Hornby B12

[Hilux5972]

My apologies Bertiedog. I thought it was an incorrect photo to try and show the B12 was in fact correct.

[Pint of Adnams]

I can't think of any 'basic howlers' in the L1, B1, B17, K1, O1, J15 or D16 models, all of which I have several of and often think back to the days when the availability of such locos ready to run was beyond the wildest pipe dreams, and the only way to have models of them was to build them from kits. Which I did, but the locos I produced were to nowhere near the standards of these beautiful models! As for the "other B17" comment, I don't understand the relevance since this thread is about B12s which are completely different locomotives, including the driving wheels! Let's just wait and see what actually turns up in the shops before we start jumping to conclusions.

The J15 and it's 'horizontal' handrails along the boiler? D16 with the lack of valance lining? Both possibly resulting from production process limitations, but the former is a stand-out error.

[MikeParkin65]

It always strikes me as funny what we modellers will complain about compared to what we will turn a blind eye to. There is potentially a small discrepancy on the form of the wheel on this model. Yet many who are now bemoaning this will have layouts that have no scenery, unpainted un-ballasted track on shiny plastic sleepers, loco's whizzing around with no crew, DCC sound with no steam or smoke etc etc. .

 

The Hornby B12 will undoubtedly be the best model of this class ever made to date. To my eyes, from where I normally view it. it will look exactly like a B12. Close up, through my 1.50 reading glasses I will marvel at the level of detail, the painted finish, the whole finesse of the thing. Running on the layout it will look amazing. I won't for a minute worry about all of the unfinished parts of my layout (see 1st paragraph!) and those white foam board shapes I have knocked up to represent the structures that will one day be made will still look like a station and parcels yard to Pendon standards in my minds eye. 

 

Given that life is short and 99% of kit built models I have seen would cause apoplexy if released by a RTR manufacturer I am grateful that manufacturers take the risk of producing RTR models of obscure prototypes to remarkable levels of fidelity for less than the price of a kit that I could never build.

[HOTTODDY]

It always strikes me as funny what we modellers will complain about compared to what we will turn a blind eye to. There is potentially a small discrepancy on the form of the wheel on this model. Yet many who are now bemoaning this will have layouts that have no scenery, unpainted un-ballasted track on shiny plastic sleepers, loco's whizzing around with no crew, DCC sound with no steam or smoke etc etc. .

 

The Hornby B12 will undoubtedly be the best model of this class ever made to date. To my eyes, from where I normally view it. it will look exactly like a B12. Close up, through my 1.50 reading glasses I will marvel at the level of detail, the painted finish, the whole finesse of the thing. Running on the layout it will look amazing. I won't for a minute worry about all of the unfinished parts of my layout (see 1st paragraph!) and those white foam board shapes I have knocked up to represent the structures that will one day be made will still look like a station and parcels yard to Pendon standards in my minds eye. 

 

Given that life is short and 99% of kit built models I have seen would cause apoplexy if released by a RTR manufacturer I am grateful that manufacturers take the risk of producing RTR models of obscure prototypes to remarkable levels of fidelity for less than the price of a kit that I could never build.

Hear hear!! How refreshing to see such a post. I can understand (and have made adverse comments too) about some of the big QC issues, but the plethora of comments regarding the wheel centres/ flared spokes is IMO relates to about 2% of the whole model PICTURE!! Let's wait until December to evaluate a proper and realistic critique, when we can get our grubby paws on the actual MODEL.Oh and what happened to the 50 foot rule? 

Happy modelling to you all,

 

Tod

[Derekstuart]

Well, I did it. I read the whole thread.

 

Those wheels make it completely unrecognisable as a B12. For a while it was a toss up between calling it a model of a Royal Navy Battlecruiser, a small Scottish highland castle or an Isle of Wight car ferry.

 

Then I saw the label and realised there was a steam locomotive attached to those wheels.

Sarcasm over, this thread has encouraged me to buy one- just to wind up the morally outraged here.

[bertiedog]

The trouble is we should not turn a blind eye to these issues, there were people in the 1970's who turned a blind eye to the cars made, (if that's the word), at BL, and look where that led......to oblivion. The cars worked, well on a good day, but rusted, held water in un-drainable caches in the bodywork, had miserable electrics, and required post sales servicing to keep them on the road, fading paint, loose windows, ill fitted doors, loose seat mountings, and weird styling.

 

Now models are no where as important in life, but the progress in standards has been a long slog over about 60 years. Tri-ang's defence was that they did not make scale models, but toys....but at least they strove to provide better and nicer products.

 

The problem was if you looked abroad the standards were higher, even an avowed toy maker like Marklin was offering more scale appearance, and as usual the British were "grateful" to makers to have anything. The US market was years in advance, they adopted standards, and stuck with them, a constant struggle to improve and better the products.

 

In the UK the trade just toddled along, with makers upping the game very slowly. Some Makers like Peco are very careful, slow but steady.

 

But with Hornby these days it is a game of jumping about, one minute they are getting plaudits for a model, and the next is back to the flaws eliminated on the one given plaudits. Once they adopted handrails, all was well and good, but then they mount the improved handrails at an angle.

 

They put finer wheels on locos, then fitted the middle wheel with a different diameter and flange, instead of springing it...or issued Pacifics with a flangeless bogie wheel.

 

The B12 has had final appearance photos published, the face of the wheel is nothing like the real wheel, it is a mistake, a problem, and should be resolved by the wheels being scrapped and refitted with decent ones and the designer or specifier of the mistake shown the door..........If they had a British factory it could have been spotted in production, the progress halted and rectified in a few days, but with the Chinese it will take months of work to correct and cost a fortune to do, not worth it basically, and yet again muggins is left with a poorer product.... And let me make it quite clear, it is not the Chinese who are at fault, it is the managers in the UK who are slipping up, not checking work, not following through the checks needed before it is shown to the public.

 

I was looking forward to the loco, in every over way it is accurate enough for me, but the wheels are so basic, just why does this happen? Do they employ enough staff, are they experienced enough? some thing is at the heart of this, and it is not just the B12, but affects in one way or the other many of the products.

 

Stephen

[Derekstuart]

Stephen, you make very good points. Constructive criticism is always a good thing, as you have wisely shown.

 

But some of the comments some have made are a little bit extreme.

 

Having said that, if I am completely honest, I hold the Bachmann Brush 4 and the Hornby ('new') HST in similar contempt- otherwise good models let down by a few silly mistakes, so perhaps I am being hypocritical.

[bertiedog]

Well, I did it. I read the whole thread.

 

Those wheels make it completely unrecognisable as a B12. For a while it was a toss up between calling it a model of a Royal Navy Battlecruiser, a small Scottish highland castle or an Isle of Wight car ferry.

 

Then I saw the label and realised there was a steam locomotive attached to those wheels.

Sarcasm over, this thread has encouraged me to buy one- just to wind up the morally outraged here.

I love the sarcasm,  but the design of the LNER loco involved was noted for it's wheels, they are very distinctive, a prized extra to ordinary wheels, commented on in most articles in reference books about the design of the B12. It would be like leaving a dome of a GWR Loco, or fitting a grossly wrong shape, it is part and parcel of the look on the class, praised even by experts on the real locos at the time they were made.

 

As a commercial builder in the past, I often had to try to make people overlook the shortcomings of the wheels made, there were no alternatives. It too some pressure to "sell" the models.

 

But slowly things changed, makers like Sharman and Gibson matched the wheels, and Hornby followed suit in a more modest way, so progress was made. Most of Hornby's offerings have the correct wheels within what can be made at the price, but the B12 is not one of those, it is plain wrong at present.

 

If Hornby relent and change the wheels it will hopefully be a salutary lesson to them, and they can write in letters of fire on the design office wall, Do not do this again! Lesson taught, lesson learnt.

 

So far the new 040 Peckett coming soon has bypassed any problems like this, so why slip on another model.( And yes, I am aware that very knowledgeable RM members have commented the Peckett wheels are not quite "right", but not to the scale of difference that the B12 has. The comments were in the main to do with whether the wheels could convert to 18mm usage etc ).

 

Stephen.

[toboldlygo]

First BR Green-gate, then Knob-gate and now wheel-gate..

 

One thing worth noting for those who haven't been around RMWeb for a long time (unlike others who remember it as cave paintings) - it is unwise to upset the LNER Mafioso, you may wake up with the severed smoke-box of an A2/2 on the pillow beside you. 

 

It could be far worse than that however, you could wake up in the Bulleid Re-education centre in Guantanamo Bay or in a field surrounded by sheep wearing nothing but nothing but a pair of wellington boots - but they are other regions 

[MGR Hooper!]

Why Hornby? Why? The spokes really???? How could you Mr. Hornby? How could you?

[MikeParkin65]

I love the sarcasm,  but the design of the LNER loco involved was noted for it's wheels, they are very distinctive, a prized extra to ordinary wheels, commented on in most articles in reference books about the design of the B12. It would be like leaving a dome of a GWR Loco, or fitting a grossly wrong shape, it is part and parcel of the look on the class, praised even by experts on the real locos at the time they were made.

 

As a commercial builder in the past, I often had to try to make people overlook the shortcomings of the wheels made, there were no alternatives. It too some pressure to "sell" the models.

 

But slowly things changed, makers like Sharman and Gibson matched the wheels, and Hornby followed suit in a more modest way, so progress was made. Most of Hornby's offerings have the correct wheels within what can be made at the price, but the B12 is not one of those, it is plain wrong at present.

 

If Hornby relent and change the wheels it will hopefully be a salutary lesson to them, and they can write in letters of fire on the design office wall, Do not do this again! Lesson taught, lesson learnt.

 

So far the new 040 Peckett coming soon has bypassed any problems like this, so why slip on another model.( And yes, I am aware that very knowledgeable RM members have commented the Peckett wheels are not quite "right", but not to the scale of difference that the B12 has. The comments were in the main to do with whether the wheels could convert to 18mm usage etc ).

 

Stephen.

I respect what you are saying BUT i have been a railway enthusiast since as far back as I remember (which is my Dad running down with me to the crossing across our road as we heard the whistle of the demolition train going up and down the Hull to Hornsea branch) and I can honestly say I have never considered LNER wheels or any others to be 'distinctive'. I am not saying they aren't. I am just saying I have never noticed, so i come back to its all in the eye of the beholder.

 

Those like me will live with it, those that like the model but not the wheels will source replacements. Those that can't do either won't buy one.

[stewartingram]

What happenned to the 3ft rule, and layout loco. Much as I'd like it to be 100% right,these principals still apply. You only have to look at Tony Wright's LB and Gilbert's PN threads. I don't think that I am insulting either by saying they both have compromises, but what a fine overall result they have achieved. I will certainly be buying a couple. If the wheels do seem too bad to me there are alternatives available. And we haven't even seen the model yet!

As for BL producing rubbish, my 1st car was an Austin A30, 12 years old when I got it at 90k miles. I ran it over 250k. Yes it had rust and needed repairs, but all cars of that age did (1955. I taught myself self-reliance on repairs with it and still practise that.  I've stuck with the marque since, through changes of name - Morris Marina, Morris Ital, Rover 827 Sterling (3 of them) and now Rover 75. Each successive one was better than the former ones. I have a book in my collection describing the history of the company and its model developments. It was way ahead of the game and became a victim of political pawn. I usually find that those who knock the cars are going on media reports; I've had a number of people in my 75 who don't recognise the model when they get in. A brief ride later they enthuse over it, until I actually tell them what it is.

Aren't people funny in their attitudes towards things?

 

Stewart

Each to their own I say, I know what I like and more to the point, actually ENJOY it.

Edited October 19, 2016 by stewartingram

[Bernard Lamb]

A lot of it goes back to a comment I made a long time ago.

Hornby do not seem to have a set of procedures.

This shambles will continue until they take on board a Quality Manager and a Quality Auditor and give them the authority to bang a few heads together and get all people in all departments working to similar procedures and checking all new models to a common standard at all stages of production.

It is really quite simple, it is a job I managed to hold down for most of my working live, so it can't be that difficult. It is only a matter of common sense and holding your ground. It will very quickly prove it's worth and will actually save them money.

My own pet gripe is that they can be so good with cab fittings that are hardly visible, but then get them wrong between models of the same class. A procedure of depicting the most basic version, thus allowing those who choose to be more accurate to add the missing items would be far better than choosing at random what to include, as it is far easier to add detail than to take it away. Q6 and J15 being two frustrating recent examples.

Bernard

[Pint of Adnams]

One thing worth noting for those who haven't been around RMWeb for a long time (unlike others who remember it as cave paintings) - it is unwise to upset the LNER Mafioso, you may wake up with the severed smoke-box of an A2/2 on the pillow beside you. 

Not for nothing were so many of those fine locomotives named after horses

[bertiedog]

The BL I referred to was the1970's. not the the Austin Morris era, indeed I still have an A35 car in the garage, and the Mini was no failure! But Wilson's government forced mergers, supported the Unions against the company, and the design team went off the plot! By the Marina it was downhill at speed, fueled and plagued by the extremists. There never was a way back, they had moved so far from what the Japanese offered that, return was impossible. It dragged down Jaguar, and Rover, and suddenly no UK makers left.

This is not going to happen to Hornby on the basis of one model, but should flag up warnings that all is not well in the design dept., and management of projects.

 

I doubt if it is done, but it needs senior Hornby staff in China 24 hours a day monitoring the production, and picking up issues as they come up.

 

There also seems a culture of trust in the CAD systems, which however good, need interpretation from the data to the solid. I found that out in instrument design, where a rival said that the work done by hand was a waste of time. They supplied samples of the cheaper product, and we got them tested by the BS lab procedures. Some parts were so badly fitted together that they had added packing. Investigation showed they took the CADs own interpretation of tolerances, and applied it to all dimensions, most of which were designed as close fit no tolerance.

The result was a mess, from an accurate design it ended as a pile of parts that barely fitted. The first excuse they used was that it had been tested in the software...........

 

On direct experience of scanning and locomotives, I saw one being scanned at the NRM, with the same type of Leica equipment that we used at work, and had supplied parts for. I chatted to the operator, and he extolled the virtues of the system, how it could capture curves and patterns so easily, and then by taking a further scan offset it could generate the 3d information for structure.

I noted that the scanner was about half height of the loco, and asked how a top scan was taken,and he said none was needed. The software could interpret the shape of the tank top without any problem, the scanner could even see the filler caps.

 

But I asked about the gap between the tank back and the barrel, and he said "is there one? I had not noticed" The gap was there, but the scanner was blind to it, and the operator unaware of it at that point.

 

With good grace I will admit he said that they checked over the loco with photos as well, and the missing gap would have been picked up, but..........he had not noticed the water tank fillers were oval, and the tank top was in three sections, the middle slightly lower to make overlap joints, nor the bracing straps to the boiler.

 

It did not instil me with much confidence that the results would have been better than photos and a steel rule..

 

The shot shows completely how the bosses are very distinctive on the Locos, the spokes elegantly curve up the sides of the boss, which was larger than normal to give good fit to the axle. The raised boss was possible as there are no outside cylinders to line up with.

 

Stephen

[MGR Hooper!]

I'm sorry, these are the last! I promise

 

 

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

All this worry about spokes when they've got the boiler and firebox wrong. 

 

 

 

To be honest it's an elemental mistake that should have been sorted out in the design stage. I know next to nothing about LNER locomotives, but I did some simple research when I got one of those GBL models with a view to detailing and motorising it. Even bought the correct wheels from Alan Gibson. That was put on hold because this model was announced. They may now go under a PDK version as I quite fancy a "hiker" instead.

 

 

 

If these things don't bother you because it looks like a B12 and it doesn't really matter as you can't see it from 5 foot away, then there are plenty of Railroad versions knocking about already. But we're talking about a £160 model. It should be correct at that price. I think it's one of those "once seen, never forgotten" things. So I can understand the disappointment that some are feeling.

 

 

Jason

[Derekstuart]

This has made it onto the BBC news this evening.

 

Apparently there is a bit of a campaign starting in Aleppo, Syria about the Hornby B12 wheels.

 

(I say that with a sense or irony, not disrespect).

[Bernard Lamb]

This has made it onto the BBC news this evening.

 

Apparently there is a bit of a campaign starting in Aleppo, Syria about the Hornby B12 wheels.

 

(I say that with a sense or irony, not disrespect).

Don't start on that one.

The only thing that reached that part of the wold was AFAIK a Stanier 8F and they had bevelled rims.

Just look at the mess with RTR trying out various interpretations of that.

Bernard

[Steamport Southport]

Don't start on that one.

The only thing that reached that part of the wold was AFAIK a Stanier 8F and they had bevelled rims.

Just look at the mess with RTR trying out various interpretations of that.

Bernard

 

So did GWR Dean Goods.

 

 

But that's another thread.....

 

 

 

Jason

[Rshakes3]

I`m not sure I should jump here but as a ‘model railway’ enthusiast with a keen interest in the LNER I would not have realised the error with the drivers on the B12 until it was raised. However what I`d like to raised is what coaches should 8573 be in charge of? Hornby have a number of non-corridor Teak’s either available or in the pipe line now but I`m not aware of any plans to produce any Gresley 1^st or 3^rd corridor Teak coaches in the foreseeable future. There have been a number of pre war LNER loco’s released in the last few years but no suitable Gresley Teaks to go with them.   

[micklner]

I`m not sure I should jump here but as a ‘model railway’ enthusiast with a keen interest in the LNER I would not have realised the error with the drivers on the B12 until it was raised. However what I`d like to raised is what coaches should 8573 be in charge of? Hornby have a number of non-corridor Teak’s either available or in the pipe line now but I`m not aware of any plans to produce any Gresley 1^st or 3^rd corridor Teak coaches in the foreseeable future. There have been a number of pre war LNER loco’s released in the last few years but no suitable Gresley Teaks to go with them.   

 

God now the restart of Tumblehome Gate!! .  

 

Look on EBAY for coaches there are plenty there at a price.

 

As to B12 wheels I wouldn't have noticed either . People expect too much on r.t.r models its called being made to a price . Oh god Price Gate now !!  

[31A]

I`m not sure I should jump here but as a ‘model railway’ enthusiast with a keen interest in the LNER I would not have realised the error with the drivers on the B12 until it was raised. However what I`d like to raised is what coaches should 8573 be in charge of? Hornby have a number of non-corridor Teak’s either available or in the pipe line now but I`m not aware of any plans to produce any Gresley 1^st or 3^rd corridor Teak coaches in the foreseeable future. There have been a number of pre war LNER loco’s released in the last few years but no suitable Gresley Teaks to go with them.

 

The non gangwayed coaches would also make quite a suitable train for a B12. Both B12s, and non gangwayed coaches, were widely used on secondary main line and cross country trains in LNER days.

[Derekstuart]

Presumably someone, somewhere, sometime, somehow, will have converted one of these to P4. I am told that the spacing behind the splashers to put in full length axles, rather than the 4ft 1in gauge that it has as standard, is quite limited.

 

I am looking for one of these now, but if what I was told earlier proves to be correct then I will not only have to replace the wheels but the chassis and bodywork too. It will be then be named- "LNER- Trigger's Broom"

[Hilux5972]

Hornby replied to my post on their Facebook page.