Point motors: Tortoise vs Cobalt

[The Fatadder]

I am just about ready to start fitting point motors to the first points I have built for Brent. The last time I went through this process was something like 10 years ago, when Tortoise motors were pretty much the only choice. I have managed to reclaim 6 tortoise from Blackcomb (and believe there are two more spares hidden away somewhere in the railway room), but this will only cover a small proportion of the needed points. Further to this the 6 that have already been used will need new longer pins due to the different method of actuation used between the layouts (Blackcomb using a pin soldered to each blade while Brent uses a copperclad tiebar and a single connection to the motor.)

 

By this reckoning (and depending on whether Peco track is used in the fiddle-yard) I will need another 12 motors for the scenic section (assuming that you need 2 motors to power a slip), with a further 16 potentially needed for the fiddle-yard.

 

All points will be powered by a dedicated 12V DC supply (which this time will not be the 12V output of a 1995 Hornby trainset controller!) With control of points initially using On Off On toggle switches (again liberated from Blackcomb to start with). Eventually this will be upgraded to be controlled via a leaver frame (I have a 6 leaver frame from the Scalefour kit waiting to be built, which will then be expanded.) With the toggle switches maintained for the fiddle-yard.

 

With the background data out of the way onto the question,

I see now that DCC Concepts offer a slow action point motor which is slightly more expensive than the Tortoise, along with a whole load of other control bits for both DCC and conventional operation of turnouts. What is the advantage of the Cobalt motor over the Tortoise? And what is the benefit of all of these alpha boxes etc. that DCC concepts are selling?

 

Having never built anything remotely the size and complexity of Brent before I am trying to ensure that the wiring and control is fully up to scratch, the last thing I want is to finish the layout and then decide that the layout is not operating in the way I want it to.

[Dungrange]

I have exactly the same question, so I will also be interested in the replies.  The only difference in my case is that I haven't actually built the turnouts yet!

[RexAshton]

I am just about ready to start fitting point motors to the first points I have built for Brent. The last time I went through this process was something like 10 years ago, when Tortoise motors were pretty much the only choice. I have managed to reclaim 6 tortoise from Blackcomb (and believe there are two more spares hidden away somewhere in the railway room), but this will only cover a small proportion of the needed points. Further to this the 6 that have already been used will need new longer pins due to the different method of actuation used between the layouts (Blackcomb using a pin soldered to each blade while Brent uses a copperclad tiebar and a single connection to the motor.)

 

By this reckoning (and depending on whether Peco track is used in the fiddle-yard) I will need another 12 motors for the scenic section (assuming that you need 2 motors to power a slip), with a further 16 potentially needed for the fiddle-yard.

 

All points will be powered by a dedicated 12V DC supply (which this time will not be the 12V output of a 1995 Hornby trainset controller!) With control of points initially using On Off On toggle switches (again liberated from Blackcomb to start with). Eventually this will be upgraded to be controlled via a leaver frame (I have a 6 leaver frame from the Scalefour kit waiting to be built, which will then be expanded.) With the toggle switches maintained for the fiddle-yard.

 

With the background data out of the way onto the question,

I see now that DCC Concepts offer a slow action point motor which is slightly more expensive than the Tortoise, along with a whole load of other control bits for both DCC and conventional operation of turnouts. What is the advantage of the Cobalt motor over the Tortoise? And what is the benefit of all of these alpha boxes etc. that DCC concepts are selling?

 

Having never built anything remotely the size and complexity of Brent before I am trying to ensure that the wiring and control is fully up to scratch, the last thing I want is to finish the layout and then decide that the layout is not operating in the way I want it to.

I've experienced both over the years on various layouts and to be fair there's been little to chose between them. The Cobalt is a little smaller and it uses solder free connections which could be handy in the unlikely event of one failing. This is about the cheapest price I've found for Cobalts. I've not used the alpha box you mentioned so I can't help you there. I'm not sure but the Tortoise used to come with an lifetime warranty but as I never had one fail that was irrelevant. I'm using servos on the new layout so it'll be interesting to see how they compare

[PaulRhB]

I've used both and as long as you get the latest cobalts DC or DCC there's little to choose between them. We have found after 16 years, only on heavily used points, a couple of tortoises cases cracked where the mech stalls against it. It seems to be the plastic going brittle with age and then the mech causing fatigue failure.

The initial cobalts weren't as good but the latest styles are very good. The Cobalts are slightly smaller and there is a 90° bracket for shallow baseboards too.

I only changed to Cobalts as I wanted the DCC built in option as I was very happy with the tortoise and they were the first to design one so simple to install. The template sold for cobalts is a bit unnecessary as I just centre the point and motor then stick the motor in from underneath attaching it with the sticky pad, then add the screws.

I tried the Minx microdrives but found them susceptible to need recalibration if the layout was moved while I've stored my Swiss layout in a damp unheated shed for years and never had a tortoise cause any problem apart from the old age failure mentioned above.

Hope that helps.

[Guest]

As Paul says above, issues with the Minx Microdrives have led me to explore the pros and cons of both Cobalt and Tortoise. I'm swayed by Cobalt as some issues with the earlier incarnations seem to have been ironed out. As has been mentioned, there is also a comprehensive DC/DCC accessory package. The solder-free connections are a bonus if anything needs to be swapped out. Comparing the two side by side, the Cobalt is smaller but there's not that much in it. My baseboard framework is 3" x 1" softwood but it actually measures 69mm after planing. The total depth of the Cobalt is 68mm, so do be aware that 100mm baseboard framework is advisable to avoid snagging the wires entering the motor. The right-angle brackets mentioned above would be a solution for shallower baseboard framework but they would add to the cost. I'm sure a DIY bracket could be made up. I can't help you with longevity reports but so far I'm pleased with the Cobalts. Just get the latest versions if you choose these over the Tortoises.

[Peter Beckett]

I use both and some Pros and Cons (in my opinion)

 

Tortoise slightly larger than Cobalt but not a problem on my layout as plenty of room underneath

Original Tortoise require plug with connections requiring soldering, however once set up provide a robust and good connection.

Tortoise can be manually centred when setting up whereas Cobalt cannot be manually adjusted

Cobalt has European style connectors which require wires to be pushed into, these are only for fine gauge wire 

I have never had a problem with Tortoise motors and some are over 20 years old.

I have had one Cobalt with a problem of sticking and was one of the early batch. DCConcepts supplied a fix and no problems since 

 

Peter

[two tone green]

Hi Rich. I use the Cobalts and have a few spares if you want to try them. I can bring them into work if you want.

[Kris]

I have use both and have never had any issues with either. I have also much like others used minx micro drives, but only in locations where there was very minimal space (inside a viaduct).

[brossard]

The wire connections of Tortoise can either be soldered directly to the board or you can use a D connector.  The D connectors I have need shimming at either end to ensure that the contacts are in the right position.

 

One issue I had (and it was probably down to my wiring) was that I had shorts as a result of the wires soldered direct to the board moving and touching one another, most likely during transport.  This fault was incredibly difficult to diagnose and in the midst of a show too!

 

The non soldered connection of the Cobalt would make me choose that over Tortoise - the design is somewhat dated.  I have Tortoises still and will use them, but with my eyes wide open as to potential problems.

 

Another thing I ran into was the 0.020" steel wire is generally too wimbly to move turnout blades reliably.  I changed over to 0.032" steel which works much better.  The Cobalt comes with pre bent 0.032" steel wire IIRC.

 

The Cobalts to me are an obvious example of reverse engineering the Tortoise.

 

John

[Gordon A]

Have you considered using radio control servos?

 

Gordon A

[Barry O]

Having recently operated a layout at a show with newly fitted cobalts and having used Tortoise some points I have found are

 

Tortoise - larger so need deeper base boards. Some of the early ones did have problems with the built in wiper switches

 

Cobalt - smaller, the operating wire adjusting slider are very poor and move in use, the push in wiring blocks need care when being used ( the wires can pull out), the switching system doesn't always work at all.

 

From an engineers view the Cobalt is a design clever unit which needs a bit more engineering. You should not need any other frog switching when using such a device but these need a bit more re-engineering.

 

Baz

[PaulRhB]

Cobalt - the operating wire adjusting slider are very poor and move in use,

 

Secure with a dab of copydex or pva that can be easily peeled off to free them if required.

On the Tortoise we used a small self tapper to do the same thing.

 

Cobalt - the push in wiring blocks need care when being used ( the wires can pull out),

 

They do mention in the instructions making sure the stripped end of the wire is the right length to be gripped properly. I found this out by reading them after experiencing the same issue, typical bloke!

[juke]

I'm fairly sure I read on some Cobalt literature about a year ago that they could be soldered using the circuit board on the unit. I can't find the reference but looking at a picture just now it does seem possible.

 

I'll have a try next time I'm up in the loft, hopefully tomorrow.

 

Syd

 

Edit: Found this on Craven models site: http://www.cravenmodels.com/COBALT.htm

 

Cobalt needs NO soldering.
Its no fun soldering under the baseboard... and edge connectors are hard to find and always expensive.
Cobalt has a very high quality 8 way solder-less connector that doesn't even need a screwdriver to give you a perfect connection in moments. (you may find a small blade type driver or similar tool a handy tool for helping with the “Push to insert” connector though)
If you DO prefer to solder... You can of course - And to make even that an easy and safe task...we have purposely chosen a connector which uses TWO solder points per connection point, so you can solder to one of these with no risk to the integrity of the connector or point motor, and the solder resist over all parts of the board other than the solder pad mean there is little chance of bridging connections.

[orford]

I tried both and for me it's a no-brainer. Cobalts every time.  One thing which has not yet been mentioned is that (in my experience) Cobalts are a lot quieter than Tortoise.  As mentioned above, the slight issues with the early Cobalts have been sorted out and the current ones seem very reliable.  A couple which I did have problems with (early batch) were replaced instantly with no questions asked, even though they were by then several years old. Great customer service.

[Yardman]

i would suggest neither. Go to servos, cheaper, better control and much smaller.

[PaulRhB]

i would suggest neither. Go to servos, cheaper, better control and much smaller.

I can't agree with better control and I'd say the cobalt is slightly simpler to retrofit vs the size advantage of servos.

Yes it's a good option with glitch free systems like the megapoint if you've added the extra switches etc though which all come included in the cobalt.

[gz3xzf]

Hi all

 

I haven't used any slow motion point motors yet, but have been researching which to use, I have purchased a Hoffman to try. In my research I have also considered Tortoise, Fulgurex, Carr's memory wire and servo's (in the form of SmartSwitch).

 

I discounted the Fulgurex as I am told they have been discontinued, the Tortoise is too deep for my baseboard, the Smartswitch actually seems too expensive (I haven't looked at other ways of using/driving servos) and the memory wire didn't appeal to me.

 

Didn't consider Cobolt's, but they also look too deep for my baseboard.

 

I am planning to setup a test rig for the Hoffman, I will post some pictures or a video when I have had a play.

[PaulRhB]

Didn't consider Cobolt's, but they also look too deep for my baseboard.

.

They do a 90 degree adaptor if that helps

[Vistisen]

There is soon another option

 

DCC concepts are about to release a surface mount point motor that looks like a Westinghouse unit. They are apparently also about to release operating point rodding that will actually change points ( and signals?) using the new sutface mount. Richard has shown a couple of photos in the here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/110254-dcc-concepts-oo-gauge-bullhead-turnouts/page-8&do=findComment&comment=2358459

[The Fatadder]

Hi Rich. I use the Cobalts and have a few spares if you want to try them. I can bring them into work if you want.

If I could have a look at one on Monday that would be great thanks,

[melmerby]

I have tried many point motors.

 

Solenoid type:

H&M and Codar, both big, both excellent but need lots of current and obviously not slo-mo

Peco & Hornby OK, somewhat smaller, likewise not slo-mo

Seep, very much the cheap end of the market, switch is rubbish, much better available. I would avoid

 

Slow Motion (Stall) type:

Cobalt: My two were noisy, both started to stick at travel end after a while and are also fairly large but obviously not as big as a Tortoise.

Tortoise. Mine are quiet, reliable and obviously large, the supplied wire is perfectly OK to operate Peco and similar points. The edge connector (contrary to a comment above) is easy to get but needs careful centering on the Tortoise.

 

After trying the two Cobalt and a few Tortoises I went all Tortoise (about 50) and haven't yet had a failure.

 

It's easy to mount a Tortoise in different positions (e.g. Horizontal), just mount it on a piece of angle!

 

If starting again I would probably go Servo.

Using this decoder and your choice of servo could be much, much cheaper and easy to control:

http://www.digikeijs.com/catalog/product/view/id/80/s/dr4024-4-channel-servodecoder-with-4-additional-switching-outputs/

 

Keith

[Ron Ron Ron]

........And what is the benefit of all of these alpha boxes etc. that DCC concepts are selling?

 

 

The Cobalt Alpha stuff, is for DCC control of points/signals and DCC compatible mimic panels. The Alpha range also includes their own DCC booster, which can be used to power track, or for creating a separate accessory bus.

 

 

.

[two tone green]

Ok Rich. See you Monday.

[Grovenor]

 

DCC concepts are about to release a surface mount point motor that looks like a Westinghouse unit.

That is a misquote, the surface mount point motor is not a scale model, the Westinghouse is a cosmetic model of an Electro pneumatic motor as used at major interlockings in the 1960s such as M/c London Rd. Euston, Birmingham NS etc.

Regards

[jcm@gwr]

There is another slow motion point motor, British made,

that hasn't been mentioned; The Little Jemmy.

It has a micro motor, worm drive & clutch, with room for

3 micro switches. It has a footprint of 21 x 32 mm and

23 mm high, there is a universal mounting base, but it

does fit the Peco base, I've used them and I'm quite

impressed at £12:96 (3 for £36).

No website, but you can e-mail for info and price list

 

graham@fawn-electronics.co.uk