Hornby Class 87 - Confirmed Newly Tooled Version for 2017 !

[Mad McCann]

The orange stripe came in early 1979 I think; not sure if any were without at the end of 1980.

In terms of AC electrics, a study of photos confirms you right there, Andrew, thanks. I think it appeared with the first experimental liveries of 1979.

My comment appears more relevant to diesels, upon which the stripe (preceded by a broad white version on Railfreight repaints) appears early in 1986, before only becoming truly universal the following year, going by personal observation at the time.

It does of course make sense that the first large scale application at the beginning of the decade is on AC traction. Back then I never noticed because I spent all my time at GQS, watching the diesels! ;-)

 

 

D.

[MGR Hooper!]

im going to have to not go along with the train of thought that most buyers will run the model without OHE.   I bet it was rife in the Lima or even more recent Limby days for the average at home layout modeller or train set runner (of which I was one) but my view is that we have turned a corner for AC electrics in this country with the introduction of brand new models (85, 86, 87, 90, 92, so far) along with Dapol and Peco catenary ranges plus the excellent N Brass gantry kits.  Those crying out for the new models for years like me will want to see the locos in the correct setting although a tiny proportion might purchase the model for mock "dragging" on a diesel only layout.  

 

So maybe it would be more accurate to say many may run the model without actual wires. Many who can afford such expensive AC models and are prepared to pay for the new detail and features will I predict at least go halfway house and equip their layouts with masts, headspans or gantries etc to give as near as damn it the look of an overhead electrified railway.  Then youll get a layer of buyer above that who will go the whole hog and have the contact wires (or already have full catenary on an existing layout) but who knows the growth in AC locos might even spur people on to install wires. 

How many is many? I'm sure not as many as those who will not bother about it.

 

When it comes to AC electrics, the people who buy it can be broadly classified into :-

- Those who want to put it in a showcase (collector)

- Those who have temporary layouts

- Those who have a layout without OHE masts and wires

- Those who have a layout with OHE masts and without wires

- Those who have a layout with a full cosmetic OHE setup and who don't fuss about the pantograph

- Those who have a layout with a full cosmetic OHE setup and who want a sprung pantograph

- Those who have a layout with a fully functioning OHE setup and who don't fuss about the pantograph

- Those who have a layout with a fully functioning OHE setup and who want a sprung pantograph

- Those who happily pose a pantograph 1mm below the wire

- Those who have cosmetic OHE and run trains with their pantograph down

.....(feel free to add more)

 

But I can say with full confidence that most people won't mind a poseable pantograph. And most people will not be bothered by it. There's very few people who insist on a sprung pantograph and fewer still who will want one that is fully functional i.e. for power collection and even fewer still who want a DCC controlled one.

Edited August 20, 2018 by MGR Hooper!

[newbryford]

How many is many? I'm sure not as many as those who will not bother about it.

 

When it comes to AC electrics, the people who buy it can be broadly classified into :-

- Those who want to put it in a showcase (collector)

- Those who have temporary layouts

- Those who have a layout without OHE masts and wires

- Those who have a layout with OHE masts and without wires

- Those who have a layout with a full cosmetic OHE setup and who don't fuss about the pantograph

- Those who have a layout with a full cosmetic OHE setup and who want a sprung pantograph

- Those who have a layout with a fully functioning OHE setup and who don't fuss about the pantograph

- Those who have a layout with a fully functioning OHE setup and who want a sprung pantograph

- Those who happily pose a pantograph 1mm below the wire

- Those who have cosmetic OHE and run trains with their pantograph down

 

Those who will take the motor out and drag it "DIT" on a diversionary working...…...

[letterspider]

How many is many? I'm sure not as many as those who will not bother about it.

 

When it comes to AC electrics, the people who buy it can be broadly classified into :-

- Those who want to put it in a showcase (collector)

- Those who have temporary layouts

- Those who have a layout without OHE masts and wires

- Those who have a layout with OHE masts and without wires

- Those who have a layout with a full cosmetic OHE setup and who don't fuss about the pantograph

- Those who have a layout with a full cosmetic OHE setup and who want a sprung pantograph

- Those who have a layout with a fully functioning OHE setup and who don't fuss about the pantograph

- Those who have a layout with a fully functioning OHE setup and who want a sprung pantograph

- Those who happily pose a pantograph 1mm below the wire

- Those who have cosmetic OHE and run trains with their pantograph down

 

 

 

No, they went down the most sensible path. The most cost effective and most sensible path. I listed reasons above which you didn't include in your quote of my post.

 

Giving the customer's a choice would simply cost more. If people really want a sprung pantograph, why not start a poll and gather as many signatures as you can and pass on the results to Hornby. It won't even cross 500. If it does maybe Hornby can make a drop in replacement unrealistic sprung pantograph.

 

And as far as I see it, using aftermarket supplies isn't a bad thing, especially if a small supplier or cottage industry comes up with one, you'll be supporting a small business. Why not ask Judith Edge to design a drop in replacement sprung pantograph kit?

 

Well - why not have a poll for the BW version, as that is likely to cover a wider range of Classes and have more potential for retro fitting?

I would set up a poll but don't know how to do that ...

[298]

the orange cant rail stripe came in earlier than 1987.

'87 was the year it was put into group standards, before then they were white, Orange and red and most shades in between, in a variety of thicknesses and often only alongside the central roof gutters and not around the cabs.

[Mike at C&M]

 

.....(feel free to add more)

How about those who have European catenary up, and don't mind what they run underneath it?

 

My (very) soon to be retired Lima model under Viessmann German 1928-style catenary

 

[ThaneofFife]

How many is many? I'm sure not as many as those who will not bother about it.

 

When it comes to AC electrics, the people who buy it can be broadly classified into :-

- Those who want to put it in a showcase (collector)

- Those who have temporary layouts

- Those who have a layout without OHE masts and wires

- Those who have a layout with OHE masts and without wires

- Those who have a layout with a full cosmetic OHE setup and who don't fuss about the pantograph

- Those who have a layout with a full cosmetic OHE setup and who want a sprung pantograph

- Those who have a layout with a fully functioning OHE setup and who don't fuss about the pantograph

- Those who have a layout with a fully functioning OHE setup and who want a sprung pantograph

- Those who happily pose a pantograph 1mm below the wire

- Those who have cosmetic OHE and run trains with their pantograph down

.....(feel free to add more)

 

But I can say with full confidence that most people won't mind a poseable pantograph. And most people will not be bothered by it. There's very few people who insist on a sprung pantograph and fewer still who will want one that is fully functional i.e. for power collection and even fewer still who want a DCC controlled one.

 

Just sayin'.  Don't beat yourself up over this just because I disagree with you. 

 

You seemed to have now moved the discussion on slightly to include pantographs use which was not the singular point you was originally trying to make ie; that few who buy this model will bother with OHE.  Stick to one line of the discussion so everyone is clear which side of the fence you are on rather than attempting to cover every counter view with some other set of variables.

Edited August 20, 2018 by ThaneofFife

[MGR Hooper!]

Just sayin'.  Don't beat yourself up over this just because I disagree with you.

A little exaggerated maybe? Listing the types of people who will buy a model of an AC electric isn't beating one's self up. Maybe emojis in future posts will help some people understand my post as you seem to have read it in all seriousness whereas I am trying to have a normal conversation.

[railtec-models]

For those of you looking to re-number 87.035 when it is released, Railtec transfers have just announced a sheet of locomotive numbers suitable for BR Blue electrics.

 

http://www.railtec-models.com/showitem.php?id=3480 

 

Thanks for that. Although not sure how it happened but the link seems to be slightly malformed. Folks - please use the link below:

 

4mm-1248

http://www.railtec-models.com/showitem.php?id=3480

 

(It looks the same as the link posted by 87029 although the previous link had some extra characters in its URL).

 

Here's an image of the pack if it helps:

 

 

Maybe worth noting if it hasn't been mentioned already, that even for those whose layout may not incorporate any electrics and therefore put off from buying the Hornby 87, it wasn't out of the question to see the ACs being dragged through non-electrified locations of course. I remember seeing my last 85 through Manchester Victoria way back when.

Edited August 20, 2018 by railtec-models

[wombatofludham]

Well, I'm planning to have masts but no wires.  Why?  Because I  can't solder, but need portal frames (N Brass unless Peco get their finger out although they need components soldering on) so constructing the dropper and register arms for N Brass portals, strong enough to take the weight of the wiring, out of metal rod is out.  Instead I'll 3d print the arms and use N Brass insulators to create the register arms and not bother with the knitting.  Poseable non working pans are fine for me.

IMFL so bite me if that causes upset.

[Fenman]

...

You seemed to have now moved the discussion on slightly to include pantographs use which was not the singular point you was originally trying to make ie; that few who buy this model will bother with OHE.  Stick to one line of the discussion so everyone is clear which side of the fence you are on rather than attempting to cover every counter view with some other set of variables.

 

Doesn't that assume that people can't be swayed by the debate and change their minds? I think part of the joy of some of the threads on here is how discussions develop, including the mad digressions (there's a VAST conspiracy being uncovered on a thread about wrongly-addressed bills, involving the BBC and, er, the Tavistock Institute. Utterly bonkers and makes me feel quite joyful).

 

I'm a bit mystified by the guy who won't buy this model because it doesn't have a working pantograph. It reminded me of the guy on a new car thread who would never, ever consider buying a Skoda because they had one of those accelerator pedals that was hinged at the bottom, not on a stalk from the top. And that was the deal-breaker for him - his red line, beyond which he Would Not Go.

 

There's nowt so queer as folk. And I include me in that sweeping generatlisation. Though am willing to change my mind if appropriate evidence is presented...

 

Paul

[Gordon H]

No, they went down the most sensible path. The most cost effective and most sensible path. I listed reasons above which you didn't include in your quote of my post.

 

Giving the customer's a choice would simply cost more. If people really want a sprung pantograph, why not start a poll and gather as many signatures as you can and pass on the results to Hornby. It won't even cross 500. If it does maybe Hornby can make a drop in replacement unrealistic sprung pantograph.

 

And as far as I see it, using aftermarket supplies isn't a bad thing, especially if a small supplier or cottage industry comes up with one, you'll be supporting a small business. Why not ask Judith Edge to design a drop in replacement sprung pantograph kit?

 

Sensible to you, as it happens to agree with your thoughts on the matter, which are clearly not those of a committed OHL modeller.

Your approach appears to be based purely on the economics of the situation rather than achieving a properly engineered end result. I would rather pay a bit more and have it properly functional than suffer another example of the typical low-end compromise we are being palmed off with yet again.

If you don't want to have wires why bother modelling a genre which by its very nature requires them?

It appears the only way to foster greater interest in this field is to encourage modellers to try doing it for themselves. It would therefore be useful if the nay-sayers with their lack of vision would encourage people to do so rather than trying to persuade them it's all too difficult.

['CHARD]

 

Your approach appears to be based purely on the economics of the situation rather than achieving a properly engineered end result. I would rather pay a bit more and have it properly functional than suffer another example of the typical low-end compromise we are being palmed off with yet again.

 

 

The low-end compromise already retails at an RRP of £170.99.  I'd have thought that's a tag off-putting enough for many potential buyers, without adding 'a bit more,' for which there's no benchmark, but let's make an ill-educated stab at it being 17.5% more, giving a no-compromise model of £200.91.  Now I'm no expert, but somewhere in their sales strategy Hornby will have fixed a price-point at which this model is expected to shift.  I'm guessing that the psychological impact of a 200 number upon prospective buyers makes it a no-no. 

[sirwilliamfrs]

Quote; " It reminded me of the guy on a new car thread who would never, ever consider buying a Skoda because they had one of those accelerator pedals that was hinged at the bottom, not on a stalk from the top. And that was the deal-breaker for him - his red line, beyond which he Would Not Go.

 

There's nowt so queer as folk. And I include me in that sweeping generalisation. Though am willing to change my mind if appropriate evidence is presented..."

 

Well we'll all be able to buy a Skoda next year when Bachmann bring out the Class 90!

Edited August 20, 2018 by sirwilliamfrs

[Wild Boar Fell]

The low-end compromise already retails at an RRP of £170.99.  I'd have thought that's a tag off-putting enough for many potential buyers, without adding 'a bit more,' for which there's no benchmark, but let's make an ill-educated stab at it being 17.5% more, giving a no-compromise model of £200.91.  Now I'm no expert, but somewhere in their sales strategy Hornby will have fixed a price-point at which this model is expected to shift.  I'm guessing that the psychological impact of a 200 number upon prospective buyers makes it a no-no. 

 

I would say a good benchmark would be the Bachmann 90 with its servo assisted sprung pan, RRP £179.95

[leopardml2341]

Seriously but I wonder what the price of the Bachmann loco will be when (if?) it eventually arrives?

 

And wouldn't the '87' look good with a train of PO(S) and PO(T) vehicles.....

Edited August 20, 2018 by leopardml2341

[87004]

No mention of the pantograph being a spare on the Service Sheet:

https://www.Hornby.com/servicesheets/index/download/id/105/

Isn't that the current (previous) Hornby 87, based on the Lima one? Service sheet is dated 2009!

 

Sorry, this has been pointed out earlier in the thread, this is what happens when you reply to a cached thread!

Edited August 20, 2018 by 87004

[Dagworth]

Those of us who build realistic OLE are quite capable of changing a cosmetic pan for a working one. Judith Edge sell the correct pattern cross-arm as a kit.

 

Yes it might cost a few quid and a bit of time but I’m going to be spending time sorting out the lights too so changing the pan isn’t really a hardship. To be honest there is not a single loco/unit that would be allowed under my OLE with a pan direct from the factory, they all without exception have springs that need to be weakened and I insist on a maximum height for a raised pan without wires of 80mm above rail height for clearance through the unwired fiddle yards.

 

Andi

[piranha230]

If Hornby could sell the Brecknell Willis pantograph as a spare it would be great to use on the Bratchell kits and to upgrade the older Hornby models.

[Wild Boar Fell]

Seriously but I wonder what the price of the Bachmann loco will be when (if?) it eventually arrives?

 

And wouldn't the '87' look good with a train of PO(S) and PO(T) vehicles.....

 

I know what you're doing there Andy... 

I'd already found this, regardless of the TPOs;

https://flic.kr/p/pJSptY

 

Wild Boar Fell

[letterspider]

Simples...Hornby went down the road for an accurate looking pantograph and not functional.

 

- Most people don't even have OHE. A majority are going to run the loco on track that doesn't have OHE.

- Some people will just have OHE masts (sprung pantographs aren't recommended here).

- Most other also have many accessories that may be too low (tunnels, signal gantries, bridges etc).

- A poseable pantograph is the best one in terms of accuracy and realism as one can raise it to the desired height, thus suiting a majority of people.

- There is always the unrealistic Bachmann one if you wish to have some apparent realistic working pantograhs.

- Unless DCC controlled a normal sprung pantograph still requires "the hand of God" to operate it.

 

So thank you Hornby for adopting the better approach....

 

 

How many is many? I'm sure not as many as those who will not bother about it.

 

When it comes to AC electrics, the people who buy it can be broadly classified into :-

- Those who want to put it in a showcase (collector)

- Those who have temporary layouts

- Those who have a layout without OHE masts and wires

- Those who have a layout with OHE masts and without wires

- Those who have a layout with a full cosmetic OHE setup and who don't fuss about the pantograph

- Those who have a layout with a full cosmetic OHE setup and who want a sprung pantograph

- Those who have a layout with a fully functioning OHE setup and who don't fuss about the pantograph

- Those who have a layout with a fully functioning OHE setup and who want a sprung pantograph

- Those who happily pose a pantograph 1mm below the wire

- Those who have cosmetic OHE and run trains with their pantograph down

.....(feel free to add more)

 

But I can say with full confidence that most people won't mind a poseable pantograph. And most people will not be bothered by it. There's very few people who insist on a sprung pantograph and fewer still who will want one that is fully functional i.e. for power collection and even fewer still who want a DCC controlled one.

 

When you see how many Bachmann Class 66's are on eBay at the moment due to the imminent release of the Hattons model - it makes you wonder if Hornby made the right decision to compromise on the quality on the pan. No one on the Hatton's thread are apologising for the quality of that model.

 

Yet here we are

 

It's plastic and that will disappoint potential customers, whereas metal would not have disappointed anyone. I am sure that this thread ran that topic into the ground and it looks like it's a bad decision - other reasons include...

 

Even if it is a really good plastic pan and they supply it cheaply as spares, then I would probably just buy that and improve my LIMA and LIMBY models and upgrade them with lighting, which would be tricky but not nearly as tricky as a metal pantograph kit. In any case you can pay someone to install lighting but who can you pay to build a metal pantograph kit at a reasonable price?

 

A sprung, non working metal pan would probably have been the best compromise to save money, as with very simple modifications it can be made both functional and posable and it at least has the potential to work under catenary. Alternatively multiple springs could be supplied seperately as an option to be fitted by the fussiest modellers and so bring down costs of assembly at the factory.

[letterspider]

I suppose if it is biodegradable plastic then at least it woud be environmentally friendly

[298]

Those of us who build realistic OLE are quite capable of changing a cosmetic pan for a working one. Judith Edge sell the correct pattern cross-arm as a kit.

 

Andi

And as we know as probably the first visual point of call for scale modelled electrification, for every one person who achieves what we do, there will be another nine who haven't and want to but are frustrated that such efforts don't jump out of a box and land on their layouts. Such a lack of cohesiveness might not be publicly spoken about but is the reason why RTR loco manufacturers will knock off obscure prototypes or continue with known duplications, but overhead AC electric locos and EMUs are woefully under represented.

 

Japan culture dictates just modelling the masts in smaller scales, and European HO means fairly accurate masts and pans running under overscale wires with the ability to pick up from them. And yet the first British loco released after our leading track manufacturer markets OHLE has a floppy plastic pan? It's a bit ridiculous really...

 

I'd like to hear a response from Hornby as to why they chose this form of Pan, especially when the pre-production locos were reported to have metal arms. But I doubt they even have a publicity department at the moment, and MGR Hooker seems to be doing that work for free.

[MGR Hooper!]

I'd like to hear a response from Hornby as to why they chose this form of Pan, especially when the pre-production locos were reported to have metal arms. But I doubt they even have a publicity department at the moment, and MGR Hooker seems to be doing that work for free.

 

As juvenile as your name modification is, as a member of the fairer sex I am disgusted (thankfully not insulted as other ladies would) by that choice of word and nothing I have said on this thread warrants any juvenile name calling. Grow up!

 

I'm out!

[The Ghost of IKB]

Yes it might cost a few quid and a bit of time but........ clearance through the unwired fiddle yards.

Andi

How incredibly contemporary your layout is... discontinuous electrification!

You're not an advisor to Chris Grayling are you?