CAF to build new LHCS for Caledonian Sleeper

[phil-b259]

Such a service will never be specified as part of a franchise. DfT has no interest in marginal Welsh constituencies, and TfW has neither the clout nor the cash to fund a loss-making component of such an operation.

 

The displaced stock is at the end of its design life anyway, so for the majority, scrap beckons.

There has been talk by the Scottish Government of using the displaced stock to try out a south west - Scotland sleeper service. This has merit because no new stock is needed which would otherwise make any trial a non starter.

 

Up untill privatisation BR ran such a service but it was awkward to fit it into the franchise setup - and in any case it was very much the view that sleeper services were a thing of the past by the DfT.

['CHARD]

There has been talk by the Scottish Government of using the displaced stock to try out a south west - Scotland sleeper service. This has merit because no new stock is needed which would otherwise make any trial a non starter.

 

Up untill privatisation BR ran such a service but it was awkward to fit it into the franchise setup - and in any case it was very much the view that sleeper services were a thing of the past by the DfT.

 

Now, TS - that's a different proposition.  

 

However, unless it's very keenly priced, it faces some domestic short-hop air competition - or does it?  Presumably the far west airports have ceased trading over the past decade or so?

[Reorte]

Now, TS - that's a different proposition.  

 

However, unless it's very keenly priced, it faces some domestic short-hop air competition - or does it?  Presumably the far west airports have ceased trading over the past decade or so?

Plymouth's gone (and was mostly used for flights to London anyway). Don't know about others.

[woodenhead]

I suppose you can try all sorts when you've got free stock to play with but whilst I can see the tourist and business benefit of linking the north of Scotland with London I am not so sure of the traffic between Scotland and the South West.  Although if it was a choice between a Voyager for hours upon hours or a bed I suppose it would look attractive.

[Zomboid]

There was also talk of a far north sleeper that doesn't leave Scotland. That would be an interesting proposition, though who knows if it would really work, it's not exactly a high population density up there.

[Reorte]

There was also talk of a far north sleeper that doesn't leave Scotland. That would be an interesting proposition, though who knows if it would really work, it's not exactly a high population density up there.

Maybe they could all just live on the train

[frobisher]

There was also talk of a far north sleeper that doesn't leave Scotland. That would be an interesting proposition, though who knows if it would really work, it's not exactly a high population density up there.

That's not the trade you're tapping into there, it's the tourist traffic to Orkney. It would make getting the 08:45 Scrabster ferry a better option if travelling without a car as you'll not need to throw a B&B/Hotel into the equation, and the same would apply going back the way. I'm presuming that the one train would cover Edinburgh, Glasgow, Stirling, Perth and Inverness and maybe you'd have the time to route it via Dundee and Aberdeen as well? Or maybe in the latter case, you run two short trains and run Glasgow/Stirling/Perth -> Inverness, and Edinburgh/Dundee/Aberdeen/Elgin -> Inverness and join the two there to head North?

[Ron Ron Ron]

Now, TS - that's a different proposition.  

 

However, unless it's very keenly priced, it faces some domestic short-hop air competition - or does it?  Presumably the far west airports have ceased trading over the past decade or so?

 

 

Plymouth's gone (and was mostly used for flights to London anyway). Don't know about others.

 

 

Flights to Newquay from Scotland are seasonal and tend to be on weekends.

Flybe offer an all year round connection via Manchester.

 

Exeter has year round, daily flights from Glasgow and Edinburgh.

There are other daily connecting flights via Manchester.

 

Other than the far SW airports, there are a dozen flights each day from Scotland to Bristol.

From Edinburgh and Glasgow, the flight takes just over 1 hour and from Aberdeen, about 1 hr 15 mins and is cheaper than rail.

By train (Cross Country) takes just under 6 hours from either Edinburgh or Glasgow to Bristol.

Plus another few hours to get to Cornwall.

 

.

[Steadfast]

Being able to catch a sleeper from Bristol rather than London opens up potential market of South Wales, Gloucestershire, Somerset, Wiltshire etc without the need for potentially pricy connecting trips to London. Say a Plymouth start (contract to service at Laira?) with a call at Bristol could potentially create lots of custom I reckon. I'd look at using it if I went to Scotland for sure

 

Jo

[Zomboid]

Getting the crayons out for a moment, if the possible far north sleeper is for tourists, it could run closer to weekly, and then (don't know about journey times within Scotland) one set of stock could be based in Edinburgh (for example) and run to the south west on Mon & Weds, returning Tues & Thurs, and then run the far north on Friday, returning Saturday, and then Sunday is free for routine maintenance.

 

Probably compete nonsense of course, but it's fun to think about these things. Edinburgh to Thurso is probably a looooong run...

[newbryford]

Being able to catch a sleeper from Bristol rather than London opens up potential market of South Wales, Gloucestershire, Somerset, Wiltshire etc without the need for potentially pricy connecting trips to London. Say a Plymouth start (contract to service at Laira?) with a call at Bristol could potentially create lots of custom I reckon. I'd look at using it if I went to Scotland for sure

 

Jo

 

Going O/T.

There used to be a Bristol-Glasgow/Edinburgh with a split at Carstairs. As it had a decent amount of seated coaches it was great for an overnighter on an all-line rail rover. IIRC, it saw the last regular use of a couple of the XP64 Mk1's.

 

Cheers,

Mick

Edited January 19, 2018 by newbryford

[cal.n]

Getting the crayons out for a moment, if the possible far north sleeper is for tourists, it could run closer to weekly, and then (don't know about journey times within Scotland) one set of stock could be based in Edinburgh (for example) and run to the south west on Mon & Weds, returning Tues & Thurs, and then run the far north on Friday, returning Saturday, and then Sunday is free for routine maintenance.

 

Probably compete nonsense of course, but it's fun to think about these things. Edinburgh to Thurso is probably a looooong run...

 

Remember Serco also operate North Link ferries from both Aberdeen and Scrabster, so expect any far north line sleeper to line up with ferries, although I expect this to be the case the case whoever the franchise holder is. There could be joint advertising/combined tickets for both Aberdeen and Scrabster ferries.

[Mark_A]

There has been talk by the Scottish Government of using the displaced stock to try out a south west - Scotland sleeper service. This has merit because no new stock is needed which would otherwise make any trial a non starter.

 

Up untill privatisation BR ran such a service but it was awkward to fit it into the franchise setup - and in any case it was very much the view that sleeper services were a thing of the past by the DfT.

50,000 passengers per year in its last year of operation...

 

Mark

[frobisher]

Getting the crayons out for a moment, if the possible far north sleeper is for tourists, it could run closer to weekly, and then (don't know about journey times within Scotland) one set of stock could be based in Edinburgh (for example) and run to the south west on Mon & Weds, returning Tues & Thurs, and then run the far north on Friday, returning Saturday, and then Sunday is free for routine maintenance.

You'd not need the full 16 carriages (of the new service) for this in any case; loadings are not that heavy and I very much doubt Thurso could cope with anything like as long a train as that in any case, maybe 8 coaches would be the limit? Then you'd have two half sets of 4 if you split the service (though via Aberdeen might be quite a long trek). Given that CS will be retiring the existing 4 (I think?) rakes in full, there's plenty of potential stock to play with.

 

But you'd want a daily service to Thurso, especially in the summer when the ferries (both from Scrabster and especially Gills Bay) are packed to capacity a lot of the time. I suspect given Caledonian Sleeper is run by Serco, and Northlink Ferries (out of Scrabster) are too, the clear opportunity exists for a one-stop ticket purchase all the way to Orkney.

 

Probably compete nonsense of course, but it's fun to think about these things. Edinburgh to Thurso is probably a looooong run...

About 6 1/2 hours all in (via Perth), as against London Aberdeen at about 8 hours.

 

Via Aberdeen would be about 9 hours...

 

Glasgow to Thurso would be about 8 hours, so all very doable as a sleeper service.

[cal.n]

 

If you plan to offer an RTR mk5 coach, speak now or forever hold your peace

 

It has taken an evening and a half to get this far and while obviously not complete, I think I have finalised the shape. I have based all the minimum printing dimensions for a print in 4mm. Only having 2 good quality photos of this coach to work from, its not easy to scratchbuild an entirely new coach. Hopefully the details will get easier as more photos start to appear. If there are any major flaws so far, plase let me know.

 

Sorry if its a bit O/T (not prototype), but the knowledge on here should improve the model.

Edited January 20, 2018 by cal.n

[caradoc]

Given the low population density north of Inverness, plus the low carrying capacity of sleeper coaches, such a service to Wick/Thurso could never, ever, cover its costs through fare revenue. So would the Scottish Government be prepared, and indeed able, to provide the hefty subsidy from public funds it would need ?

[Mad McCann]

Where there’s a will. Holyrood is pretty good when it comes to supporting such stuff.

 

D4.

[jjb1970]

Given the low population density north of Inverness, plus the low carrying capacity of sleeper coaches, such a service to Wick/Thurso could never, ever, cover its costs through fare revenue. So would the Scottish Government be prepared, and indeed able, to provide the hefty subsidy from public funds it would need ?

Good question, given some other government spending it'd be far from being the most profligate use of public funds. Equally it'd be a fair question to ask whether a sleeper train is the most appropriate way of supporting connectivity with the North. I'd actually like to to see it happen as I love sleeper trains but from a purely rational perspective they're a bit of an anachronism. This isn't just in this country, sleeper trains seem to be dead or struggling in most of Europe.

[Legend]

That's not the trade you're tapping into there, it's the tourist traffic to Orkney. It would make getting the 08:45 Scrabster ferry a better option if travelling without a car as you'll not need to throw a B&B/Hotel into the equation, and the same would apply going back the way. I'm presuming that the one train would cover Edinburgh, Glasgow, Stirling, Perth and Inverness and maybe you'd have the time to route it via Dundee and Aberdeen as well? Or maybe in the latter case, you run two short trains and run Glasgow/Stirling/Perth -> Inverness, and Edinburgh/Dundee/Aberdeen/Elgin -> Inverness and join the two there to head North?

But I think this would only work for the tourist trade and therefore be seasonal. To get people on the train it would need to be like Royal Scotsman service . The train would need to be the reason for using that mode of transport, otherwise the best way of getting there is by air .

[jim.snowdon]

My recollection is that many years ago, probably about the time of privatisation, plans to do away entirely with the network of UK sleeping car services met with considerable and vocal opposition from the Scots, to the extent, I think, that the issue got as far as the House of Lords. The result was that the Anglo-Scottish services had to be retained, and as far as I can recall, these services have been separate from the WCML franchise, at least. Where the only other remaining sleeper service, to and from Cornwall, fits in this I am not certain.

 

As a breed, sleeping car services are expensive things to run and with the growth of high speed rail services in Europe are getting commercially unattractive, hence their gradual demise.

 

Jim

[jjb1970]

As well as high speed rail the expansion of low cost air travel has hammered overnight trains I think. A couple of years I asked about using the Caledonian sleeper to go to Aberdeen as I thought it'd be much nicer than flying and maybe avoid an overnight stay in Aberdeen and the response I got was that flying was a fraction of the cost and that if I wanted to avoid an early start it was still cheaper to fly me up the day before and put me in a hotel. 

[frobisher]

As well as high speed rail the expansion of low cost air travel has hammered overnight trains I think. A couple of years I asked about using the Caledonian sleeper to go to Aberdeen as I thought it'd be much nicer than flying and maybe avoid an overnight stay in Aberdeen and the response I got was that flying was a fraction of the cost and that if I wanted to avoid an early start it was still cheaper to fly me up the day before and put me in a hotel.

It makes a lot more sense the other way around, 'cos London...

[frobisher]

Given the low population density north of Inverness, plus the low carrying capacity of sleeper coaches, such a service to Wick/Thurso could never, ever, cover its costs through fare revenue. So would the Scottish Government be prepared, and indeed able, to provide the hefty subsidy from public funds it would need ?

Could be - there would be sufficient public service reasons to do it; Getting MSPs to Holyrood, servicing Dounraey (there's a steady flow of contractors/employees going to and from Edinburgh, normally via hire cars), and the new tidal power project I presume will be similar.

[frobisher]

But I think this would only work for the tourist trade and therefore be seasonal. To get people on the train it would need to be like Royal Scotsman service . The train would need to be the reason for using that mode of transport, otherwise the best way of getting there is by air .

The air fares to Orkney are somewhat eye watering (from Edinburgh) compared to those to London (including City...) plus air isn't the best way for the tourist to get to Orkney. Via the Scrabster ferry gets you the iconic view of the Old Man of Hoy which you're hard pressed to do almost any other way and the sea crossing is part of "the experience". Air travel is for those who need to get there quickly or who don't like boat crossings (for whatever reason...).

[Bob Reid]

Tourist traffic generates a lot of income and shouldn't be underestimated - especially down the East Coast.  When I worked for GNER they went a great lengths to explain that a very high proportion of the company revenue was not from business passengers (it's a lot cheaper to fly from London to Edinburgh never mind North of Inverness) but from tourist traffic.  These days if the service is available and the cost is reasonable folk will still use the railways...