Hornby 2021 - Ruston & Hornsby 88DS

[Wagonmaster]

I am interested in the NE Region departmental No.84. However, I notice in my books a reference to another 88DS. This one being No.52 and was at Hull for a while. Does anyone know anymore details of this Ruston? I've not yet come across a photograph of it. Was it similar to Nos.84 etc?

[Ruston]

On 11/07/2023 at 00:06, Ighten said:

Now pushed to autumn..

Which autumn though ? Any year this century?

 

Why does no one from Hornby ever come on this forum to keep us informed? They need to take a leaf out of the books of newer companies, who know how to engage with their customers.

[Fireline]

12 hours ago, Ruston said:

Which autumn though ? Any year this century?

 

Why does no one from Hornby ever come on this forum to keep us informed? They need to take a leaf out of the books of newer companies, who know how to engage with their customers.

The way that some members of this forum continually lambast Hornby, would you want to be the one taking that abuse on the chin? I doubt that somehow.

[PhilJ W]

2 hours ago, Fireline said:

The way that some members of this forum continually lambast Hornby, would you want to be the one taking that abuse on the chin? I doubt that somehow.

Other manufacturers have similar delay problems but they are not criticised.

[MikeParkin65]

25 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

Other manufacturers have similar delay problems but they are not criticised.

Not sure this is true - have a look on the AS thread for multiple examples of people getting their knickers in a twist :)

[Pete the Elaner]

16 hours ago, Ruston said:

Which autumn though ? Any year this century?

 

Why does no one from Hornby ever come on this forum to keep us informed? They need to take a leaf out of the books of newer companies, who know how to engage with their customers.

 

I guess their view is that it would not make a difference. Customers will either want their products or not, regardless of any updates they may provide.

The models will be available when they are ready & making frequent announcements will not change that. Some companies in other industries take the view that getting involved with correspondence delays their service.

[Ruston]

4 hours ago, Fireline said:

The way that some members of this forum continually lambast Hornby, would you want to be the one taking that abuse on the chin? I doubt that somehow.

Why do you doubt that I wouldn't want that "abuse"? It would be water off a duck's back to me. Besides, it's not the individual "taking it on the chin", is it? If this person existed, no one would be criticising them personally. They would be doing the job that they're paid to do; representing the company that pays their wages. There are far worse jobs to have I can tell you. 

 

1 hour ago, Pete the Elaner said:

I guess their view is that it would not make a difference. Customers will either want their products or not, regardless of any updates they may provide.

You're probably correct but that don't care attitude doesn't take into account that customers like to know what's happening so they can budget for their models and plan ahead.

 

 

 

[steve1]

It’s the total lack of information that annoys. If there’s a good reason for the delay, why not admit it and apologise?

 

Doesn’t take much.

 

steve

[Covkid]

On 17/10/2023 at 08:03, Ruston said:

Why do you doubt that I wouldn't want that "abuse"? It would be water off a duck's back to me. Besides, it's not the individual "taking it on the chin", is it? If this person existed, no one would be criticising them personally. They would be doing the job that they're paid to do; representing the company that pays their wages. There are far worse jobs to have I can tell you. 

 

You're probably correct but that don't care attitude doesn't take into account that customers like to know what's happening so they can budget for their models and plan ahead.

I agree to a large degree with "Ruston" and feel it is all part of the huge multi faceted monster that is Hornby. I am on hols at the moment and found a couple of old James May 2019 programmes on youtube.  I never really understood the "Terrier thing" at the time but James May laid it all bare.  Lyndon explained that Hornby had lost 30 million pounds that year, Simon Kohler had been brought back and there were clear plans to reverse the deficit. In that show there were unpainted 44DS models on display, but more evident was they turned the new terrier out in eleven months. Proof that a model could be chosen, researched, CAD drawn, tools cut, manufactured, packaged and shipped in less than 12 months. 

 

Need i say more

[meatloaf]

9 minutes ago, Covkid said:

I agree to a large degree with "Ruston" and feel it is all part of the huge multi faceted monster that is Hornby. I am on hols at the moment and found a couple of old James May 2019 programmes on youtube.  I never really understood the "Terrier thing" at the time but James May laid it all bare.  Lyndon explained that Hornby had lost 30 million pounds that year, Simon Kohler had been brought back and there were clear plans to reverse the deficit. In that show there were unpainted 44DS models on display, but more evident was they turned the new terrier out in eleven months. Proof that a model could be chosen, researched, CAD drawn, tools cut, manufactured, packaged and shipped in less than 12 months. 

 

Need i say more

Hadnt Oxford Rail already done the majority of the work tho? As i bilieve it was originally to be in an oxford rail box?

 

[MikeParkin65]

2 minutes ago, meatloaf said:

Hadnt Oxford Rail already done the majority of the work tho? As i bilieve it was originally to be in an oxford rail box?

 

Believe this is true. Rather than a SK ‘ambush’ of the Rails model could it be that LD, having invested heavily in the Terrier felt he had a better chance of getting his investment back via Hornby rather than the less established OR name ?

[Covkid]

10 hours ago, meatloaf said:

Hadnt Oxford Rail already done the majority of the work tho? As i bilieve it was originally to be in an oxford rail box?

 

10 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Believe this is true. Rather than a SK ‘ambush’ of the Rails model could it be that LD, having invested heavily in the Terrier felt he had a better chance of getting his investment back via Hornby rather than the less established OR name ?

 

Yes. Mike. Very plausible indeed

[jjb1970]

I really don't blame Hornby for not participating in forums. I would like to see them engage here, and Paul Isles did it very well but it's probably a thankless task given the various issues faced by the brand. And would it make any difference? People might be well disposed towards certain brands because of their engagement online but I suspect purchasing decisions are driven by prototypes preferences and whether models are well done more than by what people think of individuals. If anything doing it badly presents a greater risk, in my experience keeping quiet is largely just accepted but saying the wrong thing can really rub people the wrong way. I was really turned off DJM long before that train hit the buffers by the proprietors readiness to just blame factories in China and play to some rather unpleasant stereotypes. I suspect KR would have avoided a lot of negativity if their owner had never gotten involved with forums. Sometimes it's easier all around and less hassle to just say nothing. I think Bachmann do it well, they have very good communication with customers when necessary but don't have much of a forum presence. They also learned a lesson and now avoid all the grief over delays by announcing new stuff when it's about to hit the shelf.

[MikeParkin65]

1 hour ago, jjb1970 said:

I really don't blame Hornby for not participating in forums. I would like to see them engage here, and Paul Isles did it very well but it's probably a thankless task given the various issues faced by the brand. And would it make any difference? People might be well disposed towards certain brands because of their engagement online but I suspect purchasing decisions are driven by prototypes preferences and whether models are well done more than by what people think of individuals. If anything doing it badly presents a greater risk, in my experience keeping quiet is largely just accepted but saying the wrong thing can really rub people the wrong way. I was really turned off DJM long before that train hit the buffers by the proprietors readiness to just blame factories in China and play to some rather unpleasant stereotypes. I suspect KR would have avoided a lot of negativity if their owner had never gotten involved with forums. Sometimes it's easier all around and less hassle to just say nothing. I think Bachmann do it well, they have very good communication with customers when necessary but don't have much of a forum presence. They also learned a lesson and now avoid all the grief over delays by announcing new stuff when it's about to hit the shelf.

Agree - if a manufacturer is going to interact it needs a plan and to do it wholeheartedly and well or not at all. That said, done well I think it does generate sales - I have a Manor that really doesnt fit in with my theme at all and am contemplating a J69, a Brush Type 2 and Class 50 all because of how well a company 'engages' . 

[Butler Henderson]

Or simply Hornby and customer service are generally poles apart; any request I  have made to them for a spare part recently gets a response of try Peters Spares. If others can nominally at least make every part available why cannot Hornby.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Butler Henderson

[Black 5 Bear]

1 hour ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Agree - if a manufacturer is going to interact it needs a plan and to do it wholeheartedly and well or not at all. That said, done well I think it does generate sales - I have a Manor that really doesnt fit in with my theme at all and am contemplating a J69, a Brush Type 2 and Class 50 all because of how well a company 'engages' . 

Great minds think alike.

I've ordered all of the above + the VXC Deltic Royal Scots Grey in BR Green.

Enjoy!

Edited October 23, 2023 by Black 5 Bear

[adb968008]

8 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Agree - if a manufacturer is going to interact it needs a plan and to do it wholeheartedly and well or not at all. That said, done well I think it does generate sales - I have a Manor that really doesnt fit in with my theme at all and am contemplating a J69, a Brush Type 2 and Class 50 all because of how well a company 'engages' . 

100% manufacturer engagement drives sales to me anyway.

Feeling of somehow being listened to, or even just being informed is a great feeling and builds confidence and justifies a purchase. It needs to be at a mutual respect level… we may not be model railway designers, but they are not gods and we are not the ignorazzi many of us have professional careers too, often earning way more than they do.

 

Bob Geldof summed it up perfectly at Live Aid, when asked by a Middle Eastern Leader to visit him and talk about Africa… he responded.. “if you want me to listen to your rubbish then you need to show me some money”.

 

Theres one manufacturer on here that is quite caustic at any comment i make on here and it puts me off buying their product, despite me being a supporter of theres, its simply not reciprocated… . I buy less than I would as the enthusiasm is curtailed and doesn't go from hobby to model.. in their case it might be better they just say nothing at all, indeed at shows I’ve avoid their stand… they see less of my money, which is a shame as I think they need more supporters and the product is in general good, but the trust and relationship isnt there… it lacks care, worse still my perception is they are arrogant. They ignore faults, service to me has been poor.

 

But then theres another that could open my wallet for anything they want to sell me, and I often buy way more than I need, getting carried away with the dream. I’m happy to order on a promise as confidence is hugely high, the engagement and enthusiasm is at very high levels. After sales I have not a worry at all.

 

Yes they are businesses, but behind every business is a person. The relationship has to be there, its just as important as why you are buying the model in the first place. Even if your only connecting with and buying from a retailer online..knowing the after sales exists, with a human is important for instance.

 

A long time ago Hornby became just a transaction, to the point I dont care, as its just a machine… even in person at the shows. Simon was the human, we all knew and carried that persona. Where this is now Ive no idea, but another quote comes to mind..

 

Michael O’Leary “The customer is usually wrong”…

 

You learn to know the boundaries (KR for example), whilst I question their accuracy I know I can trust them to deliver and they do the right thing with after sales too, thats grown through experience and seeing at shows they really arent the personas they are often labelled on here, the models arent bad but they could be much better.. However you know the level and you take it or leave it.

To me it is important to engage with your customer, even if its in person at a show rather than on a forum, afterall its not just a model your buying its like every transaction, its a trust to get an even platform between what they are making and your expectation of what your buying… when those two meet any barriers to a sale are removed.

 

Imo the reason model prices are inflating is because of competition… the larger variety of models is being diluted by a fixed sized pot of money. I believe Manufacturers are making less volume and ammortising cost on smaller runs to compensate. In turn buyers are becoming more selective on purchases. In this kind of market relationship is everything.. if you dont talk to your customer then your competitor is… so let them talk rubbish at you all day as long as its your cash register that keeps ringing and its not someone elses window they are shopping in.

 

All the words I highlighted can not be done by a computer, or a business, only by human interaction.

 

apologies for going way off topic, but I’m a person, with passion.

 

Edited October 24, 2023 by adb968008

[NBL]

7 hours ago, adb968008 said:

100% manufacturer engagement drives sales to me anyway.

Feeling of somehow being listened to, or even just being informed is a great feeling and builds confidence and justifies a purchase. It needs to be at a mutual respect level… we may not be model railway designers, but they are not gods and we are not the ignorazzi many of us have professional careers too, often earning way more than they do.

 

Bob Geldof summed it up perfectly at Live Aid, when asked by a Middle Eastern Leader to visit him and talk about Africa… he responded.. “if you want me to listen to your rubbish then you need to show me some money”.

 

Theres one manufacturer on here that is quite caustic at any comment i make on here and it puts me off buying their product, despite me being a supporter of theres, its simply not reciprocated… . I buy less than I would as the enthusiasm is curtailed and doesn't go from hobby to model.. in their case it might be better they just say nothing at all, indeed at shows I’ve avoid their stand… they see less of my money, which is a shame as I think they need more supporters and the product is in general good, but the trust and relationship isnt there… it lacks care, worse still my perception is they are arrogant. They ignore faults, service to me has been poor.

 

But then theres another that could open my wallet for anything they want to sell me, and I often buy way more than I need, getting carried away with the dream. I’m happy to order on a promise as confidence is hugely high, the engagement and enthusiasm is at very high levels. After sales I have not a worry at all.

 

Yes they are businesses, but behind every business is a person. The relationship has to be there, its just as important as why you are buying the model in the first place. Even if your only connecting with and buying from a retailer online..knowing the after sales exists, with a human is important for instance.

 

A long time ago Hornby became just a transaction, to the point I dont care, as its just a machine… even in person at the shows. Simon was the human, we all knew and carried that persona. Where this is now Ive no idea, but another quote comes to mind..

 

Michael O’Leary “The customer is usually wrong”…

 

You learn to know the boundaries (KR for example), whilst I question their accuracy I know I can trust them to deliver and they do the right thing with after sales too, thats grown through experience and seeing at shows they really arent the personas they are often labelled on here, the models arent bad but they could be much better.. However you know the level and you take it or leave it.

To me it is important to engage with your customer, even if its in person at a show rather than on a forum, afterall its not just a model your buying its like every transaction, its a trust to get an even platform between what they are making and your expectation of what your buying… when those two meet any barriers to a sale are removed.

 

Imo the reason model prices are inflating is because of competition… the larger variety of models is being diluted by a fixed sized pot of money. I believe Manufacturers are making less volume and ammortising cost on smaller runs to compensate. In turn buyers are becoming more selective on purchases. In this kind of market relationship is everything.. if you dont talk to your customer then your competitor is… so let them talk rubbish at you all day as long as its your cash register that keeps ringing and its not someone elses window they are shopping in.

 

All the words I highlighted can not be done by a computer, or a business, only by human interaction.

 

apologies for going way off topic, but I’m a person, with passion.

 

I'm probably the exact opposite of you, I don't really bother if the manufacturer engages or not, it doesn't affect what I purchase.

 

I only buy what fits in with my modelling criteria, if a manufacturer is engaging and all over forums and chatting at shows but they aren't making what I want, then I won't buy from them.  Conversely, if a manufacturer is silent but make a model I'm interested in, I'll check it out when it's released and make my mind up then.  I don't preorder and I've never missed out.

 

If I buy an oven, I don't go seek out and chat with AEG, or hunt down Lexus for a chinwag if I'm wanting a new car.  If they make what I want , then that's what I'll buy!

 

It's true that behind every business are people, but they are not my friends, and I am not theirs.  I've chatted with many at shows, and at socials after shows, and the vast majority are nice decent people, but at the end of the day it's a business transaction. They want the money I'm wanting to spend, but they need to be making what I am looking for.

 

Same with a retailer, if I'm buying face to face, I'll be pleasant and pass the time of day, but I won't just buy anything because they are being chatty, I'll buy only what I'm looking for.  If they ay nothing but have what I want then I'll buy! 

 

 

 

 

 

[adb968008]

6 hours ago, NBL said:

I'm probably the exact opposite of you, I don't really bother if the manufacturer engages or not, it doesn't affect what I purchase.

You just said you dont do what you you go on to say exactly what you do..
 

6 hours ago, NBL said:

 

Ive chatted with many at shows, and at socials after shows, and the vast majority are nice decent people, but at the end of the day it's a business transaction. They want the money I'm wanting to spend, but they need to be making what I am looking for.

 

Same with a retailer, if I'm buying face to face, I'll be pleasant and pass the time of day, but I won't just buy anything because they are being chatty, I'll buy only what I'm looking for.  If they ay nothing but have what I want then I'll buy! 

 

 

So I think you missed the point, i’ll try explain again..

 

its not about being pally pally…(though for pricing negotiations it can work, especially in asia !).

indeed the yeehaw informal approach from North America can be annoying, as its so very shallow, indeed dont even try to reciprocate as outside marketing its usually just plain corporate. 

 

Having someone explain the research, lessons learned, why decisions were made etc, conveys passion in their work. Explaining future plans, changes etc helps you formulate your own ideas, which in turn guide my personal decisions.

 

it also diffuses negativity, its hard to grimace at someone smiling at you. If they explain in advance why something isnt possible, or what they wont be doing, theres no unexpected surprises and less need for unpleasantness later.

 

Having manufacturers engage is imo positive, as long as its done right. That includes handling objections. However equally forum members also should respect the manufacturers, all too often it turns into a free for all.. though sometimes I suspect a bit of cloak and dagger by competitors, who do occasionally out themselves by doing so (i’ve a few suspicions, including in this thread).

 

A world without communication,  just binary transactions is a sad one imo… i’ll leave that for household appliances, thats not my hobby.

 

Edited October 24, 2023 by adb968008

[jjb1970]

For me it can work negatively (i.e. a manufacturer can turn me off to the point I'd avoid them) but it really doesn't bother me if manufacturers don't engage on forums. For me what matters is communication in terms of product information and a well designed website which is easy to navigate and tells me what I need to know. Yes, it is nice, but it's an extra which isn't essential.

Edited October 24, 2023 by jjb1970

[NBL]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

You just said you dont do what you you go on to say exactly what you do..
 

 

So I think you missed the point, i’ll try explain again..

 

its not about being pally pally…(though for pricing negotiations it can work, especially in asia !).

indeed the yeehaw informal approach from North America can be annoying, as its so very shallow, indeed dont even try to reciprocate as outside marketing its usually just plain corporate. 

 

Having someone explain the research, lessons learned, why decisions were made etc, conveys passion in their work. Explaining future plans, changes etc helps you formulate your own ideas, which in turn guide my personal decisions.

 

it also diffuses negativity, its hard to grimace at someone smiling at you. If they explain in advance why something isnt possible, or what they wont be doing, theres no unexpected surprises and less need for unpleasantness later.

 

Having manufacturers engage is imo positive, as long as its done right. That includes handling objections. However equally forum members also should respect the manufacturers, all too often it turns into a free for all.. though sometimes I suspect a bit of cloak and dagger by competitors, who do occasionally out themselves by doing so (i’ve a few suspicions, including in this thread).

 

A world without communication,  just binary transactions is a sad one imo… i’ll leave that for household appliances, thats not my hobby.

 

I didn't miss the point.

 

I'll chat with a supplier if they are offering something I'm looking for, but I won't spend hours talking about it, a cursory chat "excellent, I'll be sure to look out for that when its released" is enough for me, though I will chat for as long as about general modelling, the weather, tomato or brown sauce etc etc

 

What I am saying is that, personally, I don't need suppliers to be chatty and pally etc for me to buy their products. 

 

Sometimes I wonder just how much rest away from work and the hobby some of the suppliers who frequent this forum actually have, the constant, repeated, questions would really annoy me.

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, NBL said:

I didn't miss the point.

 

I'll chat with a supplier if they are offering something I'm looking for, but I won't spend hours talking about it, a cursory chat "excellent, I'll be sure to look out for that when its released" is enough for me, though I will chat for as long as about general modelling, the weather, tomato or brown sauce etc etc

 

What I am saying is that, personally, I don't need suppliers to be chatty and pally etc for me to buy their products. 

 

Sometimes I wonder just how much rest away from work and the hobby some of the suppliers who frequent this forum actually have, the constant, repeated, questions would really annoy me.

Fair enough.

 

From a salesmans perspective you sound like an easy sale… its either win quick or lose quick, both are ideal as it saves time for the next one. Money in the bank and move on.

 

nothing wrong with that. 

everyones different, hence we have forums, magazines, websites, model rail way shows etc to attract all types. For a lot of people the social side is important, for many diverse reasons.

 

A few years ago a neighbour i’d only just met before covid, his wife died decades ago. Turns out he had a huge model railway interest, he spent a lot of time between stations and our nearest model shop ( about an hour away)… i only found out because I saw him at Clapham watching 35028.. He didnt want anyone in our street to know… but he also told me he commutes an hour to the local shop, has his own mug, talks the owners ears off, buys a loco each time and takes one back to partex... its all about the relationship… offered to drive him (in his 80’s), he wont have it.. he stops for a natter at church too on his way back.

 

This hobby isnt like the financial services industry, its not all black and white transactions.

 

anyway back to topic…

 

apologies i’m not actually after an 88DS.. I kind of lost interest in it a long time ago.. might go for the blue one when it arrives, but theres not much discussion or details out there from the manufacturer to spark my interest Atm.

 

Thats why threads drift.

 

Edited October 24, 2023 by adb968008

[Ruston]

I only asked why no one from Hornby visits this forum. I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition. 😬

 

Have a look at an 88DS instead.

[Johan DC]

1 hour ago, Ruston said:

 I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition. 😬

 

 

Nobody did.... 😉

[rsh7684]

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKQ_sQKBASM

Edited October 24, 2023 by rsh7684
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