talyllyn1 Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 I've been following this post with interest as I have several Comet sides for Porthole and other post war coaches in my stash, some part completed on Airfix bodyshells. However last night a fellow member of the UMRC passed a print out of Bachmann's latest planned offerings and there are 6 Porthole coaches listed. Yet again the curse of kit builders strkes! It's to be hoped that Bachmann make a better fist of "flush glazing" than Hornby have managed on their Staniers. In my opinion the best attempt has been Bachmanns' MK1s and they have been around for some time now. I tend to agree with Coachmann that nothing beats the look of a well made brass-sided coach. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forward! Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 Best of luck with the move. Reminds me of my last one. Car crammed with the most precious items. Boxes of models - wife not too impressed! I made the very same mistake when moving last year. NEVER put all your modelling stuff in one car load because suddenly a 'modest collection' of models suddenly looks like you've ram-raided a local hobby shop... Thanks for posting your efforts on the porthole stock. Not my region (or scale), but I enjoy this 'joined up' modelling of passenger stock. Will Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 Some porthole stock had the older style of sliding vents - such as this one. This photo also shows the deeper sides, extending below the top of the buffer beam. From what I can establish from photos, it seems that only the brake thirds were like this. There was an overlap in terms of coach styles as some vehicles of the diagrams that preceded the porthole stock appeared after the first of the porthole stock, such as this SK (formerly TK) built by BRCW (I think) around 1950, at roughly the same time Metro-Cammell were building the porthole version of the SK, and after the first porthole stock had appeared (the all-steel CK). Incidentally at least one D2123 vehicle made it into blue/grey. HMRS have a photo in their collection which I had published in Model Rail a few years ago. Also, look closely at the first vehicle of this train. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
talyllyn1 Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 Going slightly off at a tangent, does anybody know the load limits for the various ex LMS brakes? I've got "LMS Coaches - an Illustrated History" by Jenkinson and Essery, but cannot find a mention anywhere. I'm talking here about the BR applied "Load X Tons Distributed". I took a guess at 3 tons for the Porthole BTK, but I'd like to be certain for future builds. It obviously varied according to the vans capacity - for instance the open (or vestibule) brakes had a particularly small van, so would be about 1 ton? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
talyllyn1 Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 In the absence of photos i stab at a guess depending on the size of the luggage section. Anything from 1 to 3 tons. Trouble was the weight lettering was often below the clip board and was tarnished. In anycase the lettering is so small in 4mm. If a guess is good enough for you Coach, then it's certainly good enough for me! Cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 It was and only the corridor brake thirds. It was as if the LMS was aware that these vehicles needed to be stronger to withstand forces in 'incidents'. The sides were welded to the chassis and overlapped the floor. The idea of building stonger brake thirds from 1937 onwards may have come from seeing how the D1730 'All-Steel' brake thirds had stood up in accidents. The latter are easily identified in photos, often at the head of trains even in BR days. Intriguingly, the open brake thirds weren't welded. Thanks for the explanation. I wonder if Bachmann will notice? Odd that they did not use the same approach on the porthole brake firsts, which were also to be found at the ends of trains. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 The porthole open firsts had unusual roof vents, which look as though they would be more at home on a Mark 2c. Any idea why? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Stafford Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 Did the Diag 1969 CK have the same end profile as the porthole CK. I ask as I have the 247 etches for the former and Comet for the latter. The 247 ends have the later profile, but my Comet kit has the standard ends which are clearly wrong and it looks like some cross kitting will be called for or at least a second set of 247 CK ends ordered. Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Robertcwp : There is no explanation for the unusual roof vents in the Jenkinson & Essery coach books. Thanks - the vents look similar to those used on some DMUs, such as Park Royal Class 103. The rebuilt first open with loose chairs M7555 also had them, mixed in with shell vents. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
talyllyn1 Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Did the Diag 1969 CK have the same end profile as the porthole CK. I ask as I have the 247 etches for the former and Comet for the latter. The 247 ends have the later profile, but my Comet kit has the standard ends which are clearly wrong and it looks like some cross kitting will be called for or at least a second set of 247 CK ends ordered. Dave. You need to be aware that the Comet roof extrusion is something of a compromise - being used for most,if not all, of their kits. The ends are profiled to suit. As far as I can tell it is a sort of "half way house" betwen the true shape of LMS/GWR roofs and BR Mk1 roofs. Don't know about 247 Dev. ends as I've never ordered any. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Stafford Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Larry, Talyllyn. Thank you very much for the information. It looks like the simple expedient of swapping end etches between the two will most likely be sufficient then. Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Stafford Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Thanks Larry. I believe I may have a suitable donor vehicle lurking somewhere! Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 July/August 1949 Railway Magazine had a two-page article on the all-steel CK, with an ex-works photo of the first one, M24500, in unbranded LMS livery with BR Gill Sans numbers at the left-hand end. I have seen a photo of M24520 also in unbranded LMS livery, but with right-hand number in LMS style, with M prefix (smaller than numbers) and a Gill Sans 1 on the door at the first class end. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timara Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 With regard to roofs, it might be worth using a DC kits mk1 roof, which is also rib-less, making use on the D2159 perfect. Cheers, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Back to the porthole open first, but still with roofs, looking at the photo in the Jenkinson/Essery book and also at a couple of 1960s colour photos showing the other side of the vehicle, and looking from slightly above, it appears that there is a row of ridge dome vents on the roof, as well as the flatter type. Were there three rows of vents, ridge dome down the centre line and flatter ones down each side? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark54 Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 The flat vents were first seen on D2118 12-wheel Dining Car No. 7555 that was rebuilt in after the war. 7555 was an 8-wheel dining car (which is probably what you meant Larry). There was a D2120 12-wheel kitchen/dining car rebuild No. 43 which also appears to feature the flat roof vents. Both rebuilds feature shaped tables, loose chairs and other fittings very similar to the 1951 Mk1 open dining cars. Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 7555 was an 8-wheel dining car (which is probably what you meant Larry). There was a D2120 12-wheel kitchen/dining car rebuild No. 43 which also appears to feature the flat roof vents. Both rebuilds feature shaped tables, loose chairs and other fittings very similar to the 1951 Mk1 open dining cars. Mark Having had another look at the photos, I think that on the porthole FO there were ridge dome vents down the roof centre line (possibly about 9, though one of these might be the tank filler) and seven flat vents on each side, with the third and fourth from the toilet end being closer together than the others. Also a torpedo vent over each lavatory compartment. A similar layout to 7555 but possibly not quite the same. I hope Bachmann can get hold of some good information on the porthole stock as the more you look at them the more complex they become. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Looking at photos of the porthole brake thirds, 26668 and 27017 (the latter being one of the last to be built) were both from lots constructed at Derby and both had the old, wider style of sliding vent. 27050 built at Wolverton had the later, narrower pattern, as did the CKs built at Derby. I have yet to find any photos of porthole stock other than brake thirds with the older style of window. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 I don't think you will. The windows we sometimes call postwar type with narrower sliding window units actually appeared in 1939 on the two types of rebuilt brake composites. The fact that the wider type appeared on the last of the brake thirds more or less bears out what i said earlier about using up as much as possible from stores during the difficult days of rationing. I believe metal was being released for new bus construction while the railways were some way down the pecking order... I hope this discussion is not wasted, as by the time it is brought to a conclusion, we will have done Bachmann's research for them. There was also a batch of CKs built with non-opening bodylights on the corridor side - see second vehicle in this train. Jenkinson/Essery Vol 2 Plate 131 shows a TK with what appear to be non-opening bodylights too. All probably due to post-war shortages of materials. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Your picture is interesting as I wasn't aware this extended to composite coaches. There seem to have been quite a few composites with non-opening body lights. Here is another. And another behind the Fairburn tank. Plate 65 in R J Blenkinsop Echoes of the Big Four shows the roof of a porthole BFK and FO pretty well - the latter confirmed as having three rows of vents, the flatter sort either side and shell or ridge dome (can't tell) down the roof centreline. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stuartp Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 I have a 'no-vent' CK to do, there was (at least) one trundling up and down the Kirkcudbright branch until (at least) 1963. All the pics Robert has posted and all the ones I've seen all show the corridor side. I presume the compartments had vents fitted, it would have got pretty sticky otherwise. Most of the pics I have were taken in July, and it's noticeable that the door droplights are fully down in most of them ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
topaz-r Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Back to the porthole open first, but still with roofs, looking at the photo in the Jenkinson/Essery book and also at a couple of 1960s colour photos showing the other side of the vehicle, and looking from slightly above, it appears that there is a row of ridge dome vents on the roof, as well as the flatter type. Were there three rows of vents, ridge dome down the centre line and flatter ones down each side? Yes, there were three rows of vents. There is a good roof view of the porthole first involved in the Harrow accident here:http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/MoT_Harrow001.pdf. topaz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
boogaloo Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 re above post, #295, use http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/MoT_Harrow001.pdf and go to page 31. HTH Boogy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 A rather unfortunate way of clarifying the roof layout, even though not all the roof is visible. Several porthole coaches were lost in the accidents at Weedon in 1951 and Harrow 1952, though I believe that the FO at Harrow survived and was restored to traffic. FK: 1123 and 1125 withdrawn following Weedon derailment 1951; 1124 withdrawn following Harrow & Wealdstone collision 1952 BFK: 5070 believed withdrawn following Weedon derailment 1951 BTK: 26856 and 26896 withdrawn following Harrow & Wealdstone collision 1952 CK: 24683 withdrawn following Harrow & Wealdstone collision 1952 Several other porthole coaches were in the trains involved but survived. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted March 16, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 16, 2011 I see according to this mornings MREmag,Bachmann are asking for anyone with colour photos of the porthole stock to get in touch.This will help with producing the crimson / cream versions. http://www.mremag.com/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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