Panic buying

[rockershovel]

I've just sent off for a selection of floats and gaskets for the Harleys. E10 is liquid death to Cork or nylon floats, and the rubber tips on some needle valves. 

[Ron Ron Ron]

11 hours ago, Gibbo675 said:

 

....Here Is Alexander Mercouris explaining it all to much greater detail than I am able to:

 

 

Alexander Mercouris operates as part of Sputnik's corrosive disinformation programme.

A lot of truths and factual analysis, used to back up an agenda of disinformation, with particular aims in mind.

 

 

.

 

[alastairq]

12 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

For one thing, as E10 is less efficient than E5, motorists are having to top up more often.

 Less than 3% more fuel consumption? Well, maybe topping up one time more every few months might be deemed 'more often' in the strictest sense?

 

 

https://www.fbhvc.co.uk/fuels

[TheQ]

Not sure where you get 3% more fuel consumption. it says 2.6 % fuel leaning leading to power loss and drivability problems..  Nothing about how much more fuel used.

 

I know from recent trials with my car which is approved for  E10 use , I'm getting around 25% more fuel consumption or putting it the other way round 25% less MPG... The car really doesn't like E10.. I've switched to premium E5..

[MarkC]

My wife's car is a 2005 Saab 93, 2 litre turbo convertible. An absolute joy to drive, and remarkably economical when motorway cruising. (Not so good round town, but that's not unexpected). Having thought about this, I'll be going for the premium unleaded for it when I get home; I'm convinced that it will actually pay to do so. (Not having to add Redex regularly when bunkering supermarket fuel, which doesn't have the additives that the oil majors put in, will help too, of course).

[alastairq]

10 hours ago, monkeysarefun said:

Im not talking about tearing off at warp speed  when the lights go green, its just everyday motoring incidents that highlight the difference -  safe overtaking becomes a bit more hairy, pulling into traffic and accelerating to  traffic speed becomes a bit more hairy.....   

Good grief! 

If the effect of ''E10'' is that bad, then my cars must be entirely upside down!

I've been running E10 now since it came out...[always assuming the fuel actually has 10% ethanol in it? Might well be less, as there's currently a shortage of teh ethanol itself, apparently]

My 2002 Suzuki Grand Vitara, 2 litre petrol, runs exactly the same as it did on E5.  I have zero problems overtaking anything in it, should the need arise.

I will, as a matter of course [I never take any of my cars for granted in any respect....]..I shall inspect the rubber fuel lines, since I don't know if, in its past life, someone has replaced the originals with something cheaper off ebay?

My 1967 Mustang 6 cylinder coupe runs very cleanly on E10, when compared to ordinary E5. I use the cheapest fuel in my oldies anyway. at around 22-24 mpg, paying up to 10 pence a litre more for the pointless supper petrol doesn't make sense. The engines were designed by Ford to run on gnat'spee fuel anyway.

My Dellow, powered by a Ford 100E sidevalve engine, also runs very noticeably more smoothly at sub-3000 revs { most drivers usual traffic engine revs...we rarely drive around at 4000 rpm everywhere]...

 

If an engine had a low enough compression ratio to be happy on 95 octane E5, then it'll be happy on 95 octane E10.

I would imagine an Aston Martin DV8 might blanche at 95 octane fuel, however..but I don't have an Aston [nor do I want one!], so the problem doesn't exist.

 

As for 'cars over 10 years old?'

 

Well, how long is is since France introduced E10 fuel, anybody?

 

Honestly, if the fuel lines on a 10 year old car haven't already been inspected & replaced with new, maybe the brake fluid ought to be looked at as well?

 

Also, ethanol [alcohol, it's like vodka, only more socially acceptable!], is a very good 'cleaner'....so the introduction of a slightly higher ethanol content to one's fuel is bound to have a cleaning effect of all the crud and muck that an owner has totally ignored in their fuel tank and system. This will now descend towards the engine, which will in itself create issues.

The only car on my fleet that thus far hasn't seen E10 is my '94 Daihatsu Fourtrak!

 

It has, in the past, seen half a tank of E5 [by mistake, I was distracted by another customer going off on one!]...., mixed with a gallon or two of the diesel already in the tank...and ran just as sweetly as ever....[although I did add a small bottle of Halfrods Lawn mower oil, just to be reet]

That 4trak, too, is excellent at overtaking stuff....when the mood strikes, or when the new cars in front get in my way.

 

E10 is here to stay, It was 'demanded'.....for the same sorts of reasons why we got unleaded petrol.

 

Electric is irrelevant to me,since I will never ever be able to afford, nor desire, to buy a new car in my lifetime!

 

Besides, I'll be likely to forget to unplug the extension lead....

[hayfield]

I also get the feeling that E10 gives less MPG but its very difficult to prove as mostly I dont do many miles just urban driving

 

Just out of interest the two longer distances I drive is either Essex to Milton Keynes and Essex to Staplehurst, both take a similar time if traffic is OK but I use more petrol doing the MK run than Kent, it was only when I looked at the miles, The MK round trip is 40 miles longer, plus my fuel gauge is in bars (8) not a needle so you have no idea of where you are within the bar. Incidently I get a far better fuel consumption when I am in cruise mode for long periods

 

E10 may not be as bad as some fear

[TheQ]

27 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

 

E10 may not be as bad as some fear

I think that very much is car by car, Mine may be safe with E10, but I don't think is set up for it.. Your's may well be..

[alastairq]

Just now, TheQ said:

I think that very much is car by car, Mine may be safe with E10, but I don't think is set up for it.. Your's may well be..

If a car has an engine management system {ECU, sensors, etc] then the ECU will adapt to any fuel/air ratio issues presented by that [up to?] 5% more ethanol in the mix.  Poor old Carburetors will have a harder time of it, and may need some adjustment by owners to obtain optimum fuel/air ratios..which will be harder since one cannot guarantee from one fuelling to the next, what the actual ethanol content will be?

 

If one has unknown [as yet] issues with sensors, etc on a modern than it might take the ECU a bit of time to make its adjustments.

I suppose, like mobile phones, cheaper{?} ECUs might take longer, or not have the same sort of range of internal adjustment to fuel/air ratios that more expensive items?

[I suppose, its like comparing Iphones with Huawei phones, or Peugeot ECUs with BMW ECUs?]

 

Anyway, on the latter I am conjecturing....

 

What does not surprise me is the amount of flapp & panic finding out that petrol has been changed......via media, and the sudden flappic with fuel supplies...that I see amongst petrol buyers ahead of me in the queue at the tills...?

Imagine the panic amongst rail commuters if they found their trains had opening windows, for example?

That could bring down governments!

[raymw]

It's pretty easy to remove the ethanol in relatively small batches, if you're concerned about your garden machinery fuel, for example.

[PhilJ W]

52 minutes ago, TheQ said:

I think that very much is car by car, Mine may be safe with E10, but I don't think is set up for it.. Your's may well be..

I think it depends on the vehicle. Mine is OK with E10 according to the manufacturer but the drop off in performance/increased consumption is palpable. Quite by accident I hit on the ideal ratio of premium unleaded/E10, one third premium unleaded to two thirds E10. In fact the car runs better than it did on pre E10 petrol and even better than the time I filled up with premium unleaded in error. I usually fill up when it gets down to quarter full and it then usually costs a little under £30 to fill the tank. So in future I will put £20 worth of E10 in the tank and then fill up with premium unleaded. Unfortunately the days are long gone when there were up to four different octanes on the forecourt or even different brands alongside each other. 

[Karhedron]

Here is a depressing read. The current problems may not be so much a temporary glitch as a sign of things to come. 

 

https://eand.co/why-everything-is-suddenly-getting-more-expensive-and-why-it-wont-stop-cbf5a091f403

[woodenhead]

13 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

Here is a depressing read. The current problems may not be so much a temporary glitch as a sign of things to come. 

 

https://eand.co/why-everything-is-suddenly-getting-more-expensive-and-why-it-wont-stop-cbf5a091f403

Not a surprise - at some point we were going to be in for a shock, our resources are not limitless and scarcity will drive prices skywards.

 

Covid also first deflated demand driving cost down in a capitalist marketplace only to then surge upwards when demand grew and production was behind the curve.

 

Chip production was also hit as production steered away from consumer products to medical and computing (all those people WFH needing laptops suddenly), that shock hasn't been fixed yet meaning car production has been hit by a lack of chips and production stoppages as a result of covid.

 

Gas seems to be a political matter but still shows the impact of restricting supply when everybody has scrabbled to gas and away from coal.

 

It's going to be bumpy for a bit.

[Ron Ron Ron]

1 hour ago, Karhedron said:

Here is a depressing read. The current problems may not be so much a temporary glitch as a sign of things to come. 

 

https://eand.co/why-everything-is-suddenly-getting-more-expensive-and-why-it-wont-stop-cbf5a091f403

 

That's from a crank web site.

They have a story on there saying that 20% of people in the UK haven't been able to buy essential food supplies in the last week.

Quote;  ".....and nearly every household in Britain has struggled to find food to buy recently....".

What utter tosh.

Who's feeding them with this nonsense?

 

 

 

.

 

[woodenhead]

1 minute ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

That's from a crank web site.

They have a story on there saying that 20% of people in the UK haven't been able to buy essential food supplies in the last week.

Quote;  ".....and nearly every household in Britain has struggled to find food to buy recently....".

What utter tosh.

Who's feeding them with this nonsense?

 

I didn't read it very far, the main quotes did look like it was bait, but we are in for a rough ride for the next few months I think.

[monkeysarefun]

5 hours ago, alastairq said:

Good grief! 

If the effect of ''E10'' is that bad, then my cars must be entirely upside down!

I've been running E10 now since it came out...[always assuming the fuel actually has 10% ethanol in it?

 

Hey if it works for you thats cool, I'm just sharing my impressions after using it on and off since it was introduced here in  back in 2007,  (2 years before France got it...) . Thats 14 years worth of experience.

 

Here's something to ponder.

 

All service stations must offer E10 here, as part of the government's long running aim to eliminate non ethanol based fuels, so it is readily available everywhere. Looking at the NSW government price watch website, today's cheapest E10 near me is $1.31, which is 71p in your money.

 

At the same servo, our most popular fuel, 95RON is $1.53, or 83p. To put say 50 litres of E10 in would save 6 pounds a tank. You'd think that if E10 was pretty much the same as 95RON performance and/or mileage wise, it would be used happily interchangeably with 95RON, since why would you spend the extra 6 pounds, right? 

 

However usage of  E10 in NSW is  around 25% of fuel sold, and declining. In fact, it hit a peak of around 40% during heavy marketing in 2011-2012  but has been weakening since, and its general trajectory is downwards. 

 

 

If even a 6 pound saving per tank won't make people use it, surely  that shows there must be some issues people have found with it after giving it a chance for 14 years?

 

A couple of points - firstly , no one here bothers to wonder any more  about engine damage caused by E10, that furphy has had 14 years to be disproved, so we won't factor that in.

 

On the other side of the ledger, some makes, particularly German ones stipulate that only 98RON can be used here due to the high sulphur content in the fuels here. However those cars are pretty rare here due to price and the availability of  parts - no one wants to be stuck 1500km  west of the nearest BMW dealer for instance waiting for a new rim or something.

 

Added to the mix is the fact that since 2014 the NSW government has been pushing E10 pretty hard. Putting that all together there is no reason why E10 should not have a much larger market share than it does after 14 years, other than it is not popular.. And what reasons would make it unpopular - its petrol , no one cares what colour it is or what it smells like so its not that - maybe its that it doesnt work as well.

 

We've had 14 years to come to that conclusion.

 

When first mooted, it was intended that non-ethanol fuels would be phased out in 2009. Due to the slow uptake of E10 this was pushed out to 2011, than 2019 and has now been pretty much abandoned due to its lack of friends.

 

Editred because one website I used gave the wrong year it was introduced here...

Edited October 11, 2021 by monkeysarefun

[alastairq]

7 minutes ago, monkeysarefun said:

At the same servo, our most popular fuel, 95RON is $1.53, or 83p. To put say 50 litres of E10 in would save 6 pounds a tank. You'd think that if E10 was pretty much the same as 95RON performance and/or mileage wise, it would be used happily interchangeably with 95RON, since why would you spend the extra 6 pounds, right? 

 

Out of interest, what is the RON [Octane rating] of the stuff sold as E10?

Is what you describe as [the more expensive] 95RON, does that have a lower ethanol content than E10 fuel?

[E10 can be 100 octane, or 80 octane [pool petrol?], or any octane rating the manufacturer intends...]

[woodenhead]

Is it worth spinning the suitability of E10 fuel into it's own thread, it's effectiveness versus other grades of fuel seems a bit off topic.

[monkeysarefun]

4 minutes ago, alastairq said:

Out of interest, what is the RON [Octane rating] of the stuff sold as E10?

Is what you describe as [the more expensive] 95RON, does that have a lower ethanol content than E10 fuel?

[E10 can be 100 octane, or 80 octane [pool petrol?], or any octane rating the manufacturer intends...]

 

Mate its 94RON.

 

We also have a 91RON fuel thats meant to be a replacement for  the old "standard" fuel from  back when petrol came in "standard" or  "Super" if you drove a posh car - things were so much easier back then!

Edited October 11, 2021 by monkeysarefun

[alastairq]

3 hours ago, raymw said:

It's pretty easy to remove the ethanol in relatively small batches, if you're concerned about your garden machinery fuel, for example.

 However, it's worth being aware that, by removing the ethanol in this way, one is  also reducing the octane rating of the fuel, which in itself can lead to engine damage. [Ethanol is also used  as an anti-knock agent, it seems]

 

For garden machinery which may stand idle for much of the time, it is probably best to obtain a specialist fuel for the purpose. Ths fuel doesn't have the same head end components as pump fuel, probably doesn't have any alcohol in it, so 'keeps' better in storage..but costs a lot more per litre....However, for a lawn mower, how much fel is it going to use?

Personally I'd drain whatever fuel is left in a lawn mower tank once use has ceased.....[I'd stick the left overs in my Daihatsu 4trak..it'll run on anything.]

 

 

[monkeysarefun]

1 minute ago, woodenhead said:

Is it worth spinning the suitability of E10 fuel into it's own thread, it's effectiveness versus other grades of fuel seems a bit off topic.

 

 Oops, sorry, its just that until the panic buying starts down here again I've got nothing else to talk about.. (we started it all with the toilet rolls, remember!) 

[57xx]

Can we stick to the topic, Panic buying please. There is a separate thread for old wives tales about E10. Thank you.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Right then.

It's nearly 5:30 and I fancy panic buying a take-away curry tonight.

Mrs Ron is on-board with this plan.

 

I hope that doesn't start a mad, mass dash to the Tandoori.

Don't all rush at once.

 

 

.

[Reorte]

1 hour ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

That's from a crank web site.

They have a story on there saying that 20% of people in the UK haven't been able to buy essential food supplies in the last week.

Quote;  ".....and nearly every household in Britain has struggled to find food to buy recently....".

What utter tosh.

Who's feeding them with this nonsense?

 

Sounds like trying to twist the fact that there have been intermittent shortages of some items (e.g. a couple of weeks ago I went in to Tesco and there was only chicken in the meat section) in to sounding a lot more alarming than it really is.

 

Although I like the irony in being fed a shortage of food story

[Michael Hodgson]

26 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Right then.

It's nearly 5:30 and I fancy panic buying a take-away curry tonight.

Mrs Ron is on-board with this plan.

 

I hope that doesn't start a mad, mass dash to the Tandoori.

Don't all rush at once.

.

Don't forget to panic buy your toilet rolls if you're going for the vindaloo!