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News from Warley 2014


Andy Y

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Some thoughts on what's been announced:

 

The level of duplication is worrying ......The Hornby Radial looks very advanced ....... If Hornby are able to get this to market by next summer , where does that leave Oxford Diecast?  Given that Hornby have been able to spring things on us at very short notice, even in recent years - the 2-BIL being a case in point - the probability that they can get an Adams Radial to market first has to be reckoned with ........ Will there be enough of a market left for Oxford? Oxford have made an announcement , but there seems a strong indication from others that they haven't yet scanned or measured the prototype - they can't therefore have finished the CAD , never mind committed to tooling

 

The 71 is much more evenly balanced since Hornby clearly haven't finished the CAD and I'm surprised they are proposing such a niche prototype . But the question arises whether a crowd-funded project without the ability to scan the real thing will finally come to friution in these circumstances

 

Delays aren't confined to one company of course - at least one of Heljan's railbuses hasn't yet appeared , Dapol's 21/29 project is delayed and uncertain, and they lost the contract for a couple of Kernow commissions , one of which (original NBL Warships) is having a prolonged gestation.

 

Quote edited to address specific points

 

Addressing several points above it is not necessary to have scanned anything to produce an engineering prototype / non-functional show model.  Drawings exist.  Hornby are believed to have access to or possibly hold copies of drawings for a good many items which would have allowed them, for example, to produce a 2-Bil virtually under wraps and a 2-Hal (for which no prototype survives) seemingly as quickly and as quietly.  Both are resectable if not error-free models.

 

The full history between Dapol and Kernow MRC is private.  What is public is that Kernow has reassigned quite a substantial volume of work after little or no progress was made over some time by Dapol.  The results are now coming through much more quickly.

 

In the case of the D600 project again no prototype exists and a large-scale model was first commissioned in order to create the required smaller ones.  That large model is complete, the cad/cam files have been shown this weekend for body samples and we were recently shown bogie frame images on the Kernow website / newsletter.  The project is now well advanced after having been stalled for several years.

 

I believe the market will decide which of the duplicated models does best.  Oxford Rail is an as yet unknown quantity.  We don't know the technical specification of their Adams Radial.  But whether or not they have actually scanned the extant locomotive there are adequate images in the public domain for them to have developed the project to an advanced stage under wraps these past few years.  

 

The 71 is well advanced on both fronts and Dave Jones seems set to go into production with funds already to hand from the crowd-sourcing exercise.  Hornby might be ready to press the button but don't have customer funds up front so theirs is at this stage a more speculative venture. 

 

I suspect quality will win out here.  DJModels will have to trade on quality to last the course.  I have no doubt based upon those items Dave Jones oversaw with Dapol and had on show at RMWeb Live that all his own range and those items he accepts for commissioned production will be of the best quality available at a reasonable price.  And they will be sold through retailers (or by the commissioning retailer alone in some cases) rather than any large PLC making up the rules as they go along.

 

Whether Oxford Rail can match or exceed Hornby for quality is yet to be determined.

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Looking at the excellent photos Andy has posted, the King and the Radial have the tell tail signs of 3D printing prototypes, so maybe not as well as advanced as possibly thought. Although Hornby probably only know when and how well advance it really is.
But the photos are helpful as when I visited today I could tell the king was printed, but the Radial was hard to judge.

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Addressing several points above it is not necessary to have scanned anything to produce an engineering prototype / non-functional show model.  Drawings exist.  Hornby are believed to have access to or possibly hold copies of drawings for a good many items which would have allowed them, for example, to produce a 2-Bil virtually under wraps and a 2-Hal (for which no prototype survives) seemingly as quickly and as quietly.  Both are resectable if not error-free models.

 

The full history between Dapol and Kernow MRC is private.  What is public is that Kernow has reassigned quite a substantial volume of work after little or no progress was made over some time by Dapol.  The results are now coming through much more quickly.

 

In the case of the D600 project again no prototype exists and a large-scale model was first commissioned in order to create the required smaller ones.  That large model is complete, the cad/cam files have been shown this weekend for body samples and we were recently shown bogie frame images on the Kernow website / newsletter.  The project is now well advanced after having been stalled for several years.

 

I believe the market will decide which of the duplicated models does best.  Oxford Rail is an as yet unknown quantity.  We don't know the technical specification of their Adams Radial.  But whether or not they have actually scanned the extant locomotive there are adequate images in the public domain for them to have developed the project to an advanced stage under wraps these past few years.  

 

The 71 is well advanced on both fronts and Dave Jones seems set to go into production with funds already to hand from the crowd-sourcing exercise.  Hornby might be ready to press the button but don't have customer funds up front so theirs is at this stage a more speculative venture. 

 

I suspect quality will win out here.  DJModels will have to trade on quality to last the course.  I have no doubt based upon those items Dave Jones oversaw with Dapol and had on show at RMWeb Live that all his own range and those items he accepts for commissioned production will be of the best quality available at a reasonable price.  And they will be sold through retailers (or by the commissioning retailer alone in some cases) rather than any large PLC making up the rules as they go along.

 

Whether Oxford Rail can match or exceed Hornby for quality is yet to be determined.

Another good question is whether Hornby can match the quality they used to achieve.

 

Re-runs like 'Exeter' appear to match up to their predecessors but recent all-new stuff (Star, 42xx, 72xx, DoG, CotN) has been a bit of a mixed bag with evidence of corner-cutting even in the so-called full fat versions. The 2014 locos now expected in March should give a good idea of the way the wind is blowing. 

 

The Radial? As someone who grew up in Axminster, I'll want three but I'm not going to decide whose until I've seen much more from both/all the protagonists.

 

John

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There seems to be some sort of assumption here that it is Hornby copying and that presenting a 3D print supports this as they could knock one out overnight. To produce a 3D print that good indicates a substantial amount of effort and research and that it is not the result of some management instruction to just bang out 3D prints of competitor products made at the drop of a hat. There also seems to be an assumption that if there is duplication then it should be the big players (be it Hornby, Bachamann or even Heljan with their GWR steamers) who should throw in the towel and give the market away. Why?

 

I am in agreement with the comments of Alf's Boy on this one. To be clear, I do not like the trend towards having to pre-order and I do not like restricted sales via a manufacturer web site only. If Hornby do make a transition to being a web based direct seller personally I think it'd be terrible for the hobby. All that said, people should be consistent, it is not very consistent to wax lyrical about the virtues of suppliers applying this model and to see them almost as saviours of the hobby and then to castigate others if it is felt that they are moving that way.

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I am in agreement with the comments of Alf's Boy on this one. To be clear, I do not like the trend towards having to pre-order

 

I'm not a great fan but then there have been so many things over the years that have suddenly come out that, by the time I've saved up for them, they're sold out everywhere (blue/grey 2-EPB anyone...?)  Whereas at least I know that as I've put my pre-order in for my Kernow Thumper then if I put £x back per month by the time it's due out next year I have enough put aside for it.  Similarly with the 117 announcement from Warley, I'll be pre-ordering one of those two so I can adjust my model spending appropriately so I have enough put aside by the time both are available.

 

I know these days it's easier to know when things are coming out but still it's easy to miss, or forget until it's released.  It also gives the manufacturers a guarantee that the model is actually viable and profitable, and that shops aren't going to get stuck with dead stock (I recently picked up a bargain Hornby 59 on impulse from a local model shop that's been sat in the cabinet for at least 7 years).

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It is getting a bit like top trumps

Hattons announce King- Honby announce King

Oxford Rail announce Adams Radial- Hornby announce Adams Radial

Kernow announce CL 71- Hornby may be announcing class 71

You can bet your bottom dollar that when DJMs J94 and 14xx near release Hornby will re- run theirs..

There are still lots of prototypes that would be very popular, how many more 0-6-0/0-4-0 steam and diesel locos are there to do?

There are plenty of SR. moguls,, there is 18000, GT1 and that is off the top of my head.

Duplication is inevitable in some cases, but I wonder how much of it is deliberate to undermine others announcements.and that fruition is a lot further away than the manufacturer would like us to believe.

If the Hornby King falls behind it will fall into the same timeframe as the Hattons King and potentially lose any advantage by earlier release.

There are some interesting trends evolving in the model railway world, time was when you had a choice of Tri-ang or Hornby Dublo, as time has gone along it has until relatively recent still been the case that the big manufacturers have ruled the roost. Now we have a lot more commissions and smaller manufacturers wanting a piece of the cake, where is it all going?

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So no news at Warley on an 07 diesel then?

 

No, I was expecting something but it seems that an assumption that they'd use the 05 chassis to move that way was off the mark.

 

Any news from Heljan on the Metropolitan Bo Bo.

 

The updated EP sample has some of the best bogie detail I've seen on any 4mm loco which captures the weight of the bogies very well with a degree of finesse to all those bolt-heads.

 

Met1.jpg

 

 

Any news on the Heljan stand other than the 47xx, have they got any decorated/EP samples of the O2 or Class 05?

 

I snapped a couple of 05s and they do look particularly good with some of the best executed fine detail we've seen from the Danes but the interesting thing is that it potentially marks a move away from the 'one size fits all' approach to moulds with different slides for cab-end windows and radiator grilles.

 

05a.jpg

 

05b.jpg

 

05c.jpg

 

05d.jpg

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Thinking of changing my name to Brian the Robot as this thread seems to veer between the rights and wrongs of selling via various methods to the public and what the original title of this thread is about.

 

Can someone (anyone?) who knows about the actual products (Andy Y excepted as he has enough to do) produce a SIMPLE table that shows Warley announcements regarding what class is being produced and who is producing it (with additional columns if more than one manufacturer is producing the same model)? As someone who is unable to get to Warley, this thread now has no meaning for me, in spite of its title. I had rather hoped to just read a list of new products (with photos) being announced there. A table of all classes (steam, diesel and electric), without personal comment on the merits of each model, would be beneficial, I am sure, to others. If I am asking too much, then the absence of responses will suffice. Of course, if this exists elsewhere, then I am happy to be pointed to that link...

 

In hope?

 

"Confused dot com"

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Without that retail sector, and pre internet, there'd be no Hornby.

 

Seriously. Think that's the most ridiculous statement yet and there's a lot on here recently. Without Hornby there would be no retail sector at all pre internet and probably post!

There will be more people who buy Hornby trains and run them on 2nd radius curves and train set track than twice the amount of people on this forum.

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I had a very enjoyable day at Warley.  I was there till they chucked us out at six.  Someone on one of the threads asked about the Rapido APT-E, I can't find the post now.  Topic search is pants and doesn't appear to work.

 

Anyway, here are a few pictures up on Flickr of the APT-E.  Sorry about the average quality and high ISO setting.  I ordered one pretty much straight after it was announced.  The engineering sample looks very good.  It needs to be 'riveted' and the fit and finish is not as it should be, but it looks mighty fine to me.  Just need to wait the 12 months till delivery...

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/trickymundo2009/sets/72157649018203278/

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Some very nice new models on show here. After a couple of quietish Years on the new model front, reading through this thread one almost gets the feeling that there seems to be some panic on the manufacturers part to produce brand new models. Why? Is this an attempt to inject some life into a stagnating market?

I have people crying out to the manufacturers to produce various liveries on blue era diesels, but every Year passes with no announcement of them. Suits me as business is growing at an alarming rate! I do wonder why there seems to be a sea change away from livery/class variant changes to having to produce new models of ever more obscure prototypes.

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Heljan's Catfish and Dogfish could tempt me the 7mm way as much as any loco.

 

Dogcat.jpg

 

At the other end of the scale a few key components of the L&B tank were on show as Paul noted.

 

H9a.jpg

 

Of course you have to see if they fit together.

 

H9b.jpg

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Seriously. Think that's the most ridiculous statement yet and there's a lot on here recently. Without Hornby there would be no retail sector at all pre internet and probably post!

There will be more people who buy Hornby trains and run them on 2nd radius curves and train set track than twice the amount of people on this forum.

Not sure I follow that. Hornby and others in the manufacturing business in olden times distributed their products nationwide to dealers who sold them to us. The 2nd radius curves etc. were bought in the High Street. Thus the dealer network was what helped Hornby to make its money and grow. Now they are, at least for certain big-ticket/low-availability items, seeking to cut out the dealer/middle man.

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Think that's the most ridiculous statement yet and there's a lot on here recently.

 

It isn't if you stop to think about it, but I do note that you've posted some acidic comments since 'joining' a group of 'anti everything to do with RMweb' people.

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It isn't if you stop to think about it, but I do note that you've posted some acidic comments since 'joining' a group of 'anti everything to do with RMweb' people.

That comment has nothing to do with any other group I may or may not be a part of.

 

You can honestly state that model retailers would have got through the 70/80s and 90s if Hornby did not exist?

It isn't if you stop to think about it, but I do note that you've posted some acidic comments since 'joining' a group of 'anti everything to do with RMweb' people.

That comment has nothing to do with any other group I may or may not be a part of.

 

You can honestly state that model retailers would have got through the 70/80s and 90s if Hornby did not exist?

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There also seems to be an assumption that if there is duplication then it should be the big players (be it Hornby, Bachamann or even Heljan with their GWR steamers) who should throw in the towel and give the market away. Why?

There's a media driven viewpoint in this country that 'big business' is automatically evil and small companies are somehow virtuous just because they only employ 12 people.

 

Hornby are still a pretty small firm, but seem to be viewed by some on this forum as a vast organisation of IBM/Lockheed-Martin/BAE proportions. So they are automatically wrong, evil and trying to force everyone else out of business. 

 

Pete

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Re Pete's post 198 above

 

...I'd steer more towards wanting to see larger manufacturers grow through merit/originality, rather than using their weight to undermine smaller ones/replicate their projects.

 

I'll certainly be supporting smaller manufacturers with quality products, for this...if no other reason. Our hobby will be richer and better for having as many manufacturers as possible producing quality/value for money models.

 

Dave

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