I did e-mail this question to them a few weeks back but received no reply. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Igor Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 A little OT but following the above comments... I think we could see lots of change very soon. People seem to think the relationship between traditional manufacturers and retailers will never change. Just look at the last year or two as they intrude into each other's territory. There WILL be a reaction. The big question to consider if your are Hornby is do you want to continue a relationship with a direct competitor. Gloves are off... As a shop, I wouldn't want to upset one of my biggest suppliers (by competing with them) for fear of being blacklisted. Could Kermow survive without Hornby and Heljan? (Class 71/small GWR loco) Could Hattons survive without Hornby? (King) I'm pretty sure the public would just find a way of getting their Hornby/Heljan products from other outlets quiet easily ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 A little OT but following the above comments... I think we could see lots of change very soon. People seem to think the relationship between traditional manufacturers and retailers will never change. Just look at the last year or two as they intrude into each other's territory. There WILL be a reaction. The big question to consider if your are Hornby is do you want to continue a relationship with a direct competitor. Gloves are off... As a shop, I wouldn't want to upset one of my biggest suppliers (by competing with them) for fear of being blacklisted. Could Kermow survive without Hornby and Heljan? (Class 71/small GWR loco) Could Hattons survive without Hornby? (King) I'm pretty sure the public would just find a way of getting their Hornby/Heljan products from other outlets quiet easily ... Interesting post Igor and it is a very interesting question, would you sell your products in the home of your competitor. Or put the other way round would your competitors sell competing products in their home when they have their own stock to shift. But on the other hand despite all the issues with Dapol on commissioned products, Kernow continue to sell Dapol products. And Hattons sell both their own LMS twins and the Bachmann version at the same price. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoingUnderground Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Injection moulding is how all mass produced plastic items are made, even the separately added fine detail present on many models these days. The question is whether moulding the items separately and fitting them by hand produces an item that is visually superior to one where the fine detail is part of the larger moulding in the first place, not whether injection moulding in itself is good or bad. Separately fitted detail increases the cost so it's a trade off. I do judge between models. That's why I didn't place my order for the Heljan Metropolitan MetroVic Bo-Bo until yesterday when I could see the pre-production sample for myself. Will I, or most other folks pay the extra for a better model? Depends how much better it is, how much I want it, and whether I can afford it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 ....accurate models will include metal sections in the areas where injection moulding cannot compete/is inadequate. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel_H Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Far easier to make a push pull coach from a RTR BS than what I have done. The old Airfix coaches should be period II but they do not have the bolections. What's a bolection? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel_H Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Was anyone able to get any video of the Hornby running samples they said would be on their stand? Nope. When I was there on Saturday, nothing was running - the DCC unit said 'error' and staff were so busy, they hadn't spotted. Crosti was firmly in its case - which was fair enough as at least you could get a look at it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 What's a bolection? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolection Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel_H Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Has anyone taken any photo's of the Rapido APT-E ? would really like to see some on here if possible please. Some cruddy phone shots here, if they help. Looks better than in the pix. Tasty (and that's NOT the cheese sandwich). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel_H Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Scrum-down! [Hat, check; coact, check; I'm off!] Scrum-down! [Hat, check; coat, check; I'm off!] Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel_H Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Probably not news, this LMS Mallet (spotted in a case on the right-hand side of the Hall 5)...; but now that everything else appears to have been spoken for! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wombatofludham Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 I doubt very much if Hornby or Bachmann could legally stop supplying or blacklist a retailer commissioning "competing" items without incurring the wrath of the competition authorities. It would be construed as anti-competitive behaviour. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold D9020 Nimbus Posted November 23, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 23, 2014 With regard to the mention, several pages back, of the "original" Merchant Navy—Bachmann are doing this in 'N' so it might appear in OO from them at some point—unless someone else beats them to it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted November 23, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 23, 2014 I can only agree with Torr Giffard's comments in that we are as customers have been for very many years shaping our hobby, but not in the way that he would like to see. We won't pay the prices necessary to support our local model shops. We won't pay the high prices necessary to support smaller suppliers with their smaller ranges and production runs. How many people would pay GBP30 for a brake van? I did yesterday at Warley, but for a kit from a smaller supplier. In general, more suppliers means fragmenting the market and that tends to mean higher prices by losing the cost benefit of the economies of scale. We want more RTR items, even if the models are already available as kits. We want RTR models to be as highly detailed as possible but grumble at the cost, ignoring that fine detail costs. I don't disagree with these statements. We've all seen these sentiments expressed on here and elsewhere. There is a saying for that, of course - 'wanting one's cake and eating it'... Well, shame on those who do 'want their cake and eat it'...! If you really want quality, then be prepared to pay a fair price for it, otherwise please shut up with your complaining. And while I'm about it, there's been some talk suggesting that model shops could be superfluous, that we could buy our stuff direct or print it off at home even, for goodness sake!! Just think about that for a moment (while we are focusing just on model railway matters and not the far more serious issues of the wider world) - do you all really want to live in a country where there are even fewer, if any, local model shops? - Don't forget that these are places where you can get various things from more than one manufacturer (all under one roof!), seek advice or help, just have a natter about the hobby (being sociable!! ) and view actual models before deciding to purchase (and even test run your chosen loco, before getting it home and finding out that it runs like a lemon)... Do any of us really want to embrace that scenario?? If you do want to see the UK with virtually no model shops, please just say, and the rest of us can form our own dinosaur's club, where we can gently vegetate without bothering the rest of you so keyed up by the 'white heat of technology'. Anyway, looks like it was a great show, shame to have missed it, but unfortunately it's just a bit too far for a day trip... thanks to everyone who has posted news and photos. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenman Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 ... do you all really want to live in a country where there are even fewer, if any, local model shops? - Don't forget that these are places where you can get various things from more than one manufacturer (all under one roof!), seek advice or help, just have a natter about the hobby (being sociable!! ) and view actual models before deciding to purchase (and even test run your chosen loco, before getting it home and finding out that it runs like a lemon)... Do any of us really want to embrace that scenario?? ... I understand you feel passionately about this, but I'm not sure why you've also chosen to attack those of us who happen to live where, already, there are no model shops. What are we meant to do in your world? Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edcayton Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 I understand you feel passionately about this, but I'm not sure why you've also chosen to attack those of us who happen to live where, already, there are no model shops. What are we meant to do in your world? Paul In what way did the Captain's post "attack" anybody? Why is there so much bad feeling on the forum at the moment? Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted November 23, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 23, 2014 Why is there so much bad feeling on the forum at the moment? I believe it's called "Exeter Effect". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoingUnderground Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 You're too late. It's already a reality in some parts of the UK, such as the South East and London. In NW London where I grew up, Harrow used to have 2 very good model shops, Seymour Models and Harrow Model Shop. Seymour Models went first, when their site was redeveloped. Harrow Model Shop went broke about 5 years ago, despite moving out of Harrow Town Centre to cheaper premises close to North Harrow station. If I still lived there, the Internet would probably be my only option if what I wanted wasn't in Hobbycraft, which is hardly a model shop. The only model shop that I know of in Central London is the LT Museum shop in Covent Garden, and that has a somewhat restricted offering Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
47164 Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Interesting the Hornby thread on the 71....let's hope they don't mess it up with a rubbish pantograph... And perhaps stranger as to why not produce a 74 at the same time ? I have been crying out for one for a long time . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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