More model ideas

[Wickham Green too]

2 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:

You miss: a high-end detailed model of the actual locos on which The Rev W Awdry based his creations on. 

Yes, a high-end detailed model of the Brighton E2 is long overdue ....... though whether that's what the Rev.Awdry actually had in mind, we'll probably never know - it may well have been chosen by illustrators William Middleton or Reginald Payne long after the first stories were written.

[Roy Langridge]

1 minute ago, Wickham Green too said:

Yes, a high-end detailed model of the Brighton E2 is long overdue ....... though whether that's what the Rev.Awdry actually had in mind, we'll probably never know - it may well have been chosen by illustrators William Middleton or Reginald Payne long after the first stories were written.

I had the pleasure of meeting the man himself many years ago. He talked passionately about how he used real locos as his inspiration. From that discussion I would say that the early illustrations were probably heavily influenced by the Reverend. 
 

Which TTTE locos were created by him and which by those who later gained the rights, and when that change-over occurred, I don’t know. 
 

Roy

[Wickham Green too]

All very complicated according to Wackypedia ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Railway_Series ) ........ sounds like Middleton was out of the way by the time Thomas appeared - but there was a 'Thomas' model by the man himself and later "C. Reginald Dalby, perhaps the most famous of the Railway Series artists" may have influenced the design .............. anyway, it's all very hypothetical - let's just have a decent E2 ( from someone ).

[No Decorum]

Yes, a nice E2 tooled to cover the tank variation.

[Delta_Who]

On 13/05/2022 at 16:50, mdvle said:

Never get the licensing because a) the license holder won't see any need for 2 competing products and b) the idea of a high end detailed model which is inherently kid unsafe won't work for a product primarily aimed at kids.

 

Except both have been done already. Hornby, Bachmann and Coolprop, and the latter proved that there is a desire for superdetailed Thomas fans.

I personally think that a Accurascale model run based on Series 1 models would sell like hot cakes

[Dunsignalling]

1 minute ago, Delta_Who said:

 

Except both have been done already. Hornby, Bachmann and Coolprop, and the latter proved that there is a desire for superdetailed Thomas fans.

I personally think that a Accurascale model run based on Series 1 models would sell like hot cakes

Possibly, but I can't see the copyright holders granting more than one licence even if their arrangement with Bachmann isn't exclusive. 

[mdvle]

1 hour ago, Delta_Who said:

Except both have been done already. Hornby, Bachmann and Coolprop, and the latter proved that there is a desire for superdetailed Thomas fans.

 

No duplication.  Hornby had UK rights, Bachmann rest of world rights until Hornby exited Thomas at which point Bachmann took world rights.

 

Coolprop aren't in the same market - they are Gauge 1, collectable, and priced accordingly.  Their size and price mean that they are unlikely to be a kids toy, and even if they are used by a kid their size reduces the risk of small parts - but really they are clearly collectables designed to be displayed (hence no motor).

 

An Accurascale model in OO sold by retailers means the risk of young kids getting access to it - at which point the small parts become a problem.  So no license - the rights holders won't risk damaging their brand, and Bachmann very likely has an exclusive for OO/HO anyway (as well as N and G).

[Delta_Who]

35 minutes ago, mdvle said:

 

No duplication.  Hornby had UK rights, Bachmann rest of world rights until Hornby exited Thomas at which point Bachmann took world rights.

 

Coolprop aren't in the same market - they are Gauge 1, collectable, and priced accordingly.  Their size and price mean that they are unlikely to be a kids toy, and even if they are used by a kid their size reduces the risk of small parts - but really they are clearly collectables designed to be displayed (hence no motor).

 

An Accurascale model in OO sold by retailers means the risk of young kids getting access to it - at which point the small parts become a problem.  So no license - the rights holders won't risk damaging their brand, and Bachmann very likely has an exclusive for OO/HO anyway (as well as N and G).

 

Huge doubt on both. 00 gauge pricing (particuarly if we're playing devils advocate and imagined Accurascale went ahead of this), the pricing would likely be in the £100+ range, which would put it in a similar argument as coolprops (even at a large price disparity, £150/£200 on a single Thomas model is a hard justification for any parent). Then there is the retail nature of Accurascale, which is not making any active effort to market/comply to young children (you could argue that parts of our hobby are catered and actively used by younger children, which comes with its own arguments on the level of trust and safety.)

As for exclusivity, again I have huge doubts. Heck there were even other manufacturers making N-scale Thomas models (Tomix I believe). Given how expensive exclusivity deals are, I doubt Bachmann would actively pursue one where there is hardly any RTR competition anyway. I would be hard-pressed to find evidence that Mattel even understand model-railway scales in the first place.

With that said, I do see your points though. There are technical hurdles to overcome including viability and potentially safety.

[Phil Parker]

14 minutes ago, Delta_Who said:

Given how expensive exclusivity deals are, I doubt Bachmann would actively pursue one where there is hardly any RTR competition anyway. I would be hard-pressed to find evidence that Mattel even understand model-railway scales in the first place.

 

I bet that Mattel's lawyers would learn the difference pretty quickly, and very expensivly for anyone who decided to chance their arm againast that agreement.

[Delta_Who]

Just now, Phil Parker said:

 

I bet that Mattel's lawyers would learn the difference pretty quickly, and very expensivly for anyone who decided to chance their arm againast that agreement.

*shudders*

[Dunsignalling]

18 minutes ago, Delta_Who said:

 

Huge doubt on both. 00 gauge pricing (particuarly if we're playing devils advocate and imagined Accurascale went ahead of this), the pricing would likely be in the £100+ range, which would put it in a similar argument as coolprops (even at a large price disparity, £150/£200 on a single Thomas model is a hard justification for any parent). Then there is the retail nature of Accurascale, which is not making any active effort to market/comply to young children (you could argue that parts of our hobby are catered and actively used by younger children, which comes with its own arguments on the level of trust and safety.)

As for exclusivity, again I have huge doubts. Heck there were even other manufacturers making N-scale Thomas models (Tomix I believe). Given how expensive exclusivity deals are, I doubt Bachmann would actively pursue one where there is hardly any RTR competition anyway. I would be hard-pressed to find evidence that Mattel even understand model-railway scales in the first place.

With that said, I do see your points though. There are technical hurdles to overcome including viability and potentially safety.

There are serious implications in announcing, let alone trying to sell, unlicensed models based on copyrighted subjects for which a licence has been sold to another party.

 

I suggest you check out the thread(s) on here relating to the (licensed) models of The Titfield Thunderbolt that will be coming from Rapido Trains and the (unlicensed) ones that won't be coming from Hornby.

 

Then multiply the possible consequences several times over to reflect the higher profile/value of TTTE.

 

The rights owners in both cases are sufficiently well-resourced to see off any model railway manufacturer with the temerity to take them on, out of Petty Cash. 

 

John  

[mdvle]

18 minutes ago, Delta_Who said:

Huge doubt on both. 00 gauge pricing (particuarly if we're playing devils advocate and imagined Accurascale went ahead of this), the pricing would likely be in the £100+ range, which would put it in a similar argument as coolprops (even at a large price disparity, £150/£200 on a single Thomas model is a hard justification for any parent).

 

Thomas with Annie & Clarabel train set from Bachmann - £140

 

Thomas with Annie & Clarabel from Coolprops - $1,600 + $140 shipping to UK

https://coolprops.com/english/cpv-01-0001/

 

I don't think anyone will confuse those 2 offerings.

 

On the other hand an OO Accurascale Thomas for sale at a model train retailer could be confused, particularly if a last minute gift that had to be Thomas and the Bachmann was out of stock at the retailer (or they don't carry Bachmann).

 

Or if visiting someone else's house where the child and/or some of the parents on hand might not realize the difference.

 

18 minutes ago, Delta_Who said:

As for exclusivity, again I have huge doubts. Heck there were even other manufacturers making N-scale Thomas models (Tomix I believe). Given how expensive exclusivity deals are, I doubt Bachmann would actively pursue one where there is hardly any RTR competition anyway.

 

Bachmann UK have an exclusive deal to make the Class 69 in OO and N

 

Rapido have an exclusive deal to make the Titfield Thunderbolt, as Hornby learned the hard way

 

Revolution have an exclusive to do the Class 93

 

Dapol have/had an exclusive on the Class 68

 

That would seem to indicate they aren't as expensive as you indicate.

 

18 minutes ago, Delta_Who said:

I would be hard-pressed to find evidence that Mattel even understand model-railway scales in the first place.

 

Mattel markets in the US toy cars (Hot Wheels brand) that use 1/87 aka HO scale.  1/87 is strange enough that they obviously chose it to match model trains.  Thus they understand model train scales.

 

[Delta_Who]

10 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

There are serious implications in announcing, let alone trying to sell, unlicensed models based on copyrighted subjects for which a licence has been sold to another party.

 

I suggest you check out the thread(s) on here relating to the (licensed) models of The Titfield Thunderbolt that will be coming from Rapido Trains and the (unlicensed) ones that won't be coming from Hornby.

 

Then multiply the possible consequences several times over to reflect the higher profile/value of TTTE.

 

The rights owners in both cases are sufficiently well-resourced to see off any model railway manufacturer with the temerity to take them on, out of Petty Cash. 

 

John  

Ummm, we're not debating about unlicensed products? (Maybe I misunderstood your post).
 

 

6 minutes ago, mdvle said:

I don't think anyone will confuse those 2 offerings.

 

On the other hand an OO Accurascale Thomas for sale at a model train retailer could be confused, particularly if a last minute gift that had to be Thomas and the Bachmann was out of stock at the retailer (or they don't carry Bachmann)

 

 Partially, my argument here is that even the lower-end pricepoint for our hobby... is still pretty high for a youngsters toy. £20 Brio train vs £140 Bachmann Set (We're Brits here right? :P)

 

10 minutes ago, mdvle said:

That would seem to indicate they aren't as expensive as you indicate.

Lets be real, none of those touch the market value of Thomas. With the exception of Titfield Thunderbolt, none of the locomotive manufacturers are actively pursuing commercial retail. (Offtopic but I've worked in flight simulation, and you can pretty much get a Boeing/Airbus license for your product for around 20-30% of your retail price. Beyond that, ensuring good PR and you're not licensed for professional use, they don't care.)

 

16 minutes ago, mdvle said:

Mattel markets in the US toy cars (Hot Wheels brand) that use 1/87 aka HO scale.

 

Yes but their designs are hollistic to the Hotwheels brand only. Thomas was a fairly recent acquisition  for Mattel, so we don't really know how much of a grasp the higher-ups have on their own brand. Nor do we truely know how much they pay attention to the model-railway market. A bit of reading up suggests that there was always some sort of relationship between the Kader group (Bachmann's parent company) and the Thomas franchise... and that's not just including model trains. 

If Bachmann did have exclusivity on different scales, good for them. But then that begs the question
a) Why not market that into your products?
b) Why would someone like Tomix be manufacturing TTTE goods?
c) Would that be a reason Hornby pulled out... or was it another reason? (Rising manufacturing? Expense of the license after Mattel acquisition? Poor company finances?)
d) Why would Bachmann seek a scale-exclusive license in the first place, if it would likely be more expensive than if they upheld the status-quo?


Anyway, can we talk about something else? Fran is probably looking at this in bewilderment, and I don't want to distract from the fact that I want an Accurascale HST :D 

[Islesy]

Put simply, TTTE is a poison chalice, and I can reassure you that Mattel know the value of all their brands.

You’d be surprised just how hard it is to sell TTTE products, they’re not the golden eggs that many think they are…

[Dunsignalling]

38 minutes ago, Delta_Who said:

Ummm, we're not debating about unlicensed products? (Maybe I misunderstood your post).
 

 

 

 Partially, my argument here is that even the lower-end pricepoint for our hobby... is still pretty high for a youngsters toy. £20 Brio train vs £140 Bachmann Set (We're Brits here right? :P)

 

 

 

 

 

Given that this thread is about potential new products from Accurascale, and Bachmann holds the sole licence for OO models based on TTTE characters, any such products from Accurascale would, by definition, be unlicensed. I somehow suspect that such things wouldn't figure in the first twenty pages of any list of their ambitions, anyway. 

 

Tomix only do N gauge, so it's a different licence, one that Bachmann don't seem interested in exploiting themselves, despite having a presence in N gauge.

 

In truth, kids only form a very limited part of the model railway market these days, trains just aren't cool any more, and relatively few nowadays take an interest.

 

John

Edited May 17, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Flying Pig]

6 minutes ago, Islesy said:

Put simply, TTTE is a poison chalice, and I can reassure you that Mattel know the value of all their brands.

You’d be surprised just how hard it is to sell TTTE products, they’re not the golden eggs that many think they are…

 

So I guess a finescale My Little Pony with drop-in P4 wheelsets is right out, then?

 

(I hope to God it is.)

[Delta_Who]

6 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Given that this thread is about potential new products from Accurascale, and Bachmann holds the sole licence for OO models based on TTTE characters.

 

Still not seen proof of a scale-specific license. I will say though that an article I've just found suggests regionality exclusivity. Regardless, it doesn't matter since we've now had someone from Accurascale confirm is unviable/exceedingly difficult.

[Delta_Who]

4 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

So I guess a finescale My Little Pony with drop-in P4 wheelsets is right out, then?

 

Now we're talkin...

[frobisher]

1 hour ago, Delta_Who said:

As for exclusivity, again I have huge doubts. Heck there were even other manufacturers making N-scale Thomas models (Tomix I believe). Given how expensive exclusivity deals are, I doubt Bachmann would actively pursue one where there is hardly any RTR competition anyway. I would be hard-pressed to find evidence that Mattel even understand model-railway scales in the first place.

 

If you know any of the history between Bachmann and Hornby on the Thomas licence issues you'd know the licensor knows damn fine how to slice up exclusivity by gauge and enforce it.

 

But I suspect this is so very far into the territory of "I wouldn't touch it with yours mate" for AS...

[Islesy]

13 minutes ago, Delta_Who said:

Still not seen proof of a scale-specific license.

It is. Then there are sub-licences for electric drive, clockwork, battery etc etc.

For example, Hornby held the 00 and N gauge licences for the Hitachi 80xxxx, then Kato approached Hitachi for the N Gauge model, and Hornby released that licence, in exchange for another scale.

Edited May 17, 2022 by Islesy

[frobisher]

55 minutes ago, Delta_Who said:

If Bachmann did have exclusivity on different scales, good for them. But then that begs the question
a) Why not market that into your products?
b) Why would someone like Tomix be manufacturing TTTE goods?
c) Would that be a reason Hornby pulled out... or was it another reason? (Rising manufacturing? Expense of the license after Mattel acquisition? Poor company finances?)
d) Why would Bachmann seek a scale-exclusive license in the first place, if it would likely be more expensive than if they upheld the status-quo?

 

a) Because your market doesn't care, it wants Thomas...

b) Because they they have a different set of exclusive licences...

c) It's almost irrelevant.  Hornby's license obviously no longer worked for them any more, so they didn't renew it OR they were outbid OR they were dropped.  The outcome is the same.

d) Hornby's license was scale and region exclusive and was pretty much the first.  That set the precedent for how the licenses were granted.

[Delta_Who]

1 minute ago, Islesy said:

It is. Then there are sub-licences for electric drive, clockwork, battery etc etc.

For example, Hornby held the 00 and N gauge licences for the Hitachi 80xxxx, then Kato approached Hitachi for the N Gauge model, and Hornby released that licence, in exchange for another scale.

 

Excellent (Well not excellent in the grand scheme of things). Thanks for the clear-up!

[Delta_Who]

13 minutes ago, frobisher said:

 

If you know any of the history between Bachmann and Hornby on the Thomas licence issues you'd know the licensor knows damn fine how to slice up exclusivity by gauge and enforce it.

 

But I suspect this is so very far into the territory of "I wouldn't touch it with yours mate" for AS...

 

Yh most likely. Even for something as unique as TTTE, still an interesting discussion on what Model Manufacturers have to go through and decisions made.

[Wickham Green too]

Of course if a certain manufacturer produced a model 'inspired by' Thomas they could include whatever level of detailing they chose ! ....... and nobody could say it was wrong.

[Dunsignalling]

41 minutes ago, Delta_Who said:

 

Still not seen proof of a scale-specific license. I will say though that an article I've just found suggests regionality exclusivity. Regardless, it doesn't matter since we've now had someone from Accurascale confirm is unviable/exceedingly difficult.

And who previously worked for Hornby, so presumably saw at first hand what led to them deciding to get the heck out of TTTE (though I imagine that is encompassed by professional confidentiality).

 

Scale specific licensing is an industry norm, simply because few (if any) players produce in all the sizes and a blanket licence to (for example) Hornby, would mean that models in O or N would never see the light of day. 

Edited May 17, 2022 by Dunsignalling