Hornby Class 87 - Confirmed Newly Tooled Version for 2017 !

[298]

Attention AC electric enthusiasts!

 

There is a poll on Hornby's website asking people to vote for their favourite of the three new traction announcements.  "Our" loco is currently coming in last!

 

Get voting!

 

http://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/news/the-engine-shed/stop-press-exclusive-warley-announcement/

That link also answers which loco they have been working with.

[Mike at C&M]

INFORMATION REQUIRED, PLEASE

   During the day, I have been exchanging e-mails with Paul at Hornby with regard to some of the points raised on this thread. There are a few questions with regard to dates that require clarification, please.

 

- When did the radio aerials appear on the locomotives.

- When did Brecknell-Willis high-speed pantographs become common.

- When did the larger multiple operation boxes get replaced by the t.d.m. cabling on the loco front

- When was the fire surpression equipment fitted to the roof.

 

  Your help with this is appreciated.

[andyman7]

INFORMATION REQUIRED, PLEASE

   During the day, I have been exchanging e-mails with Paul at Hornby with regard to some of the points raised on this thread. There are a few questions with regard to dates that require clarification, please.

 

- When did the radio aerials appear on the locomotives.

- When did Brecknell-Willis high-speed pantographs become common.

- When did the larger multiple operation boxes get replaced by the t.d.m. cabling on the loco front

- When was the fire surpression equipment fitted to the roof.

 

  Your help with this is appreciated.

I'm sure there will be others with more specific dates, but based on my observations living and working by the WCML in the 80s the Brecknell-Willis High Speed pantographs date from the mid to late 1980s at the earliest. 1989 also marked the start of DVT operation, and it was the DVTs that needed the TDM jumpers so I would date the changeover to then or shortly before. 

 

I've just had a look and managed to find the following photo which I would have taken around 1986/87 showing what I think is 87024 (although it might possibly be 87034) with old style MU equipment but a high-speed pantograph. Originally the TDM jumpers were fitted in addition to the MU jumpers - although the latter equipment was later removed.

[Roy Langridge]

Flickr is often a good source of reference photos to help. A quick look has shown 86257 with just TDM* in May 87 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/86020500@N06/14043884231/) and 86419 with both TDM and MW in September 90 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/mrc31176/12861883755/). Neither are my photos.

 

The photos also show that the MW cables were neatly plated over on some such that they did not show and on others just had steel patches put over the holes.

 

I guess it will be a case of picking a prototype and findings photos to match what is needed or finding a photo and modelling to match.

 

Roy

 

* keeping in mind that this loco never had MW cables.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Roy Langridge

[Mike at C&M]

Fire bottles appeared from around 2003.

Can it be assumed that 87s only carried these fire bottles when they were in Virgin livery?

[stovepipe]

Here's an official photograph of the roof detail as built - 87001 in 1973. There are some subtle differences to what Hornby have shown on their blog.

 

IMG_0461 by CoverDrive, on Flickr

Edited November 29, 2016 by stovepipe

[cravensdmufan]

Can it be assumed that 87s only carried these fire bottles when they were in Virgin livery?

Checked Modern Locomotives Illustrated No.199 Class 87's which is an excellent reference source.

 

Not one of the BR era liveried ones has fire extinguishers.  Definitely a post privatisation (Virgin) addition.

[stovepipe]

I'm mainly interested in the blue period, and I would agree the high-speed pantographs came in during a 12-month period from March 1984.

 

87101 had RCH/TDM and MW boxes from 1986, several years before the rest of the class.

[298]

 

The photos also show that the MW cables were neatly plated over on some such that they did not show and on others just had steel patches put over the holes.

 

 

I don't quite understand what you mean by that, the only loco that had its MW boxes neatly removed was 86430 (although Bulmarket are also making a very nice job of tidying up the front ends), the 86/4 &6s and 87 all had rectangular blanking plates and a lot even kept bolts in the holes where the original RCH jumper dummy recepticles were mounted (as in both your links) before they were simplified to the lower type.

[sanspareil]

Pushing with the Heljan 86 was alright although the coupling is a bit flimsy so in my experience it bends, and the buffers push on the corridor connector. I think for the 87 it will pretty much be bolted to a WC set for me, so I will investigate a more substantial semi permanent solution.

 

At the same time the HST coupling is pretty resilient when pushing.

 

Just going back a few posts...

 

As far as I recall Heljan 86 uses a bogie mounted coupling as does the Hornby HST.

Edited November 29, 2016 by sanspareil

[tinsley-toton]

BR blue with high speed pantograph 10/05/86

No TDM fitted

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/67444577@N02/6929261535/in/photolist-5uack3-pw4FS5-9NVkWn-bNEpvZ-8VUehy-9ChWCR-decfHY-byjh3t-bWyJDN-fQ4xn9-chJmkN-8Qg7FK-8VRdTc-bMuAmr-5PNA3w-5Dj9iC-CAXDqH-aFpdiM-r1i9DV-fzCciA-qAPPB8-7s8o1B-oMZJ3J-9oEfVu-e88qZq-gzdsK4-iM9CdV-ebVucw-H8DCBh-75FZoY-adnHqe-BQkxpS-byzSn9-ejVT8n-bMuzpB-9iprvV-chHS3J-aVuwHz-iWQasB-iWSiuo-78nWsa-m2H4Bp-cjGjb5-78o2uB-cQiNDS-bWyNcQ-9FzeCz-9iMCfj-64k6kv-rx7Hvz

[159220]

I found myself recently reading about the Brecknell Willis High Speed Pantograph myself of recent with regard to the Hitachi 800 series (and Class 387 after club discussion a few months ago). But naturally the Class 87, namely 87005 is mentioned in the test programme as "a second pantograph was fitted to 87005 in March 1982 for further tests on the WCML"

 

Links: http://www.traintesting.com/Highspeed_pan.htm

http://www.old-dalby.com/Brecknell.htm

http://www.old-dalby.com/HSCCP.htm

http://www.old-dalby.com/Aero_testing.htm

[Roy Langridge]

I don't quite understand what you mean by that, the only loco that had its MW boxes neatly removed was 86430 (although Bulmarket are also making a very nice job of tidying up the front ends), the 86/4 &6s and 87 all had rectangular blanking plates and a lot even kept bolts in the holes where the original RCH jumper dummy recepticles were mounted (as in both your links) before they were simplified to the lower type.

 

Unless there is more than one photo that has been mislabelled, try 86417. I found this on last night and although I can't find it again now, another claiming to be the same loco.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/3931377026/in/photolist-6Zpkqw-xqB42S-7mvCa3-CgBbdC-G7e373-DY2sqb-BfoSkB-cTvMr3-a93JEX-gVR1w9-9RR2vg-Jg6D2-chG6uo-e44e6E-9tE9gf-bw77Ww-a96wCC-a93KMn-a4it7U-aijbPd-a96xpW-a93KtD-a96yZm-aigoEH-a93JhM-a96wL9-a96wod-a93Jca-a96y3h-6mtzH5-78SsZs-byfc8v-a96wVA-wbBVjD-a93J4a-d3LH7q-dovnZ4-a96yfY-a93K9z-67u5Qo-52XBQa-8yWsGo-qZSVst-8yWsZE-a96xwo-BEZUQ-4rtyWH-a96yJd-52XBQv-dWNSUy

 

Again - not my photo.

 

I guess it may have had some damage at some point?

 

Roy

Edited November 30, 2016 by Roy Langridge

[298]

I found myself recently reading about the Brecknell Willis High Speed Pantograph myself of recent with regard to the Hitachi 800 series (and Class 387 after club discussion a few months ago). But naturally the Class 87, namely 87005 is mentioned in the test programme as "a second pantograph was fitted to 87005 in March 1982 for further tests on the WCML"

 

 

 

At this stage, I think Hornby ought to choose which details broadly suit which livery (and go by the old saying of choosing a photo of a loco on a particular day and modelling it in that condition), 87005 also carried a Faiveley pan for a short time in the early 1980's but both events would be considered as a rariety and their inclusion in a general range wouldn't be of much use to modellers wishing to renumber a loco. 

 

Apart from the mid 80's to early 90's when there were variations of the Intercity scheme before they all ended up in Swallow, they pretty much all carried the same scheme anyway and only 87004 and 101 physically looked unique.

 

Unless there is more than one photo that has been mislabelled, try 86417. I found this on last night and although I can't find it again now, another claiming to be the same loco.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/3931377026/in/photolist-6Zpkqw-xqB42S-7mvCa3-CgBbdC-G7e373-DY2sqb-BfoSkB-cTvMr3-a93JEX-gVR1w9-9RR2vg-Jg6D2-chG6uo-e44e6E-9tE9gf-bw77Ww-a96wCC-a93KMn-a4it7U-aijbPd-a96xpW-a93KtD-a96yZm-aigoEH-a93JhM-a96wL9-a96wod-a93Jca-a96y3h-6mtzH5-78SsZs-byfc8v-a96wVA-wbBVjD-a93J4a-d3LH7q-dovnZ4-a96yfY-a93K9z-67u5Qo-52XBQa-8yWsGo-qZSVst-8yWsZE-a96xwo-BEZUQ-4rtyWH-a96yJd-52XBQv-dWNSUy

 

Again - not my photo.

 

I guess it may have had some damage at some point?

 

Roy

 

I did wonder as I probably found the same one on Flickr (on Virgin Mk2's passing Rugby...?) But I've just checked my own collection and found one of it on the scrapline at CE looking like a normal 86/4, the one in your link should be fairly easy to identify as which 86/2 from the front end weathering. I'd post the photo here but it isn't relevant to 87s.

[PM47079]

The NRN aerials would have started appearing from about 1987/88 as the the locos were gradually fitted with The NRN radios. I am guessing the brecknall willis pans started becoming more widespread when the 87s top speed was raised to 110mph again i think it started in the mid eighties

[ThaneofFife]

The NRN aerials would have started appearing from about 1987/88 as the the locos were gradually fitted with The NRN radios. I am guessing the brecknall willis pans started becoming more widespread when the 87s top speed was raised to 110mph again i think it started in the mid eighties

 

think that service started at the beginning of the May 1984 timetable GLA-EUS.  Id like to see a blue 87 based on that 1985-86 period just with the original MU jumpers but high speed pan and the executive liveried locos that followed with the half dark grey and yellow cab fronts but that's just my froth. 

 

and I thought the only 87 to carry a stone faiveley pan was 009 not 005.

[sanspareil]

Just going back to this coupling thing. Hornby are going with the body mounted coupling on the Class 87 as they wernt aware of any dislike/issue with this solution!! I messaged Paul (Hornby rep - see below) and he did politely reply back and very promptly. 

 

I know im not alone in dislike of the Hornby body mounted couplings so if you want to change this you need to message ASAP. I really dont know how they are going to perform with tighter curves when pushing!?!

 

Paul/Hornby rep posting where you can contact him. Note you need to private message him direct by clicking on his name/image on left of posting. See very first post in thread below.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/117322-warley/

Edited November 30, 2016 by sanspareil

[newbryford]

Just going back to this coupling thing. Hornby are going with the body mounted coupling on the Class 87 as they wernt aware of any dislike/issue with this solution!! I messaged Paul (Hornby rep - see below) and he did politely reply back and very promptly. 

 

I know im not alone in dislike of the Hornby body mounted couplings so if you want to change this you need to message ASAP. I really dont know how they are going to perform with tighter curves when pushing!?!

 

 

 

You can incorporate a close coupling mechanism with body mounted couplings. I'm not aware of any bogie coupling stock that has a CCM, but I could easily be proved wrong.

 

Past experience of pushing large rakes is better with body mounted couplings as the bogie can sometimes rotate in the vertical plane whilst pushing if it doesn't have good yaw control. And that applies to coaching stock as well. With body mounted couplings, this can't happen.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[sanspareil]

You can incorporate a close coupling mechanism with body mounted couplings. I'm not aware of any bogie coupling stock that has a CCM, but I could easily be proved wrong.

 

Past experience of pushing large rakes is better with body mounted couplings as the bogie can sometimes rotate in the vertical plane whilst pushing if it doesn't have good yaw control. And that applies to coaching stock as well. With body mounted couplings, this can't happen.

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

I am going to run some tests as haven't done a lot of pushing with body mounted couplers (and not any at high speed). Will test with my other Hornby loco's. I do know that double heading is a right pain with these body mounted couplings on bends/point work. Personally I can say I have never had any issue with a bogie based couplings. I thought there was a majority held view of dislike of the body couplers. I guess how bad it is will heavily depend on your layout also. A straight end to end is going to give a lot less grief that say a shed/loft circuit tail chaser.

Edited November 30, 2016 by sanspareil

[John ks]

With regardes to couplings I would like to see a body mounted pad at the correct height to which I can screw kadee,s

I suspect that I am in the minority with this one

 

 

My preferred kadee for BR stock is a 156 in a 262 box, the NEM Kadee's are bulky ( my opinion)

 

Has the type of drive Mech been described here, I hope it will be all wheel drive(no traction tyres) & pickup with central motor with flywheels

To Hornby's credit they have upgraded some of their loco to this type of drive

if this is the case then I will get at least 1 (I do like things with pantographs on top)

 

Single bogie drives belong to the toy market, (again my opinion) & would be a deal breaker for me

 

John

[Dagworth]

Body mounted couplers with close coupling mechanisms work fine IF you have rigid couplings that cannot flex. Things like the Roco coupling that Hornby sell, or the solid bar couplings that come with Bachmann coaches. If you have flexible couplings like the traditional tension lock then they are not very effective as they will tend to either pull to the side or fail to return to centre on exiting a curve when hauling a heavy train. 

 

Pushing shouldn't be so much of an issue as the coupling will tend to stay centred as that is the shortest (most compressed) position.

 

Personally I prefer body mounted couplers on coaches (kadees within rake) but without close coupling mechs. With reasonable radius curves the close coupling mech is not required. The end of the rake will have a bogie mounted coupler to hook to the loco. On locos I prefer couplers to be bogie mounted.

 

Andi

Edited December 1, 2016 by Dagworth

[ThaneofFife]

BR blue and IC initially.

 

just to pick up on that as I thought it was IC Swallow livery (many others also felt it didn't seem to make sense in that livery as their last Limby model was outshopped in the swallow version) but having read the article in the new January Hornby magazine today it clearly stated Inter-City Executive livery. Without delving into the archives I'm really not certain if the locos ran that scheme after the MU jumper equipment was removed.  Did 87010 run the livery with the later TDM cables?

[ThaneofFife]

can somebody point me in the direction of the Hornby man who asked for any suggestions to be sent via PM-cant recall his name or where to find that original request......wasnt there a combined Hornby Warley announcement thread?

 

Id like to drop him a line on the 87.

[MGR Hooper!]

can somebody point me in the direction of the Hornby man who asked for any suggestions to be sent via PM-cant recall his name or where to find that original request......wasnt there a combined Hornby Warley announcement thread?

 

Id like to drop him a line on the 87.

Mr. Paul Isles

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/117322-warley/

[Titan]

just to pick up on that as I thought it was IC Swallow livery (many others also felt it didn't seem to make sense in that livery as their last Limby model was outshopped in the swallow version) but having read the article in the new January Hornby magazine today it clearly stated Inter-City Executive livery. Without delving into the archives I'm really not certain if the locos ran that scheme after the MU jumper equipment was removed.  Did 87010 run the livery with the later TDM cables?

 

87015 did. I expect there are others.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=imgres&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjk7Ye0_fHQAhVVclAKHSwjB4IQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.martynhilbert.railpic.net%2Fgallery%2Fdisplayimage.php%3Fpid%3D1404%26lang%3Denglish_gb&psig=AFQjCNHXCol3EhOKUqMpspKk4TZ8QegwbQ&ust=1481746340591551