Bachmann DBSO driving brake second open

[stationroad]

10 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Its probably worth dissecting that point…

The big three have the largest share of the market, and all three have, independently, raised prices substantially in a short time.

 

However, they have unique overheads behind that..

 

Hornby has a legacy of losses it needs to cover.

Bachmann has a constraint on supplier (Kader).

Heljan appears to have dual shipping (Denmark, then to UK, plus UK distributors).

 

All the rest of the suppliers seem to coalesce around a similar price point… Accurascale, Dapol, KR, Pi, Revolution, cavalex, hattons.. even Oxford Rail (Which is owned by Big H).

 

I cant imagine the factory cost being significantly different for any manufacturer, indeed the larger three should be able to entice volume discounts, and weight of economy of scale if anything.

 

The one to watch imo is Dapols class 59… Lets see if they can hold its £154 RRP (£136 discount) price tag* 

 

* (Ive left a note in my will to my heirs to check the price upon its eventual release in the future, just incase its gestation outlives the  life expectancy of a normal healthy middle aged man).

Agree - at the risk of derailing - the smaller/newer companies also don’t have the overhead of as many ancillary staff - with a small company you don’t really need full time HR, finance, legal, layers of management, a large office/warehouse, people to run it etc. - Bear in mind that every new hire costs salary, plus employer PAYE, more insurance, equipment, space in the office etc. - it all adds up very quickly. As an outsider looking in - a lot of the smaller companies seem to be formed of a small group of deep specialists rather than a wide group of business generalists*. The need for those people will likely come, one way or another, as the companies grow. 

 

*Hattons probably the exception here, but they already run a large retail business

 

I do find the comparisons to other products a bit of a moot argument - AFAIK Deltics weren’t used at the other end of Anglia services or on the back of National Rail test trains, so it’s not really an alternative option. If you’re not going down the kit/conversion route, then Bachmann is the only game in town for a DBSO. 

 

I have a 59 on preorder for 120 quid, I’m not hopeful I’m going to get away paying that though!

 

 

 

 

[Andy Mac]

12 hours ago, sanspareil said:

 

 

Well lets see what the future brings, 2025 and £300 Bachmann DBSO's.........never say never!

 

Just browsing the Accurascale pages and notice you can get 5x TPE MK5 top spec coaches including a MK5 'DBSO/DVT' for £225! That in the modern world has to surely be the greatest 'bargain' in an era of insane prices?

 

How do they do it when others cant?

I think if Accurascale made the announcement today about starting the development of the Mk5’s, then the prices would be a bit higher…. They would have based their prices on what the costs to produce were a couple of years ago.

[McC]

35 minutes ago, Andy Mac said:

I think if Accurascale made the announcement today about starting the development of the Mk5’s, then the prices would be a bit higher…. They would have based their prices on what the costs to produce were a couple of years ago.

Perhaps our next, new tooled announcement in a couple weeks will be educational.

[No Decorum]

14 minutes ago, McC said:

Perhaps our next, new tooled announcement in a couple weeks will be educational.

Oooo! 

[sanspareil]

3 hours ago, Andy Mac said:

I think if Accurascale made the announcement today about starting the development of the Mk5’s, then the prices would be a bit higher…. They would have based their prices on what the costs to produce were a couple of years ago.

Indeed and agreed, prices only go one way as we know. I think its more their 95% increase in just 3 years that's a concern/curiosity. If that's the direction of travel many of us are doomed in this hobby, or doomed for Hornby/Bachmann.

 

Accurascale prices indeed go up too but they seem more in control than Hornby/Bachmann, they generally stick to a price too rather than the others that see you put a pre-order in and the price go up sometimes twice in less than a year! Accurascale in my experience always produce a solid product too, you have faith in a pre-order with them, where as some of the others give you some unwelcome 'surprises' still despite the high cost!

 

 

[GordonC]

5 minutes ago, sanspareil said:

Indeed and agreed, prices only go one way as we know. I think its more their 95% increase in just 3 years that's a concern/curiosity. If that's the direction of travel many of us are doomed in this hobby, or doomed for Hornby/Bachmann.

 

Accurascale prices indeed go up too but they seem more in control than Hornby/Bachmann, they generally stick to a price too rather than the others that see you put a pre-order in and the price go up sometimes twice in less than a year! Accurascale in my experience always produce a solid product too, you have faith in a pre-order with them, where as some of the others give you some unwelcome 'surprises' still despite the high cost!

 

 

 

I think that RRP price could really do with a bit of explaining. Between the price doubling over the previous Scotrail releases and the 50% increase between a BSO and DBSO it doesn't make a lot of sense just saying 'new tooling' and 'prices have gone up'.

 

Its not all that long ago when the Mk2F tooling was designed and produced so you would have to expect Bachmann to have at least considered the option of doing the Intercity and Anglia DBSOs at the time to make it easy to add in even if all the smaller modifications on individual NR ones weren't.

 

 

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, GordonC said:

 

I think that RRP price could really do with a bit of explaining.

Becareful what you wish for…

 

A few weeks ago on facebook, someone in our village facebook group commented how Anchor butter was £2.95 at Coop and £4.95 at Sainsburys.. literally right next door.

 

A week later coops went up to £3.95 and Sainsburys came down to £3.99.

 

Edited February 8, 2022 by adb968008

[159220]

On 08/02/2022 at 09:33, Andy Mac said:

I think if Accurascale made the announcement today about starting the development of the Mk5’s, then the prices would be a bit higher…. They would have based their prices on what the costs to produce were a couple of years ago.

 

On 08/02/2022 at 10:09, McC said:

Perhaps our next, new tooled announcement in a couple weeks will be educational.

 

Sorry, but who needs an education? The forum is becoming increasingly tiring to read with a small group of posters continually repeating their issues with price. So I am going to start posting I do not care about price! The Bachmann RTOV/DBSO looks great. 

 

If I like something, I buy it. I wanted the RTOV so I bought the RTOV. If I want the next Accurascale tooling, I shall buy it (something tells me I shall be buying a lot more Accurascale and Bachmann as they are both producing quality modern models). What is important, no it is critical, is that manufacturers striving to offer the best possible detail/accuracy and include 'value for money' features such as CDL on the RTOV/DBSO.

 

I am told you can buy a laptop for less than £200, I only ever buy Mac.

I am told you can buy your weekly shop in Lidi, I only go to Waitrose & farmer's market/shop.

I am told you can fly to Barcelona for £9.99 with Ryanair, I rather go BA Club Europe.

I am told model trains cost a lot these days, try sailing as a hobby!

A hobby is for someone who takes part for enjoyment. We decide to do things in our spare time, that brings us enjoyment. It is not about cost, but pleasure. The silent majority out here, buy models as they want models. They buy from a shop, where they like the owner/staff who give great customer service. Model manufactures are businesses. Whether Bachmann, Accurascale or Hornby, they exist to make a profit and shall charge the price they want. As a customer, it is for me/us to decide what I/you want. Can this forum please move on from education on price and just enjoy it for what it is... some wonderfully fantastic, ultra high detail models that give us hours of enjoyment!! 

[steve1023]

On 08/02/2022 at 10:09, McC said:

Perhaps our next, new tooled announcement in a couple weeks will be educational.

A new model Mk1 coach range including the travelling college.....

[TravisM]

I think we often overlook is that both Bachmann and Hornby are more than just model railway manufacturing, they have fingers in many, many pies, so therefore have higher overhead costs, including staff, insurance etc.

 

We comment about Accurascale, Dapol, Realtrack and others being more realistic with their prices, but we also have understand that they possibly don’t have anywhere the costs that the big two are saddled with.  I’m not going to mention anyone in particular, but they basically work out off a lock-up.

[sanspareil]

Speaking to my top 5 retailer this weekend again, they said they have only taken order's for 5x IC DBSO's so far and overall numbers they will have from Bachmann are pretty small, so despite this still might sell out soon. I think it goes to support the alleged decreasing production numbers and thus increased production cost per unit = inflation busting RRP rise theory.  The worry is as less buy prices only increase faster. The East Anglian DBSO's will be fairly niche with only the NR having wider appeal I guess in this run.

 

My order is in for the IC one, looking forward to it. I think i worked out based on previous versions that the plough is removable and interchangeable with a coupling for 'drags' and so on.

 

PS to mention a previous poster, I am told model trains cost a lot these days, try sailing as a hobby! Its more the steep continual rises in prices that i think most people find the issue/genuine worry (especially for the less affluent who are being increasingly shut out of a hobby they once could afford - you generally find the more affluent have little patience with those who show real concern). I am in to several other hobbies and whilst they have seen cost increases nothing comes close to that of model railways.

Edited February 14, 2022 by sanspareil

[Black 5 Bear]

On 13/02/2022 at 00:17, jools1959 said:

I think we often overlook is that both Bachmann and Hornby are more than just model railway manufacturing, they have fingers in many, many pies, so therefore have higher overhead costs, including staff, insurance etc.

 

We comment about Accurascale, Dapol, Realtrack and others being more realistic with their prices, but we also have understand that they possibly don’t have anywhere the costs that the big two are saddled with.  I’m not going to mention anyone in particular, but they basically work out off a lock-up.

I’m not going to mention anyone in particular, but they basically work out off a lock-up.

You have to ask the question as to why Hornby have had two large percentage price increases in the last 12 months, whilst Dapol have increased their prices by 5% and Accurascale prices on pre-orders remain the same. After all, although smaller companies, their manufacturing, shipping and other associated  overheads must surely be the same?

These companies I would suggest certainly do not operate out of a lockup.

Perhaps if certain manufacturers improved their QC, their price increases would be more palatable !

Edited February 14, 2022 by Black 5 Bear
Typo

[159220]

17 hours ago, sanspareil said:

PS to mention a previous poster, I am told model trains cost a lot these days, try sailing as a hobby! Its more the steep continual rises in prices that i think most people find the issue/genuine worry (especially for the less affluent who are being increasingly shut out of a hobby they once could afford - you generally find the more affluent have little patience with those who show real concern). I am in to several other hobbies and whilst they have seen cost increases nothing comes close to that of model railways.

Nothing comes close to model railways increase?! We were looking at the stunning new Najad 395AC when launched in 2018 at £305,000. Of course, a yacht is a love project so we did not sell to buy this, checking recently as the Najad agent is still trying his charm, you are looking at the same yacht new for £590,000. Saying that, other “hobbies” have significantly reduced, I have picked up Club World flights to Brazil and Canada for over half the usual price. Model railway prices are drop in the ocean in terms of salary to the majority of people who I know actually enjoy it rather than come on here and winge about price (which I suspect they never did enjoyed the hobby). 

[Torbay Express]

At the end of the day, whilst an hobby to us, model railways are a business and industry.  As such basic economic and commercial principles apply.

 

Larger manufacturers should technically achieve economies of scale after taking over other companies when the brands are integrated.  Likewise as prices increase, it attracts competition if it is perceived that there money to be made.  Model railways require quite a large amount of capital to be invested in tooling, research etc., before you look at producing even a penny of revenue - a substantial barrier to entry.  You also need modellers to trust you enough to purchase your products.  Thats quite a daunting prospect for any newcomer, and if you misinterpret the market, produce a model with a fundamental flaw, or another manufacturer produces the same model- it's a recipe for disaster.  

 

Businesses will price according to the businesses objectives, and it's for each individual to decide whether they consider that the item offers sufficient value for them to purchase it.  If you're looking at 300k yachts, then the cost of a DBSO is not really of concern, whilst to others it is going to be a sizable purchase with their disposable income.

 

Going back to the title, the DBSO is a useful product, but whether it's worth the equivalent of 2 and a half Accurascale MK2's - it's for the modeller to decide?  There is also the Revolution Caroline to consider - but that is a one vehicle train which needs all the tooling costs paid for most likely in 1 production run.  Likewise due to the cost, will it deter people from purchasing a rake of Bachmann MK2's?  If you have a pair of Colas or DRS Class 37's - it may offer better value to top and tail a Network Rail test train.......

 

From my experience, relative new comers to the industry have largely acted exemplary (excluding one that demised).  With modern accounting - does anyone actually want a warehouse brimming with stock?

 

[andyman7]

12 minutes ago, Torbay Express said:

 

From my experience, relative new comers to the industry have largely acted exemplary (excluding one that demised).  With modern accounting - does anyone actually want a warehouse brimming with stock?

 

You've pretty much summed up how capitalism works - in an established market, existing operators that do not evolve and change will find their markets challenged; and newcomers that enter the market have to be better/different to succeed.

[adb968008]

On 15/02/2022 at 15:47, andyman7 said:

You've pretty much summed up how capitalism works - in an established market, existing operators that do not evolve and change will find their markets challenged; and newcomers that enter the market have to be better/different to succeed.

I thought Darwinism predated Capitalism.

[andyman7]

6 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

I thought Darwinism predated Capitalism.

They're related but 'On the Origin of Species' was published in 1859 so I think Capitalism has it

[adb968008]

14 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

They're related but 'On the Origin of Species' was published in 1859 so I think Capitalism has it

Theory of natural selection was 1838, but evolved from his prior studies.

The word capitalism didn't enter Oxford dictionary until 1854, and is an evolution of Mercantilism, which like the neanderthals, still masks its dna amongst us.

 

Either way, Darwinism still stands over all, failure to adapt to change will see failure.

Edited February 18, 2022 by adb968008

[TravisM]

I had originally ordered the Network Rail DBSO but then cancelled it when I saw it didn’t come with the additional ‘attachments’ on the leading end.  I have since been told that the camera’s, light’s and other details are included, but in a sealed bag and not fitted.  Can anyone confirm or deny this please.

[Steadfast]

23 minutes ago, jools1959 said:

I had originally ordered the Network Rail DBSO but then cancelled it when I saw it didn’t come with the additional ‘attachments’ on the leading end.  I have since been told that the camera’s, light’s and other details are included, but in a sealed bag and not fitted.  Can anyone confirm or deny this please.

9702, the one being modelled, doesn't have the infra red lights etc fitted to some of the others. A sensible one of Bachmann to choose as it is one of the less modified ones,  no generator either. 

Here linked from Flickr in 2021.

 

Jo

[adb968008]

Spotted yesterday…

 

 

 

 

Edited April 5, 2022 by adb968008

[Ian_B]

Pity the production run was so restricted,

 

[PieGuyRob]

11 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Spotted yesterday…

The Anglia version looks nice.

[wandering blue]

Spoke with the Bachmann rep who was present at the display at HLJ over the weekend.

He was confident that the DBSOs are on schedule to meet the arrival date currently stated on the Bachmann website, ie May/June.

 

 

 

[adb968008]

22 hours ago, wandering blue said:

Spoke with the Bachmann rep who was present at the display at HLJ over the weekend.

He was confident that the DBSOs are on schedule to meet the arrival date currently stated on the Bachmann website, ie May/June.

 

 

 

I wonder if some matching stock will accompany them.