KR Models announce the Fell in OO and N.

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, Jitmen said:

Both sides shifted 

May need to lift the keeper plate and resit the wheel if just the wheel shifted, though i’d want to understand why (maybe a stripped gear or something loose thats allowing the wheel to shift).

 

if the one crank has shifted on its axle, you may need to requarter them, then consider gluing the crank onto the axle down after testing.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 18, 2022 by adb968008

[boxbrownie]

But of course we don’t want to keep moaning about the quality eh? 😁

[Jitmen]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

May need to lift the keeper plate and resit the wheel if just the wheel shifted, though i’d want to understand why (maybe a stripped gear or something loose thats allowing the wheel to shift).

 

if the one crank has shifted on its axle, you may need to requarter them, then consider gluing the crank down after testing.

 

 

 

 

Not sure how to do that if I’m honest? 

[adb968008]

Ive done a tear down on mine tonight to understand how its put together.

 

 

 its actually quite a clever design, basically an 8 wheel bogie, sat fixed (no lateral swing) inside the chassis, and hence the body.

 

Much of this design, I found several reminisces of older Heljan styles in several places (body, bogie and board design) , starting with accessing the body which requires removing 4 buffers and 4 screws behind them in the chassis..

 

mine is DCC ready, but it comes with a pre fitted speaker. The circuit board design again looks familiar with track inputs and the motor in the middle all using JST  connectors.

Interestingly the body has a few giveaways about future potential… the roof vents are a separate insert, which means replacing these with alternative styles in the future is possible. 

The body too reveals moulding line seams inside which suggest this isnt a 1 piece, but maybe slides, at least on the body side grill / bonnet and front grill being a separate slide tooling piece to the main body… Maybe alternate body sides may appear in the future ?

 

onto the chassis… the wheel base is basically a regular style diesel bogie, screwed into the chassis..
 

 

To remove it isnt straight forward though…

 

1. You need to disconnect the pickup wire from the board.

2. Then unscrew the board, 3. unscrew the motor retainer, 4. disconnect the motor, 5. lift out the motor so it cleanly separate from the shaft.

6. Then tease out the shaft from the gear box which is clipped into the gear box.

7. Remove the gear box retaining clip, which feels superfluous.. it neither holds in the bogie in the frame nor does it hold the gearbox together… (as the gearbox is glued together !!).

Then the ugly bit.. 8. you need to unglue the pickup wires from the side of the bogie frame !

9. Remove the bottom of the 8 axleboxes from under each wheel, and push down on the gear box tower to lower out the bogie.

 

 

10. once done you can then unscrew the keeper plate with the 6 screws that holds the wheels in, carefully lower out the pickup wires which are both soldered and glued to the keeper plate and hence onto the wheel pickup wipers.

A screw map above, from left to right laid out in order…

 

The motor looks like a half size Laisdcc oo motor with single shaft, small flywheel. Its lower rpm hence the model isn't overly fast, but isn't too slow either.

 

For the wheels, they have bearings, which was the root behind the poor performance of mine, it was oscillating and turns out one wheelset didn't have the bearings properly seated into the bearing boxes (shown bellow). Had I not rectified this, at some point the pressure would have gone to the rods which although metal are very soft and flimsy… I would urge to look for this.
 

Incase i need to access in the future, I have not reglued ! The wires to the frame, this would make removal of the keeper plate much easier in the future. I refitted the bogie frame to the chassis.. looking at the bogie and the hole in the frame, I suspect at some point this was designed to rotate within the frame, but later redesigned to fix/screw it to the frame.

The bogie itself is two piece held together by screws and glue! 

Note 6 of 8 wheels are geared, leaving one ungeared which I found odd, it even looks like its designed to be 8, and all wheels are geared.

The wheels are quartered ok and the cranks are tight, however in the bogie cradle, there is a good 2mm of slop!!, which means 4mm sideways movement between the rods, however they do rely on gearing to hold it tight. 
 

(note the bending on the top right rod, a result of the bearing not being sat in its cup).

 

Note: The motor tops out at 0.2a at just over 70% power, so circa 9 volts.

0.2a is quite high comparably, (other recent models are quite happy with 0.1a) and it looks like a 9v motor, above 70% your just generating heat and risk shortening the motors life by giving it a full 12v.

The model starts unevenly at 0.1a with some wheels moving slightly before others but is convincingly smooth there after.

 

overall impressions

The model feels a bit old school in its design with modern updates. Its certainly not a bad model technically, but equally it is not a great one either. There are definitely lessons that could be learned for the future.
As regards the body my thoughts are inline with others.

 

positives..

 

The use of a bogie mounted in the frame is clever.
The use of jst connectors is better than soldered connections to the board

The model has led lighting in both directions of the cabs and front/rear lights, but without control on DC.

Cab detail is present but rudimentary.

 

Negatives

 

Other manufacturers separate the keeper plate from the pickups (and are using spring contacts rather than the Triang style pickup arrangement) making access easier.

Too much movement in the wheels, and the rods do not have strength to hold the wheelbase shape

I can see this being a challenge for maintenance, but that the points that need maintaining will be initally a challenge to access.

 

 

 

 

useful notes:

 

1. By ensuring the pickup wires are not glued to the bogie frame, I can now access the wheels without removing the bogie.. just disconnect the jst and cut out steps 2 - 9. 
2. Motor operation, stop at 70% power it should ensure longer motor life.

 

 

 

Edited November 19, 2022 by adb968008

[zoomer1979]

4 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Ive done a tear down on mine tonight to understand how its put together.

 

 

 its actually quite a clever design, basically an 8 wheel bogie, sat fixed (no lateral swing) inside the chassis, and hence the body.

 

Much of this design, I found reminisces older Heljan styles in several places, starting with accessing the body which requires removing 4 buffers and 4 screws behind them in the chassis..

 

mine is DCC ready, but it comes with a pre fitted speaker. The circuit board design again looks familiar with track inputs and the motor in the middle all using JST  connectors.

Interestingly the body has a few giveaways about future potential… the roof vents are a separate insert, which means replacing these with alternative styles in the future is possible. 

The body too reveals moulding line seams inside which suggest this isnt a 1 piece, but maybe slides, at least on the body side grill / bonnet and front grill being a separate slide tooling piece to the main body… Maybe alternate body sides may appear in the future ?

 

onto the chassis… the wheel base is basically a regular style diesel bogie, screwed into the chassis..
 

 

To remove it isnt straight forward though…

 

1. You need to disconnect the pickup wire from the board.

2. Then unscrew the board, 3. unscrew the motor retainer, 4. disconnect the motor, 5. lift out the motor so it cleanly separate from the shaft.

6. Then tease out the shaft from the gear box which is clipped into the gear box.

7. Remove the gear box retaining clip, which feels superfluous.. it neither holds in the bogie in the frame nor does it hold the gearbox together… (as the gearbox is glued together !!).

Then the ugly bit.. 8. you need to unglue the pickup wires from the side of the bogie frame !

9. Remove the bottom of the 8 axleboxes from under each wheel, and push down on the gear box tower to lower out the bogie.

 

 

10. once done you can then unscrew the keeper plate with the 6 screws that holds the wheels in, carefully lower out the pickup wires which are both soldered and glued to the keeper plate and hence onto the wheel pickup wipers.

A screw map above, from left to right laid out in order…

 

The motor looks like a half size Laisdcc oo motor with single shaft, small flywheel. Its lower rpm hence the model isn't overly fast, but isn't too slow either.

 

For the wheels, they have bearings, which was the root behind the poor performance of mine, it was oscillating and turns out one wheelset didn't have the bearings properly seated into the bearing boxes (shown bellow). Had I not rectified this, at some point the pressure would have gone to the rods which although metal are very soft and flimsy… I would urge to look for this.
 

Incase i need to access in the future, I have not reglued ! The wires to the frame, this would make removal of the keeper plate much easier in the future. I refitted the bogie frame to the chassis.. looking at the bogie and the hole in the frame, I suspect at some point this was designed to rotate within the frame, but later redesigned to fix/screw it to the frame.

The bogie itself is two piece held together by screws and glue! 

The wheels are quartered ok and the cranks are tight, however in the bogie cradle, there is a good 2mm of slop!!, which means 4mm sideways movement between the rods, however they do rely on gearing to hold it tight. 
 

(note the bending on the top right rod, a result of the bearing not being sat in its cup).

 

The motor tops out at 0.2a at just over 70% power, so circa 9 volts.

 

overall impressions

The model feels a bit old school in its design with modern updates. Its certainly not a bad model technically, but equally it is not a great one either. There are definitely lessons that could be learned for the future.
As regards the body my thoughts are inline with others.

 

positives..

 

The use of a bogie mounted in the frame is clever.
The use of jst connectors is better than soldered connections to the board

The model has led lighting in both directions of the cabs and front/rear lights, but without control on DC.

Cab detail is present but rudimentary.

 

Negatives

 

Other manufacturers separate the keeper plate from the pickups (and are using spring contacts rather than the Triang style pickup arrangement) making access easier.

Too much movement in the wheels, and the rods do not have strength to hold the wheelbase shape

I can see this being a challenge for maintenance, but that the points that need maintaining will be initally a challenge to access.

 

 

 

Excellent tear down, balanced and informative. I found that it was quite easy for the wheels and therefore the fly cranks to move on the axles, meaning quartering and synchronization was easily lost. Something that could also cause bending of the delicate rods, which could definitely do with being stronger.

Neil.

[Jenny Emily]

I’ve been doing repairs on returned Fells, and your teardown is more thorough than I’ve needed to do! 
 

Incidentally, I don’t work for KRModels despite what poorly informed people think. I know Mike, and offered to go through the returned locos to see what could be repaired. 
 

it is possible to lift the keeper plate without disconnecting it from the model: undo the six screws and carefully lever it up without stressing the soldered wires. This then allows pickup adjustment and even replacement of wheelsets. 
 

I’ve been through all the returned models, and there were only a handful that weren’t fixed as they were broken for parts. Given the full production is in the thousands, the return level is quite low. 
 

most common reasons for return were actually poorly adjusted pickups. Next most common was loose brake rigging. Wheels moving on the axles causing locking up accounted for surprisingly few. Most of these were caused by quartering being slightly out on outer axles and it is easy to pull wheels off the axles in situ and adjust the quartering. Very few models had duff bushes causing a wheel to spin on the axle - I harvested good wheels from donor models to fix others in this instance. I suggest if you are concerned at a wobbly wheel then try adding loctite to the bush. 
 

I’ve filmed a video guide to fixing loose brake rigging and adjusting pickups in minutes and it will be uploaded in the coming week or so. 
 

 

Edited November 19, 2022 by Jenny Emily
Spelling

[adb968008]

4 hours ago, Jenny Emily said:

I’ve been doing repairs on returned Fells, and your teardown is more thorough than I’ve needed to do!

 

Thanks, my reason was on the opening line.. “understand how its put together.”.

 

However more importantly, for the audience…

 

It is actually reassuring that you have highlighted that Warranty support is available as is a source of spares!

 

4 hours ago, Jenny Emily said:

 

 

 

it is possible to lift the keeper plate without disconnecting it from the model: undo the six screws and carefully lever it up without stressing the soldered wires. This then allows pickup adjustment and even replacement of wheelsets. 
 

Agreed, however with wires glued to the bogie frame side, its constricted. I’m not sure why this was done it doesnt look neccessary. Mine is now unglued and access in the future to remove the keeper plate will be much easier.

 

Other companies have moved on from a one piece keeper plate / wiper model, some dont even use wires anymore !

 

 

4 hours ago, Jenny Emily said:

Very few models had duff bushes causing a wheel to spin on the axle - I harvested good wheels from donor models to fix others in this instance. I suggest if you are concerned at a wobbly wheel then try adding loctite to the bush. 

Agreed, mine was a bearing not sat in its cup causing oscillation. Quartering wasn't the issue, but left untreated that oscillation could easily transposed to the rods.

 

I think bearings mis-seated in cups, is something to highlight.

 

 

Edited November 19, 2022 by adb968008

[Michael Hodgson]

As everybody seems to think the side rods are too flimsy, wouldn't it be a good opportunity for somebody to offer repalcement beefier coupling rods?  Personally I'd rather have rods strong enough to keep the loco running even if that means they a little bit overscale

[cctransuk]

3 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

As everybody seems to think the side rods are too flimsy, wouldn't it be a good opportunity for somebody to offer repalcement beefier coupling rods?  Personally I'd rather have rods strong enough to keep the loco running even if that means they a little bit overscale

 

Trouble is - as I understand it - the crankpins are too securely fixed to allow them to be removed.

 

CJI.

[Colin_McLeod]

3 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

As everybody seems to think the side rods are too flimsy, wouldn't it be a good opportunity for somebody to offer repalcement beefier coupling rods?  Personally I'd rather have rods strong enough to keep the loco running even if that means they a little bit overscale

 

Since it's and 'old school' model I have been contemplating an 'old school' solution involving code 100 rail.  Need a means of getting the old ones off first though!

[boxbrownie]

30 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

Since it's and 'old school' model I have been contemplating an 'old school' solution involving code 100 rail.  Need a means of getting the old ones off first though!

If KR Models had spares of the con rods possible soldering/gluing another over would  make a double thickness rod.

[zoomer1979]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

 

Trouble is - as I understand it - the crankpins are too securely fixed to allow them to be removed.

 

CJI.

I got mine off fairly easily with a crank pin spanner. The head size is a wee bit awkward because of the paint, so a touch up will be required once they are back in position.

Neil.

[GWR-fan]

The $64,000.00 question,  are returned items that are repaired as it seems has happened,  reissued as "new" stock to replace those models unable to be repaired,  or are the repaired models returned to the original customer?    In one case mentioned previously a model was returned to a UK address but apparently no replacement was available in the UK.  Mysteriously a "replacement" was soon "found" anf forwarded to the customer.   Several cases have shown that models sent from Canada to replace warranty claims or for customer orders that somehow were overlooked have taken a week or more so where did this mysterious model come from when apparently none were available in the UK?  Did the UK customer received someone else's returned item that had been repaired,  so effectively a used item?

 

Is it usual practice for manufacturers to repair returned warranty items and then reissue as new stock or as replacements when no  local stock is available?   I understand that manufacturers will cannibalise a returned item for parts to service a returned warranty claim and then return to the original customer. 

[cctransuk]

16 minutes ago, GWR-fan said:

The $64,000.00 question,  are returned items that are repaired as it seems has happened,  reissued as "new" stock to replace those models unable to be repaired,  or are the repaired models returned to the original customer?    In one case mentioned previously a model was returned to a UK address but apparently no replacement was available in the UK.  Mysteriously a "replacement" was soon "found" anf forwarded to the customer.   Several cases have shown that models sent from Canada to replace warranty claims or for customer orders that somehow were overlooked have taken a week or more so where did this mysterious model come from when apparently none were available in the UK?  Did the UK customer received someone else's returned item that had been repaired,  so effectively a used item?

 

Is it usual practice for manufacturers to repair returned warranty items and then reissue as new stock or as replacements when no  local stock is available?   I understand that manufacturers will cannibalise a returned item for parts to service a returned warranty claim and then return to the original customer. 

 

Does it matter?

 

The owner of a returned model receives back a model that is indistinguishable from new and operates to his / her satisfaction.

 

If it is not indistinguishable from new, or it does not operate to his her / satisfaction, he / she will presumably return it again for another replacement, or a refund.

 

CJI.

[JSpencer]

On 19/11/2022 at 09:15, Jenny Emily said:

I’ve been doing repairs on returned Fells, and your teardown is more thorough than I’ve needed to do! 
 

Incidentally, I don’t work for KRModels despite what poorly informed people think. I know Mike, and offered to go through the returned locos to see what could be repaired. 
 

it is possible to lift the keeper plate without disconnecting it from the model: undo the six screws and carefully lever it up without stressing the soldered wires. This then allows pickup adjustment and even replacement of wheelsets. 
 

I’ve been through all the returned models, and there were only a handful that weren’t fixed as they were broken for parts. Given the full production is in the thousands, the return level is quite low. 
 

most common reasons for return were actually poorly adjusted pickups. Next most common was loose brake rigging. Wheels moving on the axles causing locking up accounted for surprisingly few. Most of these were caused by quartering being slightly out on outer axles and it is easy to pull wheels off the axles in situ and adjust the quartering. Very few models had duff bushes causing a wheel to spin on the axle - I harvested good wheels from donor models to fix others in this instance. I suggest if you are concerned at a wobbly wheel then try adding loctite to the bush. 
 

I’ve filmed a video guide to fixing loose brake rigging and adjusting pickups in minutes and it will be uploaded in the coming week or so. 
 

 

 

Is it possible to undo the crankpins please ? I find the rods fowl the cranks and there is easily room for a spacer.

 

 

Edited November 22, 2022 by JSpencer

[ColinB]

On 18/11/2022 at 16:38, Jitmen said:

How do you fix it when it’s out of sync, mines just done that ?

With mine the wheels weren't pressed on securely, hence why it got locked. So you just lever them off and reset them, making sure they are pushed on securely.

[Jenny Emily]

On 21/11/2022 at 11:30, JSpencer said:

 

Is it possible to undo the crankpins please ? I find the rods fowl the cranks and there is easily room for a spacer.

 

 

Yes. They are easy enough to undo either with an appropriate sized nut spinner or a pair of pliers. 
 

The rods are relatively easy to flex if needed and can be gently bent to stop them catching on the cranks. 

[Michael Hodgson]

14 hours ago, Jenny Emily said:

 

The rods are relatively easy to flex if needed and can be gently bent to stop them catching on the cranks. 

I strongly suspect this flimsiness is why they get out of alignment in the first place.🙄

[jsp3970]

My father sent me this, he has the card in his collection, as I recently got a model of 10100. Thought it was interesting to look at.

[Nick Holliday]

Interesting that the minimum radius is only 5 chains. That scales out at a reasonable 4’ 4” in 4mm. And why is it down as a 4-8-0?

[Michael Edge]

4-8-0 is just a mistake writing the card but the 5ch minimum radius is quite large, I would have expected less. There are a couple more interesting points - what does it mean by "motors" in the second entry on the repair card? There's no mention of the frequently reported (and possibly mythical) gearbox failure either.

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

4-8-0 is just a mistake writing the card but the 5ch minimum radius is quite large, I would have expected less. There are a couple more interesting points - what does it mean by "motors" in the second entry on the repair card? There's no mention of the frequently reported (and possibly mythical) gearbox failure either.

A look at the 'class of repair' column tells quite a story and don't overlook the fact that it is simply a record of the type of visit it made to works - not the reasons for the visit.

 

But,  assuming the dates are accurate - which they should be on that sort of record card - a Casual, i.e. unplanned, repair lasting from August 1952 to March 1954  then going back into works a week later for another Casual lasting the better part of 8 months tells a significant story indicating something seriously wrong.   Similarly a whole succession of Casuals following an extended General overhaul (July 1955 - March 1957) also tells a story suggesting some sort of recurrent problem arising from either the General overhaul or something installed or reconditioned during that overhaul.

 

3 hours ago, Nick Holliday said:

Interesting that the minimum radius is only 5 chains. That scales out at a reasonable 4’ 4” in 4mm. And why is it down as a 4-8-0?

 

One online source - possibly not reliable - quotes the wheelbase as 41'4" and don't g forget that it includes what amounts toa. rigid 8 coupled wheelbase between the two carrying bogies.   So in fact it doesn't compare badly with various later dieseles - for example a Hymek with a 37'2" wheelbase had a minimum radius of 4 chains and of course the Peaks, albeit with 51'5" wheelbase were also minimum curve of 5 chains radius.  Some of the later BR Type 4s , and the Deltics, managed to get down to 4.5 or even 4 chains radius.  And don't forget that in many respects these figures were all verging on the academic as they were all at 'dead slow speed' and really only had any practical meaning in some sidings.

[big jim]

What is CWA on the form?

[boxbrownie]

12 minutes ago, big jim said:

What is CWA on the form?

I think that’s the type of boiler.

[uax6]

CWA is Carriage Warming Apparatus.

 

Andy G