KR Models announce the Fell in OO and N.

[xm607]

23 minutes ago, black and decker boy said:

Modelrail have but in a subtle way (unlike the feet first reviews many years ago by REm).

 

The big problem is that some people do not know what they are looking at, I found that down at the club, yet some do.

[96701]

5 minutes ago, xm607 said:

 

The big problem is that some people do not know what they are looking at, I found that down at the club, yet some do.

Why is that a big problem?

[AY Mod]

2 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

The last two times you posted it I removed it. This time it's a warning.

 

@Georgeconna - why do you find that 'funny'? It isn't wise to get my back up.

[cctransuk]

11 minutes ago, 96701 said:

Why is that a big problem?

 

Looked at from a purely personal perspective, it means that manufacturers can produce poorly researched models, and still find a market for them amongst the poorly informed. 😉

 

CJI.

[big jim]

2 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

Looked at from a purely personal perspective, it means that manufacturers can produce poorly researched models, and still find a market for them amongst the poorly informed. 😉

 

CJI.

with such a niche model I think that’s will always be the case, ill be the first to say I’m one of ‘poorly informed’ and without this thread I’d be none the wiser about the mistakes but there is something about the quirky nature of the model that appeals that means I will look beyond the issues 

 

An underlying thread through the posts appears to be the frustration that the manufacturer was told about the issues on numerous occasions and nothing was done or even thanks given to those who were trying to help out, almost a ‘like it or lump it, it’s late now’ attitude

 

 

[cctransuk]

31 minutes ago, big jim said:

An underlying thread through the posts appears to be the frustration that the manufacturer was told about the issues on numerous occasions and nothing was done or even thanks given to those who were trying to help out, almost a ‘like it or lump it, it’s late now’ attitude

 

Exactly !!

 

CJI.

[GWR-fan]

While we criticise the big boys for being in general slow to bring to market a new product after a major announcement sometimes years earlier,  the issue with KR Models is their eagerness to sign off on the CAD's and commence tooling (a significant cost to the budget).  The Fell was announced in November 2019,  in April 2020 news that some "minor" changes had come to light but were proceeding with original CAD (implying that tooling had most likely commenced) and in July 2020 the first EP shown on Facebook.

 

Similar circumstances on the now very quiet 4DD and Leader projects.  Basically,  before CADs were shown there was evidence that tooling had commenced on the 4DD.   The manufacturer unfortunately announced their pseudo crowdfunding GT3 right at the time DJM folded,  leaving many wary of any crowdfunded projects.  Keith came in for some criticism due his very "secretive" nature,  not wanting to divulge anything about himself, his life or his past and when members "discovered" his identity by way of social media posts and internet searches he did become very defensive, effectively withdrawing from any discussion on the GT3 project and communicating only by way of personal emails to those who had prepaid on the model.  He seemingly became as stubborn as a mule and resented any attempt at suggestions on the GT3 project.  The initial run did have some issues but were apparently almost totally resolved in subsequent runs.

 

He comes across as a "my way or the highway" character, unwilling to accept advice on any project,  although possibly the "Bellerphon" and the Consett wagons may have softened his resolve a little as he seemed open to advice and criticism on those.  It seems that the son may well have been the person responsible for the research on the Fell, a task most would not like to undertake without resorting to professional assistance and paying for that expertise.  For KR Models it is all about the bottom line.  The Jenny Kirk interview with Keith Snr showed his reluctance to supply the retail trade as he was apparently reluctant to sell the model at wholesale level and let others make money on his project.  Did he accept finance from a retail outlet to allow the project to proceed thus opening the market to a retailer? 

 

Will the market's level of acceptance of the Fell impact the future of other projects?  

[Colin_McLeod]

I agree with this post by GWR-fan.

[cctransuk]

9 minutes ago, GWR-fan said:

While we criticise the big boys for being in general slow to bring to market a new product after a major announcement sometimes years earlier,  the issue with KR Models is their eagerness to sign off on the CAD's and commence tooling (a significant cost to the budget).  The Fell was announced in November 2019,  in April 2020 news that some "minor" changes had come to light but were proceeding with original CAD (implying that tooling had most likely commenced) and in July 2020 the first EP shown on Facebook.

 

Similar circumstances on the now very quiet 4DD and Leader projects.  Basically,  before CADs were shown there was evidence that tooling had commenced on the 4DD.   The manufacturer unfortunately announced their pseudo crowdfunding GT3 right at the time DJM folded,  leaving many wary of any crowdfunded projects.  Keith came in for some criticism due his very "secretive" nature,  not wanting to divulge anything about himself, his life or his past and when members "discovered" his identity by way of social media posts and internet searches he did become very defensive, effectively withdrawing from any discussion on the GT3 project and communicating only by way of personal emails to those who had prepaid on the model.  He seemingly became as stubborn as a mule and resented any attempt at suggestions on the GT3 project.  The initial run did have some issues but were apparently almost totally resolved in subsequent runs.

 

He comes across as a "my way or the highway" character, unwilling to accept advice on any project,  although possibly the "Bellerphon" and the Consett wagons may have softened his resolve a little as he seemed open to advice and criticism on those.  It seems that the son may well have been the person responsible for the research on the Fell, a task most would not like to undertake without resorting to professional assistance and paying for that expertise.  For KR Models it is all about the bottom line.  The Jenny Kirk interview with Keith Snr showed his reluctance to supply the retail trade as he was apparently reluctant to sell the model at wholesale level and let others make money on his project.  Did he accept finance from a retail outlet to allow the project to proceed thus opening the market to a retailer?

 

Summed up in a nutshell !!

 

There is a reason why the established suppliers work in the way that they do, and why new announcements take a considerable time to come to fruition.

 

A newbie comes to the market with very firm ideas about doing it their way - and it was, sooner or later, going to come back and bite them!

 

CJI

[Ian J.]

I suppose there are all sorts of people in life, and that includes those who find it difficult to accept they might be wrong about something. I am personally a 'mea culpa' kind of guy. I accept when I make an error and do my best to correct it, rather than bluster and attempt to save face. I think the AS folk might be similar to me, but I don't know the about the people who run Rapido, Revolution or Cavalex. However, KR's folk are less able to do so, something they share with Heljan and Dapol. Bachmann and Hornby I'm not able to comment on.

[Colin_McLeod]

5 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

@Georgeconna - why do you find that 'funny'? It isn't wise to get my back up.

 

In my case, the fact that you repeated the somewhat funny Victor Meldrew post did give me the impression that your post was also in a light hearted vein, especially since cctransuk also joined in the fun.  It seems Georgecomma and I may have got it wrong.  

Edited October 4, 2022 by Colin_McLeod

[cctransuk]

1 minute ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

In my case, the fact that you repeated the somewhat funny Victor Meldrew post did give me the impression that your post was also in a light hearted vein, especially since cctransuk had already joined in the fun.  It seems Georgecomma and I may have got it wrong.  

 

I entered "the fun" because I believe that Georgecomma's type of clever-a*se are most easily deflated by being taken seriously.😠

 

CJI.

[AY Mod]

He has form so I was just calling him out on his silly attitude.

[Legend]

I think it's right that people point out errors. I'm certainly better informed now thanks to these posts 

 

If manufacturers can incorporate changes into models, then of course they should, it probably costs just the same to get it right as get it wrong at the early stage.  However, if it has gone to tooling, I suppose its past the point of no return.  But does this mean that a model is automatically rubbish?   I must also be one of the "poorly informed", but to me this looks like a Fell. Yes, I know there are wrong aspects but it's the only Fell you are likely to get, its reasonably priced for what is a prototype with limited appeal and seems to have a good mechanism (if you check the pick-ups). So instead of looking at every detail I think you have to consider the model in the round.  On balance some will find they can't accept the compromise others will happily accept it.  You have to accept each other's point of view. No one should be described as a pedant for being critical and similarly others should not be less thought of because they are prepared to accept compromise.

It's a broad church.

 

I just hope KR learn from it, are not put off, make money on it, and go on to produce a Class 303 Blue Train. And no, I won't care if there's a grill out of place as long as it looks like a blue train.

[jjb1970]

16 minutes ago, Legend said:

I think it's right that people point out errors. I'm certainly better informed now thanks to these posts 

 

If manufacturers can incorporate changes into models, then of course they should, it probably costs just the same to get it right as get it wrong at the early stage.  However, if it has gone to tooling, I suppose its past the point of no return.  But does this mean that a model is automatically rubbish?   I must also be one of the "poorly informed", but to me this looks like a Fell. Yes, I know there are wrong aspects but it's the only Fell you are likely to get, its reasonably priced for what is a prototype with limited appeal and seems to have a good mechanism (if you check the pick-ups). So instead of looking at every detail I think you have to consider the model in the round.  On balance some will find they can't accept the compromise others will happily accept it.  You have to accept each other's point of view. No one should be described as a pedant for being critical and similarly others should not be less thought of because they are prepared to accept compromise.

It's a broad church.

 

I just hope KR learn from it, are not put off, make money on it, and go on to produce a Class 303 Blue Train. And no, I won't care if there's a grill out of place as long as it looks like a blue train.

 

I think that's a perfectly reasonable view, and I don't begrudge anyone buying this model and enjoying it. Not for me but I'm sure others would question some of my decisions.

[Oldddudders]

I suspect cash-flow is a major driver of timescales for the smaller manufacturer. The costs in China can be considerable, and if a business has to borrow money up front, getting the product to market is crucial for repayment. In that respect, glossing over inaccuracies is a route to being able to carry on eating. 

 

Covid, and the elongation of all life's timescales therefrom, will not have helped, and I hear informally of much bigger companies than KR who have had to cut their coat a bit shorter.

 

More than one poster has said here he is delighted with the Fell, irrespective of its inaccuracies. Much of the market will not be aware of the deficiencies identified here, and will enjoy the unusual mech as it trundles along. And it is, and will remain for many years, the only RTR Fell in OO. The JE kit will continue to offer high levels of accuracy for those with the skills to release its potential, and paint and decorate it to a high standard, but they remain a relatively small, maybe diminishing, minority of modellers. 

[The Stationmaster]

11 minutes ago, Legend said:

I think it's right that people point out errors. I'm certainly better informed now thanks to these posts 

 

If manufacturers can incorporate changes into models, then of course they should, it probably costs just the same to get it right as get it wrong at the early stage.  However, if it has gone to tooling, I suppose its past the point of no return.  But does this mean that a model is automatically rubbish?   I must also be one of the "poorly informed", but to me this looks like a Fell. Yes, I know there are wrong aspects but it's the only Fell you are likely to get, its reasonably priced for what is a prototype with limited appeal and seems to have a good mechanism (if you check the pick-ups). So instead of looking at every detail I think you have to consider the model in the round.  On balance some will find they can't accept the compromise others will happily accept it.  You have to accept each other's point of view. No one should be described as a pedant for being critical and similarly others should not be less thought of because they are prepared to accept compromise.

It's a broad church.

 

I just hope KR learn from it, are not put off, make money on it, and go on to produce a Class 303 Blue Train. And no, I won't care if there's a grill out of place as long as it looks like a blue train.

Good stuff but I think the point here goes a bit deeper than that.  Help was offered, references are available on the 'net, and critically there are on the 'net two photos that very clearly and unarguably show the separate sides of the loco albeit when in green livery.  But it has to be said that the boiler water fillers were hardly likely to have been moved and why on earth would the access steps etc be in a different place from the filler when they aligned with it on the other side?  It would have cost no more to get it right than it cost to get it wrong

 

As others have said no doubt some people won't know what is wrong, some as we have seen are happy because it's the only r-t-r Fell in town, while some will send it back and get a refund.  The final choice is with the customer and that is as it should be.  

 

But with something which was a bit of a rarity in the first place doing it wrong very firmly queers the pitch for anybody else to do it correctly as an r-t-r model because the market will have gone.   And that is my biggest grouse about this sort of thing especially when there are literally no good reasons for making such a hash of things.   The market for 'rarities' is inevitably limited which means there's usually only the one chance in a couple of decades or more to do something in r-t-r as a commercial proposition.

[chris p bacon]

13 hours ago, GWR-fan said:

It seems that the son may well have been the person responsible for the research on the Fell,

 

I think there was dual responsibility there, but the buck stops with KR senior.

 

In the early part of the GT3 thread KR senior posted that he had a very good relationship with the factory and could have as many EP's as he wanted. This was questioned as it is certainly not how the factories negotiate their contracts.  KR may well have assumed that this was the same for the Fell and in usual bullish manner pushed forward through CAD to an EP so that he could increase take up. Comments to the EP showed that various modifications were required and at this point KR finds that changes to tooling and further EP's are going to cost $$$$$ (serious cash, not pennies) at this point the Fell took the direction it did as no further money was going to be spent due to either a lack of cashflow or just an unwillingness to reduce profit. There can be no other reason.

 

As for Michael, is he still actually part of KR Models ? I suspect not but happy to be proved wrong. 

A simple search of KR's VAT number on the new KRmodels.net site goes to an accommodation address in Telford for a multi company registrar. The website only gives details for KR senior in Canada and any mention of Michael has been removed.  I don't access Facebook and MR well may be there, but there seem to have been some changes to KR in the last few months that have been explained away as 'technical issues' when it looks more like the company has shifted all to Canada, with nothing here in the UK except the use of a logistics company to send orders out (many of which appear to be wrong pointing to not enough admin back up looking after the customer database/order schedule)

 

The model itself is a missed opportunity, and it's a first to see a manufacturer actually make a worse model for its second offering. No doubt it will win Hornby Magazine 'Model of the Year'...

 

1 hour ago, Legend said:

I just hope KR learn from it, are not put off, make money on it, and go on to produce a Class 303 Blue Train. And no, I won't care if there's a grill out of place as long as it looks like a blue train.

 

I'm afraid I disagree, I rather hope they leave it to others who can do a better job.

Edited October 5, 2022 by chris p bacon

[jjb1970]

One reason this annoys me so much is that KR are doing two holy grail models, the Fell and the Leader. I won't pre-order a Leader as I just have no confidence in KR, and as the Station Master says, both are such niche subjects that it is unlikely anyone else will do them RTR now. 

[Colin_McLeod]

57 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

it is unlikely anyone else will do them RTR now. 

 

True, but then there was nothing stopping anyone else from doing them RTR up to now, yet they didn't. 😥

[MidlandRed]

Whilst I can understand some of the ire from some members in this thread who pointed out (for many people) minor inaccuracies (even if it is a boiler filler position) on this thread - it appears it was too late to alter it, and I think people ought to know facts before jumping to the conclusion it was simply the proprietor being bloody minded or whatever and ignoring them (which most likely isn’t the case).

 

The key question, does it look like the Fell - well as a friend has one, I can tell you it does. I’m sure for many people (as per @big jim‘s post above), that is good enough. The fact there are a few rivets (or a boiler filler) misplaced may be the case but the level of criticism here is rather high considering! After all this prototype is a very esoteric one and given its very very sporadic use over a short period of time, we should be glad someone has taken the trouble to model it. 
 

Quite frankly no RTR model is perfect and although one or two manufacturers freely request feedback from the public via forums, and standards are rising, there seems to be a tendency for rivet counting and restated criticism against new models (well from many manufacturers anyway). There is a point at which it ceases to be informative and extends into ‘grumpy old mandom’!!! 
 

Let’s hope the standards of the recent Manor (Dapol), 9F (Hornby), and class 37 (Bachmann), despite compromises in them are continued. The Fell is a slightly less detailed model, and has one or two inaccuracies (dependent on your viewpoint, some people may consider them rivet counting), but it definitely captures the look and quirky experimental nature of a short lived prototype. I personally prefer the black liveried version (personal preference)!! 

Edited October 5, 2022 by MidlandRed

[jjb1970]

4 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

True, but then there was nothing stopping anyone else from doing them RTR up to now, yet they didn't. 😥

 

That's true. I kind of hoped Kernow or Heljan might do them, as they're both up to doing difficult subjects.

[Pandora]

Putting the problem of the roof fillers aside, I believe the issue with side grilles  may be a factory error at the plastic injection moulding stage.

There should be tooling pieces known as Sliders.  Sliders with four grills/no doors,  Sliders with two grills/two doors. The  correct Sliders are fitted to the Injection Tool for the version required.

I believe the Operator got it wrong on the day. 

I wait for a statement from KR,  perhaps the Factory may admit to the error on their part, and (I hope) agree to produce replacement bodies with the correct grille arrangement for KR to supply free of charge to customers.

Recall the first Heljan Clayton, the motor issue,  we received new chassis free of charge.

Perhaps we will have new Fell bodies too.

[woodenhead]

10 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

 

That's true. I kind of hoped Kernow or Heljan might do them, as they're both up to doing difficult subjects.

Not sure Kernow would have looked at it, they have a preference for items within the area of their shop locations and the Fell visited neither.

 

If Heljan had done it, probably would have had some other approximation of era which would have displeased potential purchasers.

 

I think the underlying methodology being applied by KR Models is driving the outcomes - they potentially apply a strict hold on costs and once the funding budgeted for development is used up they move to production warts and all.  Potentially more time in the research stage before tooling would resolve problems without eating too much into the development costs.  It will be interesting to see what comes with the 4DD which was apparently in tooling whilst the CADs were still being worked on as well.

[Bucoops]

38 minutes ago, MidlandRed said:

Whilst I can understand some of the ire from some members in this thread who pointed out (for many people) minor inaccuracies (even if it is a boiler filler position) on this thread - it appears it was too late to alter it, and I think people ought to know facts before jumping to the conclusion it was simply the proprietor being bloody minded or whatever and ignoring them (which most likely isn’t the case).

 

From what I have seen and read it is anything but minor for the Fell. Water boiler fillers are one small example.