Hornby Class 87 - Confirmed Newly Tooled Version for 2017 !

[wombatofludham]

That's interesting.  It is a bit of a minefield trying to pin down which loco carried what and when as there are examples of IC Swallow being carried by locos with both the original and RCH cables, and conversely IC Exec liveried locos with just RCH cables and plates where the original boxes were.

​If I were Hornby I'd concentrate on blue and IC swallow for now and then do two Exec liveried versions as later releases, one with original fitment jumpers and one with just the RCH cables!

 

On the NRM tie in, as preserved 87001 appears to be exhibited without the original jumpers, with RCH cables and the square headlight, so it'll be interesting if Locomotion do decide to commission an NRM special if they go for as built or as exhibited which would have to use the second bodyshell.

[Mike at C&M]

Might I respectfully suggest that a bit of joined up thinking up thinking be used, and an InterCity Swallow '87' come first so as to tie in with the first release of Oxford Rail Mark 3 hauled stock. Loco number is immaterial

 

No doubt, Executive liveried Mark 3s will follow, and likewise and an Executive liveried 87 as well.

 

We all know how infuriating it is to find out that matching locos and coaches are simply not available. As a retailer, this is one I hear all too regularly. I am sure that a quick conversation between Oxford Rail and Hornby could dovetail the release of 87s and matching Mark 3s to about the same time, at some point in the future.

 

And if Bachmann feel themselves left out, how about another run of 38-352s to form a Ravenscraig - Llanwern steel coil train, with a couple of extra coils  to allow them to rest on their sides on the wagons, rather than within the cradles supplied. Ideal for a couple of 87s on the front, or an 87/86 combination (when the latter is announced)

[PM47079]

I like your thinking!

[Hilux5972]

. I am sure that a quick conversation between Oxford Rail and Hornby could dovetail the release of 87s and matching Mark 3s to about the same time, at some point in the future.

 

I was under the impression that manufacturers weren't allowed to share info like that.

[MGR Hooper!]

I was under the impression that manufacturers weren't allowed to share info like that.

 

My thoughts exactly, but it has been known in the past for manufacturers to collaborate eg: Dapol and Gaugemaster, Dapol and Kato and IIRC Dapol, Gaugemaster and Peco. If anyone doesn't understand my reference I am talking about the train sets Dapol have been releasing over the last few years, the most recent being a year or two ago.

 

If that can be done, it would be nice to have a "Hornby-Oxford branded Train Pack". In saying that I am still more than happy with the Hornby Mk3, they just need NEM couplings IMHO.

[Roy Langridge]

I was under the impression that manufacturers weren't allowed to share info like that.

There would be no restriction on a conversation of what liveries are planned as long as prices are not discussed / agreed. After all, look at Heljan and Peco with the L&B.

 

Roy

[Mike at C&M]

I was under the impression that manufacturers weren't allowed to share info like that.

There are certainly rules against price fixing, but this is not detrimental to the sales of anyone else. Hornby are doing the 87, Oxford the Mark 3s, and we are not aware that anyone else is doing either of these models, subject to the Hornby 2017 announcement not including any Mark 3s

 

Indeed, we already know that Oxford are proposing to do the Blue/grey, and the InterCity Swallow loco-hauled Mark 3s first, and that Hornby have announced the same liveries on their 87s. Neither will lose out by knowing what other liveries the other will do in the months and years ahead, and indeed it will probably benefit their sales if they do know.

 

There is no under-handiness to this, so why shouldn't they share the relevant information about their future plans.

[ThaneofFife]

I don't know the levels of communication between rival manufacturers but it would make sense here to ensure the 87s and Mk3a models complimented each other as far as livery matching goes. 

[E3109]

Been reading this thread with interest.

Like many others, I've found the old Lima 87 to be more than adequate, once it's improved (mechanically at least).

Same goes for the trusty old Hornby 86.

I bought a Heljan 86 and was left very disappointed... sold it on. The main reason was the bodyside grilles which lacked definition.

 

In case anyone isn't aware, the 'rim' around the 86/87 grilles is in fact a gutter, and while nobody could reasonably expect any manufacturer to produce this on a plastic moulding even now, the fact remains that both Hornby (86) and Lima (87) got the gutters pretty much spot on back in the 1980s.

 

One more request please, Mr Hornby.

An original AL6 without zebedees.

Pretty please?

 

ps the colour you're looking for is Monastral (Rail) Blue, and ***NOT*** Electric Blue. 

 

Thanks ;-)

[E3109]

Forgot to add.

Yeah I know this is an 87 thread. But 86s received class 87 doors in the 1980s.

Well, most of them did. But not all!

 

It isn't just a case of double handles. The window radii are completely different and in fact the original class 86 cab doors had droplight glazing.

 Here's a work photo. To this day, a handful of FL's 86/6s have the original cab doors. 86612/637/639.

 

 

 

[adb968008]

I was under the impression that manufacturers weren't allowed to share info like that.

Competitors are allowed to cooperate, as long as it's not in any way price fixing or anti-competitive.

 

Two manufacturers coming together to make a superior product is healthy, and given the small nature of our industry, it would benefit from more of it.

 

Anyone collect air-miles or taken a code share flight ?

Edited December 19, 2016 by adb968008

[JSpencer]

There are certainly rules against price fixing, but this is not detrimental to the sales of anyone else. Hornby are doing the 87, Oxford the Mark 3s, and we are not aware that anyone else is doing either of these models, subject to the Hornby 2017 announcement not including any Mark 3s

 

Indeed, we already know that Oxford are proposing to do the Blue/grey, and the InterCity Swallow loco-hauled Mark 3s first, and that Hornby have announced the same liveries on their 87s. Neither will lose out by knowing what other liveries the other will do in the months and years ahead, and indeed it will probably benefit their sales if they do know.

 

There is no under-handiness to this, so why shouldn't they share the relevant information about their future plans.

 

The underhandiness could come in here if during such a discussion to match colours, Hornby purposely stop doing their Mk 3s and leave the field open to Oxford.

 

Hornby could publish the RAL colour they used (if they are using RAL which don't always match any colour as some claim), Oxford can then make their choice. In anycase, there are enough Blue Hornby items out there for Oxford to figure out what colour to match.

Also Oxford did a "do we match other manufacturer's colours or the real thing?" survey not that long ago.

 

Likewise, is it in Hornby's interest to tell Joe public that there exist other makers of trains? Hornby saying they are working with another make, gives that other make huge visibility to a Joe public that in the main blissfully unaware to alternatives to Hornby. Oxford is the only make out there capable of eventually competing in the toy train sector. Not today no, but maybe in 10 years.

I simply cannot see Hornby saying "thanks for buying a new 87, please visit our rival Oxford for a decent set of Mk 3s, and our rival Bachmann for decent BG to go behind them

 

Conversely the NRM HST prototype is a different subject. Rapido will do the loco parts for the NRM and some other partner may be doing the Mk3s.

Edited December 19, 2016 by JSpencer

[GordonC]

So the question is ... which are we going to see in the shops first ... the Hornby Class 87 or the Bachmann Class 90. Despite being announced (several) years later my money would be on the 87

[PM47079]

Probably the 87 will be out first if Hornby are checking on livery details.

[cravensdmufan]

So the question is ... which are we going to see in the shops first ... the Hornby Class 87 or the Bachmann Class 90. Despite being announced (several) years later my money would be on the 87

Getting a bit fed up with Bachmann lead in times.  Seem to remember sometime back in the distant past pre-ordering FFA Freightliner wagons as well as a couple of Class 90's.

 

Well done Hornby for forging ahead now.  Really looking forward to the 87 (and an 86, please!),

[PM47079]

Yes I preordered the 90 as well. Looks like the 87 will be running on my layout first by a fair margin

[cravensdmufan]

DJMDave mentioned a while ago that he had information that two manufacturers were planning a Class 87 (and 86 too).

 

Wondering if the "other" manuafacturer, whoever that was, has now dropped out?

Edited December 19, 2016 by cravensdmufan

[JSpencer]

History repeats itself it seems.

 

In the 1990s, Bachmann took years to bring out new items. The N class, Mickey mouse tanks, class 150, 158 spring to mind. In those days people complained about it directly in the model shop (no internet forums) and we did get feedback from Bachmann from time to time.

Hornby on the other hand were quite quick, doing almost everything within the year they promised (they had not moved to China yet).

 

They could be beaten by Lima however, the class 92 being such a race that Lima won on all accounts by being 3 months ahead and with - IMHO - a better model (well you had to stick the bits on though!).

 

Once they moved to china, we went through a period of Hornby taking 2 years while Bachmann had got their lead times down to 2 years. It was the golden age with OK lead times, lots of details and cheap (by today's standards) prices.

 

Helas 2008 arrived, Hornby's eggs in one basket factory went bust and things dragged out painfully. Post that, items are coming out faster but prices are twice maybe thrice that and we are now back 1 to 2 year lead times. Bachmann has had issues too causing their range to increase in price and lead times to expand back to what we had in the 1990s. So today we are back where we were in the 1990s as far as lead times go between Bachmann and Hornby.

[JSpencer]

DJMDave mentioned a white ago that he had information that two manufacturers were planning a Class 87 (and 86 too).

 

Wondering if the "other" manuafacturer, whoever that was, has now dropped out?

 

There were some whispers that the Bachmann 90 would be followed by a Bachmann 87 given there were some common parts between them. Now if the 90 tooling was delayed to allow parts to be used in an 87.....

The other contender could be Oxfordrail, though so far they do seem to be producing locos and rolling stock that don't really go togethor. Their 6 wheel  toad brake with a Dean goods will break that.... but they will need to find a modern loco for the Mk3s and Carflats.

I cannot think of another manufacturer who came to the market with loco's and rolling stock that - in its early years - that did not match. (granted : Some have come to the market with Loco's and no rolling stock or vice versa).

[GordonC]

There were some whispers that the Bachmann 90 would be followed by a Bachmann 87 given there were some common parts between them. Now if the 90 tooling was delayed to allow parts to be used in an 87.....

The other contender could be Oxfordrail, though so far they do seem to be producing locos and rolling stock that don't really go togethor. Their 6 wheel  toad brake with a Dean goods will break that.... but they will need to find a modern loco for the Mk3s and Carflats.

I cannot think of another manufacturer who came to the market with loco's and rolling stock that - in its early years - that did not match. (granted : Some have come to the market with Loco's and no rolling stock or vice versa).

 

It must be getting harder to find locos and stock that match up without treading on existing models. The Class 87 and Carflats wouldn't really go together anyway would they? Did 87s ever pull motorail trains with carflats?

 

I'd have expected Classes 81-85 or at most a Class 86 for the AC loco legs of those services

[laurenceb]

 

.

I cannot think of another manufacturer who came to the market with loco's and rolling stock that - in its early years - that did not match. (granted : Some have come to the market with Loco's and no rolling stock or vice versa).

 

Joeff Class 40 and BR Mk 3's

Edited December 19, 2016 by laurenceb

[ThaneofFife]

i was one of those who was thinking the 87 might follow the 90 in the self belief that they could cross parts over.....now the Hornby 87 is being refreshed thats not going to happen but who is to say Bachmann wont go for the Class 86?  the bogies could at least net 86101, 102 and 103!!!!   somebody is supposed to be doing a new 86.......cant see Dapol or Heljan doing it.  Rapido?   nag as we'd have had lots of silhouette cryptic teasers by now......Oxford Rail?  Possible.

[JSpencer]

.

I cannot think of another manufacturer who came to the market with loco's and rolling stock that - in its early years - that did not match. (granted : Some have come to the market with Loco's and no rolling stock or vice versa).

 

 

Joeff Class 40 and BR Mk 3's

This was back in the 70s when the two were both still in service and co-existed so not entirely beyond the realms of possibility. But you would not catch a Radial of Dean goods at the head of a rake of Mk 3s... Edited December 19, 2016 by JSpencer

[298]

Perhaps the missing R number is a 7mm scale release...? After all Heljan seem to be doing good business in this scale and why else would Hornby have one on display...?

[MGR Hooper!]

Perhaps the missing R number is a 7mm scale release...? After all Heljan seem to be doing good business in this scale and why else would Hornby have one on display...?

 

Unfortunately Hornby said that wasn't happening.