Coopercraft Kits

[Bucoops]

I think, on principle, IF there is a new machine and kits start being produced again, I would prefer to avoid them.

 

Stewart

 

I'm struggling with this to be honest - I agree, but if I needed the kits where else would I get them? This coming from someone who had to fight for months for a refund.

 

I think I would possibly buy from a reseller perhaps. I know it would mean Dunn would get some money.

[Ravenser]

The ScaleFour Forum post form Paul Dunn, albeit under a nom de plume, says

 

............

 

I wonder how long it would then be before we start to overlook this saga and start buying CC, Mail Coach and Ian Kirk kits again, when there is no alternative product available. Most regrettable that he didn't take this course earlier and avoided all the ill feeling and bad publicity.

 

First there had better be a good supply of the kits available , and trading on a basis that you can get your kit as you hand over your cash.

 

Secondly those who have paid money for products they have not received need to receive them.

 

I think anyone who has been aware of the present situation would be extremely wary of buying through the website. And if Paul Dunn is selling new production to  people while those who have paid money in the past still have nothing for their cash, the stink will continue. There is no way that people in that situation are going to meekly "take it on the chin" and accept their losses in silence while Mr Dunn happily trades with the rest of the hobby. 

 

In short if he appears again at shows some people will want to have words with him. There is at least one outstanding CCJ against him, and the thought of bailiffs executing it against his stand at a show comes to mind. Those who have lost out will no doubt start approaching exhibition organisers to express their unhappiness

 

I just don't think this can be swept under the carpet and forgotten about.

 

And I'm frankly very sceptical that he will actually resume production. Words are cheap and we've heard these particular words before - they proved empty

 

I'll believe it when I see it.

 

Somebody was talking about a warning website. Is the web address norwegianblue.co.uk available by any chance?

 

This business is an ex-business

Edited April 23, 2018 by Ravenser

[polybear]

I wonder how long it would then be before we start to overlook this saga and start buying CC, Mail Coach and Ian Kirk kits again, when there is no alternative product available. Most regrettable that he didn't take this course earlier and avoided all the ill feeling and bad publicity.

 

It'd have to be via Paypal, using their "Pay after delivery" option....

 

Therefore how can he now pay the considerable sum needed to buy a moulding machine if he can't pay his creditors?

 

There may be some confusion between the words "can't" and "won't"......

 

Ravenser said:

(sorry - the posting went a bit haywire):

In short if he appears again at shows some people will want to have words with him. There is at least one outstanding CCJ against him, and the thought of bailiffs executing it against his stand at a show comes to mind.

 

 

Maybe the S4 Committee could sell tickets

Edited April 23, 2018 by polybear

[Bucoops]

 

It'd have to be via Paypal, using their "Pay after delivery" option....

 

 

 

 

 

Pay after delivery isn't quite the right term for what it is - it's just a delay of 14(?) days - in the model railway world delivery in excess of that time is quite often normal.

[57xx]

I think, on principle, IF there is a new machine and kits start being produced again, I would prefer to avoid them.

 

I don't really need anything from the range anymore and as his antics have blown any form of trust that was once there, he's now on my trader blacklist.

[Colin_McLeod]

He may be funding the machine with credit.

[sharris]

I don't think they wanted blood stains on the floor actually.

 

Mike.

That must be why his stand is always placed as far away as possible from Eileen's Emporium of Sharp Pointy Tools.

[Enterprisingwestern]

He may be funding the machine with credit.

 

Well, that is the Copper Craft way, take other peoples money.

 

Mike.

[chris p bacon]

He may be funding the machine with credit.

 

It would be very expensive credit with a CCJ against him.

 

I'm with JJB, if he has the money for a machine, he should be paying his debts first.

 

I also think you'll not see any kits anyway,  as I doubt the moulds or the operator are up to the job.

[jjb1970]

Indeed, accessing credit if you have CCJs against you could be expensive. On the other hand it's remarkably what an unscrupulous person with a gift for talking can get away with. My brother had a friend who was a walking microcosm for reckless borrowing and lending. He funded a gambling addiction via bank loans claiming he was taking loans for business development etc, he was lying through his teeth but got away with it for several years, when it all imploded and came crashing down around him he was in debt for over half a million to various banks and god knows how much in gambling debts. Very sad really.

[Crichel Down]

I have no comment to make on the substance of this thread, but contributors should be cautious about writing anything that might be libellous. Can you genuinely prove justification if challenged? (I.e. prove the facts you allege) Or be able to claim genuinely that it was fair comment?

[Andy Hayter]

Oh, I don't know. If his forum name there is Great Westen Man, I think Coppercraft fits just fine. It also accords with remarks earlier in this thread suggesting he may not be the most educated man on the planet. 

 

There may be an alternative explanation unfortunately.

 

His website uses the exact same references as well.  Now uneducated he may be but I would suggest that he could have copied Coopercraft from the page header.

 

I fear that perhaps he has accepted that Coopercraft is dead and has transferred all business to Copper craft - but not its liabilities.

 

Pure speculation, but not the first person to try to use such a ruse to avoid creditors.

[chris p bacon]

I have no comment to make on the substance of this thread, but contributors should be cautious about writing anything that might be libellous. Can you genuinely prove justification if challenged? (I.e. prove the facts you allege) Or be able to claim genuinely that it was fair comment?

 

 

Sueing for libel is a civil matter with a substantial amount for costs paid up front.  If he can do that he can pay his debts. . . . . Nope. . .ain't going to happen. .

Edited April 24, 2018 by chris p bacon

[Compound2632]

Seeing for libel is a civil matter with a substantial amount for costs paid up front.  If he can do that he can pay his debts. . . . . Nope. . .ain't going to happen. .

 

One law for the rich, one for the poor - the state of British justice.

[Bucoops]

I have no comment to make on the substance of this thread, but contributors should be cautious about writing anything that might be libellous. Can you genuinely prove justification if challenged? (I.e. prove the facts you allege) Or be able to claim genuinely that it was fair comment?

I have the bank entry of money taken, then several months later the refund. My phone logs will also show multiple calls during the intervening period. Bring it on.

[Oldddudders]

One law for the rich, one for the poor - the state of British justice.

I believe that civil law has always been expensive.

[meil]

 

I also think you'll not see any kits anyway,  as I doubt the moulds or the operator are up to the job.

Does he have the mould tools? As regards the Slater's kits I somehow doubt that he does.

[Captain Kernow]

I think that is a false dichotomy. The sums he owes to persons will be quite modest given the nature of the kits he purports to produce. We have had a rather full and detailed account of the efforts of one person to reclaim money owed, including court proceedings, use of bailiffs and even assistance from a newspaper contributor, and I have no reason to doubt that story or the others on the long thread which was closed. Therefore he legally owes money and has evaded paying in spite of at least one court judgement. Therefore how can he now pay the considerable sum needed to buy a moulding machine if he can't pay his creditors? If he has the money to invest in his business then he has the money to repay his creditors. Whether I'd like to see his kits re-appear is irrelevant really, it is a simple matter that if you owe money then you repay that money before opening the cheque book to spend for your own benefit.

Sorry, not a 'false dichotomy' in the slightest.

 

Yes, he owes money and if there is a CCJ against him, so be it. Yes, he should be repaying his creditors.

 

But are you really saying that you'd rather see him go under completely and pay what you yourself have said is probably a 'quite modest' amount to his creditors, rather than wait just a bit longer and see him generate some sustainable income, which can not only pay all creditors off but can also then re-establish the range.

 

There have been a fair few people expressing concern that the kits would no longer be available. Is this also not important for those people?

 

And if the range was 'up and running' again, that would make it more attractive to any future potential purchaser (who admittedly might be a bit more reliable as a supplier).

 

I don't really need anything from the range anymore and as his antics have blown any form of trust that was once there, he's now on my trader blacklist.

Well, that's you sorted, then. Jolly good.

 

 

I'm with JJB, if he has the money for a machine, he should be paying his debts first.

 

In an ideal world, perhaps, but who said this was an ideal world? My point above refers.

 

 

I also think you'll not see any kits anyway,  as I doubt the moulds or the operator are up to the job.

Thanks for sharing your opinion. You might be right, or you might not.

 

 

On the other hand it's remarkably what an unscrupulous person with a gift for talking can get away with. 

Really? Are we talking about the same person that I have met at shows here?

 

 

I'm struggling with this to be honest - I agree, but if I needed the kits where else would I get them? This coming from someone who had to fight for months for a refund.

 

I think I would possibly buy from a reseller perhaps. I know it would mean Dunn would get some money.

So you want the kits (seemingly) but you don't want Paul Dunn to benefit financially from this?

 

In that case, I hope you find what you want second hand on E-Bay.

[chris p bacon]

Does he have the mould tools? As regards the Slater's kits I somehow doubt that he does.

 

He certainly has the Kirk LNER ones, and you'd think he must have the Coopercraft ones. 

[drduncan]

I have to wonder if this thread is achieving anything. Perhaps it should be locked (again)?

DrDuncan

[Andrew F]

I have to wonder if this thread is achieving anything. Perhaps it should be locked (again)?

DrDuncan

 

I don't think it should be locked, especially considering the latest announcement about a new moulding machine. Why do people want to lock threads?

[jjb1970]

Sorry, not a 'false dichotomy' in the slightest.

 

Yes, he owes money and if there is a CCJ against him, so be it. Yes, he should be repaying his creditors.

 

But are you really saying that you'd rather see him go under completely and pay what you yourself have said is probably a 'quite modest' amount to his creditors, rather than wait just a bit longer and see him generate some sustainable income, which can not only pay all creditors off but can also then re-establish the range.

 

There have been a fair few people expressing concern that the kits would no longer be available. Is this also not important for those people?

 

And if the range was 'up and running' again, that would make it more attractive to any future potential purchaser (who admittedly might be a bit more reliable as a supplier).

 

Well, that's you sorted, then. Jolly good.

 

 

In an ideal world, perhaps, but who said this was an ideal world? My point above refers.

 

 

Thanks for sharing your opinion. You might be right, or you might not.

 

 

Really? Are we talking about the same person that I have met at shows here?

 

 

So you want the kits (seemingly) but you don't want Paul Dunn to benefit financially from this?

 

In that case, I hope you find what you want second hand on E-Bay.

My comment on people who can talk their way into anything was a general observation based on people I've met and not aimed specifically at the person who owns Coopercraft. I probably could have worded that better, sorry.

 

On the other point, I really think any business should refund sums owed before spending elsewhere and that if it can't afford to do that then it probably doesn't have the financial stability and resource to operate. However, if a proprietor wants to do that then I think the decent thing to do is to ask those owed sums to agree to a proposal, presumably including some sort of reward for their forebearance.

 

I don't want to see anybody shut down here, I just think that if people are owed money and there are CCJs out against a business then those debts should take priority. If it is impossible to both repay those people and invest in the business then yes I would rather see people get what they are owed.

[chris p bacon]

easier to answer in Post 

Yes, he owes money and if there is a CCJ against him, so be it. Yes, he should be repaying his creditors.

 

I'm glad you agree he should be paying back monies he has taken by deception, should he funding other purchases before doing this though ?

 

But are you really saying that you'd rather see him go under completely and pay what you yourself have said is probably a 'quite modest' amount to his creditors, rather than wait just a bit longer and see him generate some sustainable income, which can not only pay all creditors off but can also then re-establish the range.

 

How do you know he can generate 'Substantial income' ? he might generate just enough income to run the machine and pay the power bill and completely ignore all those he's scammed from

 

There have been a fair few people expressing concern that the kits would no longer be available. Is this also not important for those people?

 

The kits aren't available now and haven't been for some years.

 

And if the range was 'up and running' again, that would make it more attractive to any future potential purchaser (who admittedly might be a bit more reliable as a supplier).

 

He could have sold on what moulds and artwork he has some time ago, but instead ignored any enquiries and continued to take money from people.

 

 

In an ideal world, perhaps, but who said this was an ideal world? My point above refers.

 

It's never been an ideal world, but it's made all the harder when deception and downright stealing is defended

 

Thanks for sharing your opinion. You might be right, or you might not.

 

I'm going on the track record of production to date.....Zilch..

 

 

So you want the kits (seemingly) but you don't want Paul Dunn to benefit financially from this?

 

There's your ideal world again Tim.

 

In that case, I hope you find what you want second hand on E-Bay.

 

It's been the only place for years, the current owner certainly hasn't produced any.

 

I know when we've discussed this that I am obviously a lot harder than yourself, but this is business and if he takes money and doesn't supply then he lays himself open to the law and debt collection.

 

At least now those who have taken him to law (Remember the law, the thing that is meant to protect us) know he has an asset that belongs to him/Coopercraft that can be seized.

[DavidH]

At least now those who have taken him to law (Remember the law, the thing that is meant to protect us) know he has an asset that belongs to him/Coopercraft that can be seized.

 

I thought a while back it was stated that tools of trade can't be seized?

[Bucoops]

 

So you want the kits (seemingly) but you don't want Paul Dunn to benefit financially from this?

 

In that case, I hope you find what you want second hand on E-Bay.

 

That's not what I said - I said I would buy from a re-seller, knowing that some of my money would make it to Paul Dunn.

 

I do not want to deal with him personally ever again. Once bitten...