Hornby W1 Hush Hush

[Johan DC]

I received my rebuilt garter blue one (from a French shop...) in perfect condition, runs great and silent. Was a bit worried after following this thread. Maybe I was Lucky, but I do like it a lot, apart from the flangless Wheels. Looks like they had something in mind, and changed it later in this simple but unsatisfactory result.   

Would an A4 soundfile be close enough? 

[Locoman58]

3 hours ago, Johan DC said:

Would an A4 soundfile be close enough? 

According to our research the rebuilt W1 must have had deeper and slightly longer steam chuffs than the A4, and probably a deeper chime sound. Due to the larger driver's cab coal shoveling was probably slower, too.

 

You can either use our A4 project on ESU and manually pitch down both chuff and chime sounds (the project is prepared for this).

Or you can wait a few days and we will do that for you and we will also slow down the coal shoveling.

Within the next two weeks we will also readjust our A4 project on D&H decoders to achieve the W1 rebuilt sound.

Saluti

Locoman

[melmerby]

9 minutes ago, Locoman58 said:

According to our research the rebuilt W1 must have had deeper and slightly longer steam chuffs than the A4, and probably a deeper chime sound. Due to the larger driver's cab coal shoveling was probably slower, too.

 

You can either use our A4 project on ESU and manually pitch down both chuff and chime sounds (the project is prepared for this).

Or you can wait a few days and we will do that for you and we will also slow down the coal shoveling.

Within the next two weeks we will also readjust our A4 project on D&H decoders to achieve the W1 rebuilt sound.

Saluti

Locoman

Wasn't there an extension to the tender coal plate so that the fireman didn't have to move too far?

 

The cylinders in later years were reduced from the original 20" x 26" to the same size as an A1 @ 19" x 26", so maybe a similar chuff sound?

However the A1s had 3 x Walschaerts against the W1 with 2 & conjugated drive.

[Locoman58]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

Wasn't there an extension to the tender coal plate so that the fireman didn't have to move too far?

Thank you for your comments, much appreciated.

This is not entirely clear but thanks for pointing it out so we can add a CV for adjustment.

 

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

The cylinders in later years were reduced from the original 20" x 26" to the same size as an A1 @ 19" x 26", so maybe a similar chuff sound?

However the A1s had 3 x Walschaerts against the W1 with 2 & conjugated drive.

Absolutely not similar to an A1 with 3 x Walschaerts as the rebuilt W1 had Gresley's conjugated gear which determines the accentuation of chuffs (Gresley beat).

Timbre of chuffs is largely influenced by the geometry of the smokebox, so the A4 would be a tight fit.

The difference with A4 is not only a larger cylinder volume but interestingly also a smaller exhaust valve size which should make the chuffs deeper and longer.

Saluti

Locoman

Edited February 10, 2022 by Locoman58

[Johan DC]

7 hours ago, Locoman58 said:

According to our research the rebuilt W1 must have had deeper and slightly longer steam chuffs than the A4, and probably a deeper (....)

Within the next two weeks we will also readjust our A4 project on D&H decoders to achieve the W1 rebuilt sound.

Saluti

Locoman

Thanks a lot Locoman, I'll keep an eye out for the D&H.

Will be much easier to smuggle inside than the W1 itself (talking about Hush-Hush! )

 

 

[Dominion]

I have been messing around with the trailing wheels again. I don't have the right tools to remove any metal from the chassis block so I can't try anything complicated. I fitted the Hornby supplied trailing wheels I found they rub on the underside of the chassis adding resistance and lifting the driving wheels occasionally.  The instructions do say they are for static display only.

Instead I tried some finer ones I happened to have (Perhaps Markits ?). These have less deep flanges, slightly under 14mm diameter vs. 14.25 mm for the Hornby ones .  I used the same 20 thou of spacer washers to drop the keeper plate again.

Success, it just makes it around the 30 inch (I WAS WRONG, IT"S 34 INCH THERE) minimum on by MAINLINE (NOT layout minimum).

It is only just as there is one tight spot on the circuit that must be under the planned 30 (WRONG 34) inches there as it binds a little at that point.  The inner wheel also lifts a little sometimes but it does not derail. 

It is more comfortable on the 32 (WRONG IT IS 36 THERE) inch minimum loop.

I think it helps significantly that these wheels have no boss on the back, allowing more lateral movement. 

Edited February 14, 2022 by Dominion
Correcting misremembered radius

[MikeParkin65]

On 06/02/2022 at 19:40, paftrain said:

At last I have now had the opportunity to run my ‘hush hush’ loco. Not so much a hush though, more of a growl! It makes a horrendous noise going forward and cuts out frequently  and shorts out on my controller. In reverse, however, it runs smoothly and silently.

I was wondering if anyone else has had this problem before it take it apart and/or complain to Hornby. Very disappointing although I was expecting something would be wrong after all the faults I’ve read on here.

Any help will be gratefully received as I’d rather fix it than send it back.

Havent got one but I would check if the motor mount and/or gear train cover are loose?

[kingmender]

6 hours ago, Dominion said:

I have been messing around with the trailing wheels again. I don't have the right tools to remove any metal from the chassis block so I can't try anything complicated. I fitted the Hornby supplied trailing wheels I found they rub on the underside of the chassis adding resistance and lifting the driving wheels occasionally.  The instructions do say they are for static display only.

Instead I tried some finer ones I happened to have (Perhaps Markits ?). These have less deep flanges, slightly under 14mm diameter vs. 14.25 mm for the Hornby ones .  I used the same 20 thou of spacer washers to drop the keeper plate again.

Success, it just makes it around the 30 inch minimum on by layout.

It is only just as there is one tight spot on the circuit that must be under the planned 30 inches there as it binds a little at that point.  The inner wheel also lifts a little sometimes but it does not derail. 

It is more comfortable on the 32 inch minimum loop.

I think it helps significantly that these wheels have no boss on the back, allowing more lateral movement. 

I've only tried the flanged wheelset in the front pair of the trailing wheels. Runs ok on my circa 30" radius curves (I think the inner track on my helix may be a tad under 30"), but causes shorts (running DCC) as the flanges are fouling the botton of the chassis. I'll take my dremmel to it soon to resolve. 

I'm also planning on using a Comet etch to build a swinging rear wheelset, just a soon as Auspost deliver it. So a little more butchery will be required. I'll have to do the same to my A4 too as it doesn't like the inner track on the helix when running with flanged wheels.

Edited February 14, 2022 by kingmender
typo

[kingmender]

Comet delivery arrived at lunchtime. The world must be returning to normal as I ordered on 1st Feb and deliveries in 2019 were about 10 days extending out to over 4 weeks in the last 2 years.

[paftrain]

16 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Havent got one but I would check if the motor mount and/or gear train cover are loose?

Hi Mike,

I have now had the body off and confirm there are no loose mountings. I also took the opportunity to oil the bearings and gears, but it hasn’t made any difference. I have recently purchased two versions of the rebuilt W1s and they run quietly. I have therefore written to Hornby asking for a replacement chassis offering to return the chassis only as I don’t want to chance the body getting damaged in the post.

 

[Dominion]

On 06/02/2022 at 14:40, paftrain said:

At last I have now had the opportunity to run my ‘hush hush’ loco. Not so much a hush though, more of a growl! It makes a horrendous noise going forward and cuts out frequently  and shorts out on my controller. In reverse, however, it runs smoothly and silently.

I was wondering if anyone else has had this problem before it take it apart and/or complain to Hornby. Very disappointing although I was expecting something would be wrong after all the faults I’ve read on here.

Any help will be gratefully received as I’d rather fix it than send it back.

 

Hi Paftrain, I have had an issue that sounds just like that on 2 different Hornby locos, though not a W1.

With the body off I could see that the worm gear was lifting and skipping teeth on the top drive gear gear in one direction only. With one I put a sliver of plasticard under the rear of the motor to tilt it more forwards slightly. On the other there was a clip fit cage over the worm that hadn't engaged properly on one side which I clicked back in. In both cases the issue disappeared and has not reoccurred. Good luck. Tom

[Dominion]

I am most dreadfully sorry. I made a mistake when I posted yesterday. The radius that the W1 was working OK on with the finer flanged wheels was 34 inches radius, not 30 inches as I said yesterday. I hope that hasn't lead to any frustration for anyone that tried it in between.

I misremembered the minimum radius in the main line. 30 is the minimum elsewhere.

[Dominion]

On Paftran’s running issue, you may want to check the cover over the worm gear is clicked down properly on both sides. It makes a definite click on each side. That cover is what holds the worm bearings down and if either end lifts it can disengage from the top gear. It can be deceiving as it seems secure with only one side clicked. This is the W1 set up.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Dominion
Typo

[paftrain]

6 hours ago, Dominion said:

On Paftran’s running issue, you may want to check the cover over the worm gear is clicked down properly on both sides. It makes a definite click on each side. That cover is what’s holds the worm bearings down and if either end lifts it can disengage from the top gear. It can be deceiving as it seems secure with only one side clicked. This is the W1 set up.

Hi Tom,

thanks for the tips. I have checked all the points you have raised as I had exactly the same problem with another Hornby model, an original Merchant Navy, and also cured it with a sliver of plastic under the clip, but this doesn’t appear to be the same issue here.  
I just hope Hornby will replace the chassis for me. If not, then it’s no more Hornby products for me, there have been just too many Quality problems.

[Eddie the dog]

On the subject of the fixed trailing wheels, and I don’t consider myself to be an expert here.

Initially I was reluctant to buy this model for this very reason but now have two of the rebuilt ones !

Can’t understand why they were not designed to be mounted individually  ?

A compromise yes, but better than the floating wheel scenario.

What do you think are the chances of Hornby or third party coming up with a solution to this ?

[Michael Hodgson]

38 minutes ago, Eddie the dog said:

What do you think are the chances of Hornby or third party coming up with a solution to this ?

Remote, in Hornby's case.

I'm afraid I think they're unlikely to address the issue unless they choose to run another batch in a year or two, and not necessairly even then.  Their current sales have no doubt made whatever profit they expected, so job done.  Another batch would only be justified if they thought there was sufficient demand, and that they thought the cost of the change would be fully recovered

 

Perhaps a market opportunity for some small business to produce a 3D printed replacement arrangement?

[micklner]

The chassis is a one piece Mazak casting.

Due to the rear Truck wheel holders being part of that casting it is virtually impossible to remove the wheel holders and then make the casting floor level. You would need access to a Mill to achieve the removal. You then would have to drill and tap a thread into Mazak, not a easy task as Mazak is a horrible metal to do anything too. Even then a very restricted space to achieve any bogie swing.

Hornby are'nt stupid, that is why they have made the same design on all their recent  A1 A3 and A4's. Bachmann have also given up trying to squeeze the moving wheels in  and done the same on the new V2.

 

Not viable. IMHO.

[No Decorum]

1 hour ago, Eddie the dog said:

On the subject of the fixed trailing wheels, and I don’t consider myself to be an expert here.

Initially I was reluctant to buy this model for this very reason but now have two of the rebuilt ones !

Can’t understand why they were not designed to be mounted individually  ?

A compromise yes, but better than the floating wheel scenario.

What do you think are the chances of Hornby or third party coming up with a solution to this ?

I don’t think Hornby will do anything about their existing toolings. However, the whole arrangement could be done a very great deal better, at least by shaping wheel arches in the chassis to accommodate flanged wheels. There are other things which could be done fairly easily at design stage to create a better compromise than we have at the moment but Hornby shows no sign of doing so.

[melmerby]

15 hours ago, Dominion said:

On Paftran’s running issue, you may want to check the cover over the worm gear is clicked down properly on both sides. It makes a definite click on each side. That cover is what holds the worm bearings down and if either end lifts it can disengage from the top gear. It can be deceiving as it seems secure with only one side clicked. This is the W1 set up.

 

On my first one there was a spare UJ drive shaft (the little plastic thing) floating arond inside the body. If that gets in the wrong place it could affect the drive.

[kingmender]

I've modified the rear end to use flanged wheels on both axles. Minimum radius on my layout is 30" and I don't think it would be suitable for radii much less than this. 

Using a Comet models LS3 pony truck etch, I shortened it to 18mm between the pivot and wheel centres and removed the guard irons. This is the distance between the keep plate mounting screw at the front of the cab and the rear wheelset.

Using a "dentist's" burr in my Dremmel I ground away the rear wheelset mounting flush to the underside  of the cab floor. Then ground out a channel each side of the front mounting and where the rear truck would swing to give clearance for the flanges. A little too hasty with the Dremmel saw a little damage to the underside edge of the cartazzi truck frame. A dab of paint should fix. Test paint dabs on the underside are railmatch GWR freight grey, bottom and Humbrol dark grey (32?) top.

I then cut the keep plate down and filed off the screw recess boss to give a flat underside. The modified pony truck fits between the mounting and keep plate using a longer 2mm shouldered screw. 

Test running revealed some shorting to the chassis, so a little more ginding on the underside was required. Having added a small piece of lead to the trailing truck, it now runs perfectly with all trailing wheels in contact with the track. Hauling a dynamometer car and 8 Gresly teaks the 1:60, 30" radius helix between each level of my layout was barely noticeable. 

A little painting should finish it

 

 

 

Edited May 20, 2022 by kingmender
replacing pictures

[cctransuk]

34 minutes ago, kingmender said:

I've modified the rear end to use flanged wheels on both axles. Minimum radius on my layout is 30" and I don't think it would be suitable for radii much less than this. 

Using a Comet models LS3 pony truck etch, I shortened it to 18mm between the pivot and wheel centres and removed the guard irons. This is the distance between the keep plate mounting screw at the front of the cab and the rear wheelset.

Using a "dentist's" burr in my Dremmel I ground away the rear wheelset mounting flush to the underside  of the cab floor. Then ground out a channel each side of the front mounting and where the rear truck would swing to give clearance for the flanges. A little too hasty with the Dremmel saw a little damage to the underside edge of the cartazzi truck frame. A dab of paint should fix. Test paint dabs on the underside are railmatch GWR freight grey, bottom and Humbrol dark grey (32?) top.

I then cut the keep plate down and filed off the screw recess boss to give a flat underside. The modified pony truck fits between the mounting and keep plate using a longer 2mm shouldered screw. 

Test running revealed some shorting to the chassis, so a little more ginding on the underside was required. Having added a small piece of lead to the trailing truck, it now runs perfectly with all trailing wheels in contact with the track. Hauling a dynamometer car and 8 Gresly teaks the 1:60, 30" radius helix between each level of my layout was barely noticeable. 

A little painting to do and it should be finished.

 

So, if you can do it, why can't Hornby?!?

 

I know, set-track radii - so fit the flangeless wheels and lock the rear truck with another screw.

 

As I know from personal experience how easy it is to back-engineer Hornby's Pacifics to working trailing trucks, I can only conclude that Hornby get a kick out of p*ssing-off serious modellers with this 'design-clever' (stupid) anachronism!

 

CJI.

[kingmender]

Path of least resistance for Hornby and all other manufacturers, then don't add cost by making it more complex. How many of us will a) run it, b) have curves more generous than 4th radius >24"? Rails of Sheffield got a far amount of stick on here over 18000 and third radius curves (to be fair I didn't see or register that this was the case, perhaps because such tight radii are not of concern to me?), so backwards compatibility will remain an overriding factor. "You can't please all the people all the time" could be an apt phrase.

Despite compromises like this, I'm still amazed that we've seen this model at all. I'd never consider myself a serious modeller, but I'm happy to improve things to my satisfaction. It all started with a Hornby 9f and Crownline Crosti bolier conversion kit nearly 40 years ago. My late Grandfather marvelled at some oddities: Crosti 9f, LNER P2 (he bought me a Kay's kit which I heve the sad remenants of my unskilled attempt), W1, Fury, Turbomotive, Leader and others. Nearly all of these have become available as RTR offerings, just 20 years too late for him. Can skilled serious modellers do better with kits and scratchbuilding? - probably. But for the rest of us, I for one am really grateful for what we now have.

Rodger

[Edna Clouds]

Hey-ho, just sent back my third R3840 with the same fault ... the driver's side smoke deflector with the top broken off.

[zr2498]

21 hours ago, Edna Clouds said:

Hey-ho, just sent back my third R3840 with the same fault ... the driver's side smoke deflector with the top broken off.

Was that back to Hornby. Can't believe they would still be sending them out broken or without better packaging

[Edna Clouds]

On 01/03/2022 at 10:50, zr2498 said:

Was that back to Hornby. Can't believe they would still be sending them out broken or without better packaging

It was from Leigh Collett and it's not to do with him, his packing was exemplary - it's the clamshell that pushes the smoke deflector inwards with nothing behind it. Perhaps my bucket list should include acquiring one in one piece!