News from Warley 2014

[Clive Mortimore]

Is it only me that's happy about the LMS Horsebox?

Hi Lyndonsdad

 

Yes and no.

 

Yes because it looks good and would be a great addition to many a model railway.

 

No because it is not required on either of my layouts.

 

No, I am too. What would they have run with? None of my books seem to have any pictures of them in. Thanks.

Hi John

 

Horse boxes ran as required and would be attached to the front or rear of a passenger train. In later years as the use of horses declined they would more often be seen in trains composed of mainly horse boxes, with a passenger brake or a full brake conveying race horses. Their use slowly petered out and last used in numbers the 1960s.

 

Another use was for transporting circus animals and some were used up to the early 70s on these duties.

[GoingUnderground]

Whether we like it or not, I think we're going to have to put up with seeing retailing of model railways move to the internet almost completely in the next 10 years. Why? Well if you were at Warley yesterday you'll have seen very few kids, and relatively few modellers under 50. The market is inevitably shrinking with the age profile increasing. If the big manufacturers are going to survive, they have to cut costs, and very sadly that means simplifying and probably reducing the number of distributors.

 

This has been happening for decades. The High Street toy or bike shops that also used to sell HD, Triang or Trix trains as well are long gone from when I was a kid. Sadly by reducing the visibility of model railways in the High Street, that started the decline in the hobby. We're now left with the specialist model shops. But they are also going especially in high cost locations where the ycannot generate the profit to pay the rent. They are an extra link and cost in the distribution chain from manufacturer to us.

 

Remember the howls of anguish on here whenever Hornby or Bachmann announce a price rise. So the logical reaction is to try to squeeze cost out of the distribution chain, and that will mean the death of many if not all of the local model shops, leaving only the bigger players/boxshifters and probably the direct internet sales from manufacturers themselves. Corner shop grocers, greengrocers (remember them?), etc have gone, their trade migrating to the big supermarkets chains almost completely as folks vote with their purses and wallets, and our hobby isn't immune from the laws of economics.

 

If we want the hobby to survive longer then I fear we have no choice and are going to have to put up with it. 

[toboldlygo]

No, I am too. What would they have run with? None of my books seem to have any pictures of them in. Thanks.

 

The 4.30 at Sandown Park? 

[298]

....it'll all end in tears because the new money coming into the hobby won't match/sustain the required investment.

 

Dave

Especially when the Junior sector is deemed to be the future, as it ignores a generation between them and the current stereotypical customer. It'll be many years from now until the current Juniors have the space and money to be considered a valued customer...

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

Whether we like it or not, I think we're going to have to put up with seeing retailing of model railways move to the internet almost completely in the next 10 years. Why? Well if you were at Warley yesterday you'll have seen very few kids, and relatively few modellers under 50. The market is inevitably shrinking with the age profile increasing. If the big manufacturers are going to survive, they have to cut costs, and very sadly that means simplifying and probably reducing the number of distributors.

 

This has been happening for decades. The High Street toy or bike shops that also used to sell HD, Triang or Trix trains as well are long gone from when I was a kid. Sadly by reducing the visibility of model railways in the High Street, that started the decline in the hobby. We're now left with the specialist model shops. But they are also going especially in high cost locations where the ycannot generate the profit to pay the rent. They are an extra link and cost in the distribution chain from manufacturer to us.

 

Remember the howls of anguish on here whenever Hornby or Bachmann announce a price rise. So the logical reaction is to try to squeeze cost out of the distribution chain, and that will mean the death of many if not all of the local model shops, leaving only the bigger players/boxshifters and probably the direct internet sales from manufacturers themselves. Corner shop grocers, greengrocers (remember them?), etc have gone, their trade migrating to the big supermarkets chains almost completely as folks vote with their purses and wallets, and our hobby isn't immune from the laws of economics.

 

If we want the hobby to survive longer then I fear we have no choice and are going to have to put up with it. 

 

.....I prefer to think along the lines of our hobby and its suppliers being shaped by its customers....us. We are all 'going to hell in a handcart' if we subscribe to the one or two big manufacturers aping the supermarket approach...instead, why not visualise many manufacturers producing quality products and be prepared to support them. In a hobby like ours we can simply do more modelling in between purchases to spread the cost...it is the 'must have now', box collecting mentality which will undermine standards and fuel the supermarket ethos.

 

Dave

[PaulRhB]

At the other end of the scale a few key components of the L&B tank were on show as Paul noted.

 

H9a.jpg

 

Of course you have to see if they fit together.

 

H9b.jpg

Thanks Andy, I'm assuming from that step between cab and tanks there will be plastic overlays for the tanks and detail.

[TomJ]

I'm not sure you can read too much into the age and demographics of the hobby from a huge show like Warley. It is big, busy and pricier (but great value!) than more local shows. It's the sort of show that people travel huge distances and make a whole day of it.

My lad is 4 and a huge model railway fan. But theres no way I'd take him to Warley for a few years. It's just too crowded for him and he'd hate it. Similarly MrsJ has a passing interest and will often pop into the smaller show for an hour or so.

At the last couple of shows I went to there were a lot more modellers my age (late 30s) and lots of enthusiastic children and families. Warley was probably just too much for some of them

[Brocp]

Hi Andy, no news on the Rails exclusive LMS twins in black?

[The Stationmaster]

 

 

One other point , given the outragev at the suggestion of Hornby selling direct is that both Dapol and Bachmann had large stands at Warley selling their models directly to the public, as they have done for a decade or more  (something which Hornby have never done) - but nobody has a problem with that... 

It's not so much that they are doing it but what they are doing, and the same with Dapol (as I have posted on another thread).

 

In the case of Hornby - now well trodden - but what they have done is not supply pre-ordered stock to a small number of customers but have held it back from the retail trade to sell direct, simple breach of trust with your customers (both retailers and end consumers) plus there appears to have been some sort of tangle with the orders from the factory which apart from anything else sees items manufactured no later than March this year entering the UK retail market in November.  We'll never know the truth of this issue although we can make various, probably inaccurate, guesses but those guesses aren't really relevant when the core issue is lack of trust at the consumer level.

 

The other issue with Hornby is that having sold stock into the trade at whatever price they then go and sell the same stuff direct at lower than trade price - might well be good for cash flow, but again not so good for trust.  But of course I might have a rather old-fashioned view of trust.

 

Bachmann sell new items off their trade stand at shows at the full price apart from the 'tried & tested' returns and other occasional ancient clear outs such as the Tillig points they were shifting very cheaply at a show last year.

 

So on the 'trust' stakes I reckon Bachmann still care about us, the modellers/Consumers and the other two will do whatever it takes to get a few quid through the door when they need to.  But then let's face it - they aren't charities and they have businesses to run and overdrafts to service and information in company reports and available at Companies House can make interesting reading.

[Andy Y]

Hi Andy, no news on the Rails exclusive LMS twins in black?

 

No; Rails don't have a stand there and it would be down to them to release info rather than Bachmann.

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

Especially when the Junior sector is deemed to be the future, as it ignores a generation between them and the current stereotypical customer. It'll be many years from now until the current Juniors have the space and money to be considered a valued customer...

 

...as our vicar says 298..."just get the bodies into church, so that I can talk to them"....there is no such thing as less valuable customers, even if pester power and dads wallet is the mechanism at this stage.

 

Dave 

[The Stationmaster]

Is it only me that's happy about the LMS Horsebox?

No!

[PaulRhB]

Well if you were at Warley yesterday you'll have seen very few kids, and relatively few modellers under 50. .

While I agree the market will shrink I saw loads of kids and younger modellers well under 50 yesterday. Lots of families too though you don't tend to see them so much in front of the big grimy masterpieces but the 'brighter' G scale and Triang crowd pleasers were several deep with lots of kids. There was also a queue of kids waiting to get on the footplate of Bellephron and Talyllyn at various times I passed. Seemed a pretty good show with impressive range of subjects only a little lacking in Continental range for me but certainly not disappointingly so.

[phil gollin]

.

 

Anyway, here are a few pictures up on Flickr of the APT-E. ........

 

.

.

 

Thanks for that.  I love the interior, but where are the sweaty engineers eating their bacon sandwiches ?

 

.

[phil gollin]

.

 

.........   I do wonder why there seems to be a sea change away from livery/class variant changes to having to produce new models of ever more obscure prototypes.

 

.

.

 

Oh, I do so agree.   I am STILL awaiting the final late crest, pristine finish variation of the Hornby T9.   There are so many models where livery/variant combinations can still be produced.

 

In addition, there has only been one run (number) of the BR green 2-EPB from Bachmann and THAT really is a shame.

 

Still, maybe the competition from the smaller outfits will make Hornby and Bachmann think harder about such issues.

 

.

[stewartingram]

Don't know if this has been mentioned before...

Speaking to a Hornby rep yesterday, he stated they were hoping to get the Radial out in "early 2016".

 

I don't expect this is a definitive list, but the "new" announcements I came across were?

 

Adams Radial - Hornby

LMS suburban coaches - Hornby

class 71 - Hornby

LMS Horsebox -  Hornby

USA tank 2x new liveries - Model Rail

47xx - Heljan

GWR Railmotor - Kernow

DMU - Kernow

 

have I missed any?

 

 

Stewart

[The Stationmaster]

Thinking of changing my name to Brian the Robot as this thread seems to veer between the rights and wrongs of selling via various methods to the public and what the original title of this thread is about.

 

Can someone (anyone?) who knows about the actual products (Andy Y excepted as he has enough to do) produce a SIMPLE table that shows Warley announcements regarding what class is being produced and who is producing it (with additional columns if more than one manufacturer is producing the same model)? As someone who is unable to get to Warley, this thread now has no meaning for me, in spite of its title. I had rather hoped to just read a list of new products (with photos) being announced there. A table of all classes (steam, diesel and electric), without personal comment on the merits of each model, would be beneficial, I am sure, to others. If I am asking too much, then the absence of responses will suffice. Of course, if this exists elsewhere, then I am happy to be pointed to that link...

 

In hope?

 

"Confused dot com"

I think it depends how you look at it - which might be what is causing the confusion in your mind, mine, and others.  So the following is what I came across as 'newly announced at the Warley show' - 

 

N.B. I didn't look at Peco or any kit manufacturers (of complete kits that is) but as far as 4mm 00gauge r-t-r items are concerned I think all that was newly announced was as follows;-

 

Heljan:  47xx (GW 47XX that is) - but possibly some way off.  Unless I missed any wagons I don't they announced anything else which is completely new.

 

Kernow: GWR steam railmotor, various liveries; Class 117/118 dmus, various liveries - quite a long list thereof with suitable detail changes to match.

 

Hornby; Adams radial tank, Class 71 SR electric loco, LMS horsebox, LMS Stanier non-corridor coaches (3 variants of), 21 ton hopper - north east of England version

Edit to add - Wooden bodied Transfesa van (thanks Brian - I didn't see that one)

 

Locomotion (NRM Shildon) : C1 atlantic in BR weathered black.

 

Bachmann:  I don't think there was anything

 

Dapol: Again I don't think there was anything.

 

There were of course announcements in the preceding week so we could reasonably add the Hattons 14XX/48XX/58XX to the above list.

 

So in summary - out of what was newly announced there were two potential duplications of other recent announcements (the Adams radial and the Class 71) and one upgrade of a very long on the tooth model already on the market from another manufacturer (Hattons 14XX/48XX, but the 58XX version is completely new).  

 

It might thus perhaps be concluded - be it fairly or unfairly and logically or illogically - that all the recent duplications involve Hornby but that poses the question who is duplicating whom as it really depends where in the development cycle a model is announced and how early in that cycle it is announced.  The Hornby 'King' would appear to have been first but as far as the radial and Class 71 are concerned i would think the jury should stay out a good while yet - but that is purely a personal view.

 

PS Stewart has noted the Model Rail USA tanks which I missed - too busy nattering

 

NOW FURTHER EDITED TO Add link to Kernow's Farcebook page as there seem to be some other items from them as well (scroll down for water tower, very scrumptious,  Helston engine shed, Bachmann AB brakevan, weathered,  - 

 

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Kernow-Model-Rail-Centre/207521425956079

[County of Yorkshire]

.

 

Oh, I do so agree.   I am STILL awaiting the final late crest, pristine finish variation of the Hornby T9.   There are so many models where livery/variant combinations can still be produced.

 

In addition, there has only been one run (number) of the BR green 2-EPB from Bachmann and THAT really is a shame.

 

Still, maybe the competition from the smaller outfits will make Hornby and Bachmann think harder about such issues.

 

.

 

That's the rub isn't it? If Hornby and Bachmann are running scared from the likes of Oxford Rail, Kernow, Hattons and DJModels etc, then it's bizarre. The big two posses an embarrassment of riches, and are the only game in town for a large chunk of most prototypes seen from the 'most modelled' period of 1948-1968. Want a Castle, 28XX or a 57XX pannier? Then you go to Hornby or Bachmann. You want a Coronation Class, a Black 5 and a Jinty? Then you go to Hornby and Bachmann. Read the same for the staples of the LNER, SR and BR too. I really don't see it as that comlex for both Barwell and Margate to annually turn out it's bread and butter items in enough livery, number and detail variations to make consistent sales to the large body of modellers who want to top-up their loco fleets. You currently can't find a new Black 5, Bachmann Hall or Southern Q1 for love nor money, so why aren't these released annually - or at least bi-annually - as 'quick wins'? We know that Hornby can't currently get this right as is seen in the case of the two recent 28xx releases - both were released in a livery other to that as advertised, and both are in an identical livery - you couldn't make it up! The new 28xx tooling is now 5 years old and we still haven't had one released in post-war G-W-R livery - it's not rocket science!

 

I guess what I'm saying is that the big two hold all the cards in this respect, and chasing esoteric prototypes such as the Radial, the P2 and the DoG in order to ward-off would-be challengers to their position is bizarre - no-one is realistically going to challenge the big two on the breadth of their ranges within at least two decades, if ever. I'm not for one minute denying that the P2 and DoG have been good sellers, but how much mileage is there in the tooling? Indeed, will the tooling for theses two locos even amortise itself? Yet on the other hand I don't see a coherent production plan to capitalise upon the wealth of tooling available to them - they're not playing to their strengths! 

 

I personally don't want an Adams Radial, a P2 or the DoG, but that isn't the point. Indeed I may well purchase a Kernow Railmotor but it would only be one, and I can't really justify it. But what do I need multiples of? Castles, Halls, Granges, 57XX's, 43XX's, large prairie's, Toad brakevans, coaching stock that can be re-released annually time and again with different running numbers  - but we don't see them released often enough and I surely can't be the only one to have this sentiment?

 

CoY

[Fat Controller]

You can add one of the wooden-bodied Transfesa vans to your Hornby list, Mike, though I don't think it's at such an advanced stage as the LNER hopper.

[Ravenser]

Aside from the controversies, the Heljan 05s look good, but I won't be replacing my black-liveried Ipswich dinosaur (Silver Fox) as they represent the later batches for the ScR and NE Reg , not the original batch.

 

I'm not in the market for a Met Bo-Bo having no obvious use for one and having wrested with motorising a Street Level Models kit. But Heljan do seem to have done an excellent job on them , and they will run a lot better than a Tenshodo with a bit of card on top. But what they are to pull is a real issue - does even Radley do suitable coaches? I don't think StreetLevel's cardboard Ashburys are going to sit well behind the Heljan model - assuming folk have the patience and resolve to build 3 or 4 as working models for it to haul

 

I saw the L+B castings, and I did rather wonder where they get the motor in

 

The livery samples of the Hornby J15 look very nice, though I'm not competent to judge the detailed accuracy of the model - a class of almost 300 with a 75 year life requires an expert to pass judgement

[Gwiwer]

 

But what they are to pull is a real issue

 

No-one has offered a 4TC but it's not beyond reasonable modelling bounds to make one out of available Mk1s and a few kits.  

 

It only scratches the very recent surface of what No.12 has been tasked with but it's a reasonably quick-win start.

[298]

...as our vicar says 298..."just get the bodies into church, so that I can talk to them"....there is no such thing as less valuable customers, even if pester power and dads wallet is the mechanism at this stage.

 

Dave

 

I've seen at least two specialist societies adopt the same atitude, the worst one completely misreading the demographic of joining members and suffering from the majority of those failing to renew. They should have taken a leaf out of the old tobacco advertisers handbook, "We're not necessarily out to attract new smokers, just help existing ones to change brand"...

[southernelectric]

That's the rub isn't it? If Hornby and Bachmann are running scared from the likes of Oxford Rail, Kernow, Hattons and DJModels etc, then it's bizarre. The big two posses an embarrassment of riches, and are the only game in town for a large chunk of most prototypes seen from the 'most modelled' period of 1948-1968. Want a Castle, 28XX or a 57XX pannier? Then you go to Hornby or Bachmann. You want a Coronation Class, a Black 5 and a Jinty? Then you go to Hornby and Bachmann. Read the same for the staples of the LNER, SR and BR too. I really don't see it as that comlex for both Barwell and Margate to annually turn out it's bread and butter items in enough livery, number and detail variations to make consistent sales to the large body of modellers who want to top-up their loco fleets. You currently can't find a new Black 5, Bachmann Hall or Southern Q1 for love nor money, so why aren't these released annually - or at least bi-annually - as 'quick wins'? We know that Hornby can't currently get this right as is seen in the case of the two recent 28xx releases - both were released in a livery other to that as advertised, and both are in an identical livery - you couldn't make it up! The new 28xx tooling is now 5 years old and we still haven't had one released in post-war G-W-R livery - it's not rocket science!

 

I guess what I'm saying is that the big two hold all the cards in this respect, and chasing esoteric prototypes such as the Radial, the P2 and the DoG in order to ward-off would-be challengers to their position is bizarre - no-one is realistically going to challenge the big two on the breadth of their ranges within at least two decades, if ever. I'm not for one minute denying that the P2 and DoG have been good sellers, but how much mileage is there in the tooling? Indeed, will the tooling for theses two locos even amortise itself? Yet on the other hand I don't see a coherent production plan to capitalise upon the wealth of tooling available to them - they're not playing to their strengths! 

 

I personally don't want an Adams Radial, a P2 or the DoG, but that isn't the point. Indeed I may well purchase a Kernow Railmotor but it would only be one, and I can't really justify it. But what do I need multiples of? Castles, Halls, Granges, 57XX's, 43XX's, large prairie's, Toad brakevans, coaching stock that can be re-released annually time and again with different running numbers  - but we don't see them released often enough and I surely can't be the only one to have this sentiment?

 

CoY

 

Great post. The part of your post I've highlighted in bold I could not agree with more. In answer to the last point (well a question actually) no I don't think you're alone at all in this sentiment. Great that Dave Jones is, for example, offering quite a few livery variations from the get-go with the King model he is producing for Hattons.

 

I've mentioned this to Simon Kohler on a couple of occasions....the bread and butter items are a safe bet so why not just keep making them and bring out some new livery and running number variations every year, they are bound to sell surely?

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

I've seen at least two specialist societies adopt the same atitude, the worst one completely misreading the demographic of joining members and suffering from the majority of those failing to renew. They should have taken a leaf out of the old tobacco advertisers handbook, "We're not necessarily out to attract new smokers, just help existing ones to change brand"...

 

...my approach in no way reduces the significance of 'the backbone' of any society. Unfortunately, fickle potential new members often need something fashionable, eye catching to engage them...it is up to the faithful to convince them to stay in the hobby...once they show the initial interest.

 

Dave

[Oldddudders]

Especially when the Junior sector is deemed to be the future, as it ignores a generation between them and the current stereotypical customer. It'll be many years from now until the current Juniors have the space and money to be considered a valued customer...

A view shared by octogenarian Formula 1 supremo Bernie Ecclebum. He has recently said that he isn't worried whether young people find F1 attractive or not - because they have no money.