MarkC Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 There's a video I've seen of Tornado pulling away from Durham after a scheduled stop, southbound, with 13 on. Not a hint of a slip as she did so either - but perfect conditions for her. A warm July evening, dry rails etc. Nevertheless, I would think that there was still a collective sigh of relief on the footplate as she topped the bank & accelerated away past Relly Mill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenw Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 Its remarkable (almost unbelievable) that they could achieve such a change of culture in just 4 or 5 weeks. Agreed, but then they were 'co-operating' with NR over the issues relating to last year's steam ban, or at least were until they tired of it. Still don't know whether to be pleased, as a steam fan, or worried, as a professional, will wait and see on that one. The other week at **** depot, I heard that 'B' were operating one of WCR's trains after 'A' who'd initially been approached to took a look at their stock and replied 'we're not touching that' (don't want to name names here) Seems even harder to believe there's been such a rapid cultural change, from the top down, having read comments attributed to WCR senior management in the latest 'Rail'. Still putting Wooton Bassett down as an isolated incident and saying they're working with NR to put measures and systems in place to prevent this error happening again - WRONG! - such systems should already have been in place to prevent this happening in the first place! They're also complaining of NRs previous refusal to lift the ban as putting Western Scotland's economy at risk if the Jacobite can't run, and threatening the the future of mainline steam. Arrogant as it was up to them to comply with the requirements of what should have already been in place before the suspension could be lifted. Wonder how long there 'co-operation' with NR will last this time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenw Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 This matter seems to have been resolved, see http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/statement-network-rail-revoke-west-coast-railways-suspension-notice Hardly, there's still the matter of the ORR review into withdrawing there Safety Licence, and investigating possible criminal proceedings Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenw Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 There's a video I've seen of Tornado pulling away from Durham after a scheduled stop, southbound, with 13 on. Not a hint of a slip as she did so either - but perfect conditions for her. A warm July evening, dry rails etc. Nevertheless, I would think that there was still a collective sigh of relief on the footplate as she topped the bank & accelerated away past Relly Mill Yes, perfectly possible of coarse, as you say, in perfect conditions, but in a location such as this there's a massive difference between this and, as I posted earlier, the abysmal conditions on the evening concerned, which were more like the worst possible. The conductor driver was also highly critical of the support crew in the immediate aftermath, describing them as going running about unorganised, inspecting and starting work on the offside of engine, before the opposite line had been stopped and cautioned. This at a point on a blind bend with an 80 mph speed limit. I was on one of the northbound services subsequently cautioned past, the signaler saying the driver having reported them as 'being all over the place' when getting the line cautioned. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
acko22 Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 Not read Rail so cant talk word for word about thier quotes but if thats thier attitude I think sadly it will only be a matter of time before NR call time on WCR. As for long term if they do get banned who is going to take over steam?? As much as WCR have messed up they have the infustructue there for the business ready to go unlike anyone else at the moment anyhow. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 Not read Rail so cant talk word for word about thier quotes but if thats thier attitude I think sadly it will only be a matter of time before NR call time on WCR. As for long term if they do get banned who is going to take over steam?? As much as WCR have messed up they have the infustructue there for the business ready to go unlike anyone else at the moment anyhow. Likewise I haven't read Rail... As a theoretical argument - I would suggest that if WCRC were to cease operating for any reason, at some point in the future, assets they currently use but which they don't own could fairly quickly be taken on by other operators, I would also foresee most assets that WCRC do own which had a use either being leased or sold to another interested operator. WCRC do appear to have a longstanding and viable business, and there is clearly a major market out there, so whilst there may be short term chaos in the charter industry (as there has been with this hiatus), in the longer term I think the sector would bounce back as soon as others could fill the void. My personal opinion here is the biggest "threat to steam" overall is a reputational one (does the rest of the industry trust they are operating safely) - and as KENW wrote above that damage is down to WCRC's own actions... FWIW I *DO* hope that they have upped their game and will operate safely and efficiently for many many years, bringing joy to many people - but I think it's all theirs to lose if they don't manage to make that change... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Reorte Posted May 13, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 13, 2015 and saying they're working with NR to put measures and systems in place to prevent this error happening again - WRONG! - such systems should already have been in place to prevent this happening in the first place!Why the "WRONG!"? We already know something was wrong, that's why they were stopped. Given that of course they should be putting systems in place. We're talking about fixing a problem and moving on from there, not that it was there to begin with. What else should they be doing now? "WRONG!" that it ever came to this, "RIGHT!" that the correct efforts are being made to change it and prevent its recurrence. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted May 13, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 13, 2015 WC would never have held the license in the first place without the paperwork being complete, it's the management system being proved to be using it that was quoted. So very easy if this was isolated to bring it up to scratch if it had slipped. They had warnings and as they couldn't produce paperwork in time specified they were suspended until they could. If WC feel they have a justified grievance then they can submit it to the ORR. The press 'should' check that has been submitted before printing the story Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bon Accord Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 The conductor driver was also highly critical of the support crew in the immediate aftermath, describing them as going running about unorganised, inspecting and starting work on the offside of engine, before the opposite line had been stopped and cautioned. This at a point on a blind bend with an 80 mph speed limit. I was on one of the northbound services subsequently cautioned past, the signaler saying the driver having reported them as 'being all over the place' when getting the line cautioned. Hardly surprising they were "all over the place" having just borne witness to what had been done to their loco. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted May 13, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 13, 2015 WC would never have held the license in the first place without the paperwork being complete, it's the management system being proved to be using it that was quoted. So very easy if this was isolated to bring it up to scratch if it had slipped. They had warnings and as they couldn't produce paperwork in time specified they were suspended until they could. If WC feel they have a justified grievance then they can submit it to the ORR. The press 'should' check that has been submitted before printing the story Paul, a timely contribution. Uninformed speculation / opinion-offering never helps. Take it from us in the industry that WCR mean business, and mean to stay in business. They are completely serious about staying compliant. The noises I am hearing are positive and optimistic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 That sounds very promising! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 After all that has happened, would NR really have lifted the suspension if they weren't absolutely satisfied that everything was squeaky clean and beyond reproach in all relevant ways? I can't see anyone in NR being prepared to sign up otherwise. The comment regarding putting measures and systems in place must relate to the rolling out to cover the gradual resumption in operations. They wouldn't be operating now unless the procedures relevant to that current operation were in place and the people involved in it were fully briefed and trained. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted May 13, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 13, 2015 Take it from us in the industry that WCR mean business, and mean to stay in business. They are completely serious about staying compliant. The noises I am hearing are positive and optimistic.Nice to hear that too. I'm not particularly surprised their MD is being bullish in the press, at the end of the day you don't create a business like that without having a pretty strong 'vision'. Nice to see the regulation side standing up as it should though and enforcing the limits in a dignified way, not that the press will remember the times they do. On a purely personal note the railway needs strong characters to drive it on to the limits and keep it vibrant for business and pleasure. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted May 13, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 13, 2015 Paul, a timely contribution. Uninformed speculation / opinion-offering never helps. Take it from us in the industry that WCR mean business, and mean to stay in business. They are completely serious about staying compliant. The noises I am hearing are positive and optimistic. Tim, as always your points and comments are completely factual and spot on. My one worry is why did it take till now to be 'serious about staying compliant'? They've been around a long time now in a business where not being compliant can mean people not going home. As I say, that's my concern. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
locoholic Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 WCR mean business, and mean to stay in business. I'm pleased that the steam charters are running again - the list of cancelled trains on the uksteam website was very depressing. However, I do wonder about the long-term viability of the business, particularly regarding the life-span of their Mk1 & 2 coaching stock. The last few trips I've been on have used stock that was starting to look rather tired. This must affect the perception of their passengers, and eventually the structural integrity of the vehicles. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted May 13, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 13, 2015 Wasn't unfamiliarity a contributor to the Blue Peter incident? And a similar incident where a Western driver managed to damage 60114 when playing with it at Worcester shed? At least I copped it at New St when it finally worked its way home. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 Refreshing mark 1 and 2 coaches is quite easy (and cheap in the grand scheme of things) but they need to get their monies worth out of the current interior, although a quick clean and tidy wouldn't go amiss on some of them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenw Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 Why the "WRONG!"? We already know something was wrong, that's why they were stopped. Given that of course they should be putting systems in place. We're talking about fixing a problem and moving on from there, not that it was there to begin with. What else should they be doing now? "WRONG!" that it ever came to this, "RIGHT!" that the correct efforts are being made to change it and prevent its recurrence. Sorry, I should have said that the Rail issue was obviously to press before the suspension was lifted. Comments regarding the press reporting however, the quotes attributed to WCR were from their own press release. The WRONG was. as I said, WCRs apparent still arrogant attitude, still putting WB down as an isolated incident and saying they were working with NR to put systems in place to prevent a recurrence, and saying that NRs (then) refusal to reinstate their track access would put Western Scotland's economy 'in danger' if the Jocobite was unable to operate, when these were actually systems which should have already been in place (or being used) to start with to prevent this incident happening in the first place, and which were their responsibility to comply with. They also claimed their absence from the mainline charter scene would mean an end to main line steam running. Wrong again, although they have the majority (90%) there're not the only operators of main line steam, so severe curtailment yes, but not the end totally, and as Glorious NSE wrote, others could step in to take there place. Such attitudes, like I said, make it harder to believe in the cultural change expected, and they do have history of 'co-operating' with NR over safety issues and the reneging on their commitments, as in the case of last year's 'steam ban' relating to failures to get safety-critical instructions to train crews. As to NRs requirements to lift the suspension; 1 Introduce .. driver monitoring regime that includes proactively using analysis of On Train Data Recorder downloads Introduce?? - something we've had since we've had OTMR!! and understand to be Railway Group Standard, or don't RGSs apply to Charters? 2 Demonstrate .... temper-evident seals for train-protection isolator cocks err, that's been a rule book requirement probably since AWS was introduced! etc etc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
acko22 Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 They manage to refurb Mk 1 and 2 stock on preserved railways so mainline wouldnt be an issue. The only issue with older stock will be keeping them inline with modern safety requirements, like anything there will be a stage when using older stock will be unviable. Until then long may the older stock be used. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenw Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 Hardly surprising they were "all over the place" having just borne witness to what had been done to their loco. Not when they're "all over the place" on a main line which is still open for normal running! Even the driver shouldn't be examining his train on the main line without first having the adjoining line stopped and trains at least run past under caution. These days it'd be more likely stopped altogether. The conductor driver's opinion of them, when I saw him later, wouldn't be repeatable on here, and he was a fairly senior man of long experience, but if there'd been another train coming the other way before he could intervene and get to phone the signaler, several of them wouldn't have been going home. As I said earlier, this was on a blind bend with an 80 mph linespeed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobby Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 There's a lot of talk about the "management" of WCR and how they've got to get their act together and make sure that their paperwork is up to date and (I assume) all their operational staff are fully compliant... But... As a working Guard most of the time I am on my own, as are my drivers, our Management have to TRUST us to do our job correctly and according to the Rules, they cannot be out there all the time watching over us... From what's been said there have been issues earlier which lead to the suspension and it would seem that NR are satisfied that the paperwork and training is now up to date.... However I can't help feeling that the incident which finally lead to the suspension was not down to the Management or the paperwork but simply the behaviour of the traincrew. So this constant reference to the "management" getting their act together seems to ignore the fact that the crew in that case ignored the Rule Book and so must shoulder much of the blame. If it turns out that the crew thought that they could really do what they did at WB then it's a failure of the System in a big way but I just can't see that they would have not been trained up on EWS and TPWS and what to do when they go wrong (or they think they've gone wrong), that seems far to basic to have been missed when being passed out... I accept that this can be seen as "speculation" at this point until we've had the full report of the WB incident, but I also feel that blaming the "management" for everything as some people have done is exactly the same for the reasons I have stated... Sometimes it's the "management" at fault, sometimes the "worker", sometimes both (which I feel is the case here)... Rather than continue as we are perhaps it's best to wait for the WB report to see who really was to blame? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted May 14, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 14, 2015 I know what you mean Hobby and it's a minefield of rumour and knowledge but it's also the visibility that the management are dealing with the crew in question appropriately. It will involve action plans etc and a review of past performance being visible to NR. If WC can provide that backup then they take legal responsibility for those actions and consequences as NR did with Moreton on Lugg. Many in the industry and here are aware of various rumours flying but this is dealing with the legally provable facts, behind closed doors at present so we cannot be sure unless it's taken to court if the rumours have any substantial basis. Ken quoted a conversation but, playing devils advocate here, did the witness report it for investigation? The responsibility lies equally on those witnessing events deciding if they feel it should be reported too and confidential reporting is available through CIRAS. I've had conversations where people reported stuff to me that they think X happened. My response was well who saw it and wouldn't you expect them to know what they saw unless you have no faith in their competence? On reporting it higher I was told that's a serious allegation to which I agreed but said I couldn't condone it happening if it was deliberate. The investigation was thorough and came down to a simple coms error that a new member of staff challenged once but not the second time as 95% was repeated correctly. Myself and two other managers listened to it and all agreed the same best action and legally put our names to it. No one lost their job but we did identify a weak point in the repeating back process especially with new vs established staff who they thought must have got it from the rest being correct. We now use that as an example for new staff to stick to it and not be intimidated by 'experience'. OTMR and comms recordings can be directly accessed for a period afterwards depending on the cycle of the recorder and much of NR's are kept archived long term needing only location and date to find them. If people have concerns relevant to any incident then they can provide that info to be investigated. This isn't intended as patronising or 'teaching to suck eggs' but: On the Operations side, NR and TOCs, we are often portrayed as well paid for an easy job but it's making those decisions when it goes wrong and taking the very serious legal responsibility for it that justifies it. It's a judgement call if you are a direct witness and feel something is truly dangerous and not being addressed then it's not snitching but protecting you and the public, also I'd encourage anyone hearing the story from those witnessing it to consider pointing out the same. Edited to correct person quoted. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PhilJ W Posted May 14, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 14, 2015 Not really. I was working as a studio and location director for the BBC in 1986 when the Michael Lush tragedy happened. A member of the public was killed in a fall while rehearsing a bunjee jump stunt for Noel Edmonds Late Late Breakfast Show and it turned out that there wasn't even a safety officer at the location. After that, attitudes to safety were turned around incredibly quickly. Any producer or director who hadn't completed new basic safety training within I think three or four weeks wasn't allowed to work in studios or on location until they had. This prevented programme bosses from claiming that their production staff were too busy to take a day or two out for the training. It was followed up fairly quickly by new procedures such as having to complete a hazard assessment for every job and some absolutely brilliantly produced multi-media training. The training was useful but the real change was in attitudes. The shock of realising what had happened in the accident on that programme and then thinking about what could have gone wrong on some of our own productions was a real wake up call. Safety just stopped being something you could leave to the technicians. As I recall the 'expert' employed turned out to have no qualifications or experience whatever. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobby Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 Paul, I wasn't reporting a "conversation", I was commenting from what was said in the initial NR report which it says the info was taken from the equipment. I don't know what happened on the footplate that lead to the isolation of the equipment, however I believe to blame management "shortcomings" as some people are misses the point that actually it could be that the footplate crew were fully compliant and just ignored the Rules in this case (as happened at that incident in East Anglia)... What I'm saying is that there's been an awful lot of speculation and blame directed at the Management of WCR on forums and in the press but it could be the case that the actions of the crew were their own and not due to any shortcoming in training or assessments and I feel that speculation about what WCR Management did or didn't do would be better halted until we get the full report. Mud sticks. Blair Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 However I can't help feeling that the incident which finally lead to the suspension was not down to the Management or the paperwork but simply the behaviour of the traincrew. Balancing that - it's not just one single one-off incident that's caused the suspension though (look at the other links up-thread, several of which pre-date Wooton Basset) - which point to the story being about wider issues than just one "rogue crew". I'd suggest that how an organisation is managed can directly affect how it's employees approach doing their jobs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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