Hornby 2022 - Diesel/Electric Range

[Legend]

4 minutes ago, SamThomas said:

Don't remeber Fleischmann producing a Royal Scot, but they did do some nice Bullied Coaches & were rumoured to have a Bullied Pacific in the pipeline. Rivarossi & Trix produced some models in a sort of "between 3.5 & 4.0mm/foot" scale.

Ahh I'm getting mixed up . You are correct . Fleischmann did the Warship and Bullied coaches . It was Rivarossi that did Royal Scot and coaches . I think both were equally succesfull penetrating the British market though 

[PhilJ W]

54 minutes ago, SamThomas said:

Don't remember Fleischmann producing a Royal Scot, but they did do some nice Bullied Coaches & were rumoured to have a Bullied Pacific in the pipeline. Rivarossi & Trix produced some models in a sort of "between 3.5 & 4.0mm/foot" scale.

They used a scale of 1/80 (3.8mm to the foot). Trix produced a model of a Cross Country DMU that was quite popular in that scale. The 1/80 scale is sometimes called Japanese H0 scale and at one time was popular in Japan but has now been mostly supplanted by N scale.

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, PhilJ W said:

They used a scale of 1/80 (3.8mm to the foot). Trix produced a model of a Cross Country DMU that was quite popular in that scale.

Only because there isnt one in oo.

 

You can get pretty close to oo though by upgrading the bogies / chassis etc.

[adb968008]

10 hours ago, ellocoloco said:

I would suspect that if mainstream British producers manufactured in HO, many more US, Continental and other modellers would exercise Rule #1 to have a British model on their railway. I am thinking particularly of large steam which is a lot more colourful than its mostly black European and US counterparts and has a certain celebrity about it. Much in the way many non UP, or even non US modellers manage to have a Big Boy 'on shed' I would expect plenty to have a Scottie or Duchess lurking away to take its turn on the Orient Express. 

 

Being a OO market deprives GB outline producers of many potential incidental sales to HO scale modellers in other countries.

 

 

 

 

They dont need to… proof exists..

class 66 (several since 2012) and s160 (2017) are two of the latest UK run, European outline models made in HO.

The class 66 has been made in HO by Mehano, Heljan, ESU and Trix.

 

They havent made a UK class 66, only incidentals (such as ECR /Freightliner PL etc), that tells you what demand is percieved. Given how competitive the European market is with 4 competing class 66 models (and for example 70 different vectron liveries/variants out there in 2022 in model form)..you’d think they’d be falling over themselves for our 60+ class 66 liveries..but they are not.

 

if your in to UK HO however, you could justify Rush Rail, Captrain and a few others as they were towed across the UK for fitting out for UK operation / visited for maintenance, or adapt ECR or G&W (EU spec).

 

 

As you can see I dont take the hobby too seriously, theres Polish, Ukrainian, Russian, Belgium, South Africa, Japanese & UK on that top level sharing the track with 66957… heavily influenced by my travels, especially Poland and Hungary, and by the shunting of through international passenger train stock (whilst loaded with passengers) at Budapest in the early 2000’s.

 

on special offer, is a very close to British freight train…. a G&W (PF) class 66 and 4 ECC nacco bogie tanks, all in HO.

https://www.modellbahnunion.com/Spur-H0-00/Zugset-Diesellok-Class-66-Rail-Feeding-Digital-Sound-Knickkesselwagen-Nacco.htm?SessionId=&a=article&ProdNr=ESU-31281-Set&p=802

 

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by adb968008

[TomScrut]

17 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

you’d think they’d be falling over themselves for our 60+ class 66 liveries..but they are not.

 

Which is a shame really. It would be nice to have enough of a following to be able to get rid of OO in the mainstream really given the main reason for its existence is not the case anymore.

 

I'll stick by OO because it best suits my needs now, but HO would suit better if the products existed. N I think is just a bit too small for my liking, in terms of I never look at a layout in N at exhibitions etc and think they run well, any change in surface or whatever is effectively twice the size, so they look a bit more toy like I think in their running. Stock wise nowadays I think probably 75% of what I'd want is in N.

[ellocoloco]

What I was more thinking earlier when I posted was that if the UK had HO scale then as soon as the 37/58/87s etc went off to Europe, then Hornby and Bachmann etc would immediately have a new livery option and potential revenue stream.

@adb968008 I have a very similar selection with a decent length train of Sachsenmodelle Sleepers very similar to the ones shown above - which look great behind a NKP Hudson. I know OO and HO work fine together, but to me its wrong - so I painted my own.

 

 

Details of these two Mehano models on the British HO side of this forum. 

[adb968008]

44 minutes ago, ellocoloco said:

What I was more thinking earlier when I posted was that if the UK had HO scale then as soon as the 37/58/87s etc went off to Europe, then Hornby and Bachmann etc would immediately have a new livery option and potential revenue stream.

@adb968008 I have a very similar selection with a decent length train of Sachsenmodelle Sleepers very similar to the ones shown above - which look great behind a NKP Hudson. I know OO and HO work fine together, but to me its wrong - so I painted my own.

 

 

Details of these two Mehano models on the British HO side of this forum. 

I agree the boat has sailed on the 37/58/87.

I do recall a HO class 58 was considered by someone at one point but forget whom. (Circa 2004-8 when 58’s where with ACTS)

 

59003 was modelled by Lima in its Euro Yeoman livery in 00. It is probably the most sought after Lima model there is, made by an Austrian model shop c1999.

 

Maybe scope for Piko to consider a class 92 though, they are eating around the Eastern European market steadily, and 92’s cover France, Austria, Czech, Croatia, Bulgaria and Romania, theres still 15 left in storage, so theres scope for a few more to go travelling yet.

 

I wonder how popular the Hornby Floyd 56 and Romanian 92 have been in Europe ?

[Purnu]

On 20/01/2022 at 05:14, Hilux5972 said:

The Pullman ones are going to have a working headlight up top so good chance the Adventure ones will do as well. 

 
Here’s hoping. We’ll have to wait and see, I suppose nearer the release date we’ll find out.

[SamThomas]

18 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

They used a scale of 1/80 (3.8mm to the foot). Trix produced a model of a Cross Country DMU that was quite popular in that scale. The 1/80 scale is sometimes called Japanese H0 scale and at one time was popular in Japan but has now been mostly supplanted by N scale.

The 1/80 3.8mm ft scale was not too bad a compromise especially for people who mixed up the two scales.

 

[SamThomas]

17 hours ago, adb968008 said:

As you can see I dont take the hobby too seriously, theres Polish, Ukrainian, Russian, Belgium, South Africa, Japanese & UK on that top level sharing the track with 66957… heavily influenced by my travels, especially Poland and Hungary, and by the shunting of through international passenger train stock (whilst loaded with passengers) at Budapest in the early 2000’s.

A man after my own heart & I do like the way the stock is reflected by your travels.

 

Another post mentioned that Piko are "doing the rounds" with Eastern European stock which is making a few more modellers turning to that part of Europe. Having a quick trawl through the Roco new items there is a lot more stock to suit there as well.

 

maybe, there should be a separate thread for this discussion, I'd start one but really don't know what section to post it in ?

[Dixie Dean]

On 20/01/2022 at 12:52, caradoc said:

 

I still think it's a great shame that when Airfix and Mainline entered the RTR market in the 70s they did not go for HO, but as you say it's too late now ! 

 

 

I have to agree entirely.  That was just the right time to have changed.  It really is so absurd that we stick with OO.  But, sadly, it's all history, and I too can't see it changing anytime soon.

[adb968008]

4 hours ago, SamThomas said:

A man after my own heart & I do like the way the stock is reflected by your travels.

 

Another post mentioned that Piko are "doing the rounds" with Eastern European stock which is making a few more modellers turning to that part of Europe. Having a quick trawl through the Roco new items there is a lot more stock to suit there as well.

 

maybe, there should be a separate thread for this discussion, I'd start one but really don't know what section to post it in ?

Probably this thread..

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/forum/33-overseas-modelling/

 

 

Meanwhile Cavalex have announced £189 for their class 56.

So I guess the choice of class 56 has just been made a bit easier, compared to £217.

[SamThomas]

11 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Probably this thread..

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/forum/33-overseas-modelling/

I did think of that one but probably not many "OO" people venture there.

[Legend]

10 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

 

Meanwhile Cavalex have announced £189 for their class 56.

So I guess the choice of class 56 has just been made a bit easier, compared to £217.

Yep wake up and take notice Hornby . I know prices of raw materials and shipping is up because I see it in the day job , but two price increases of 10% ie 21% in total is jumping on the bandwagon . As an old Sales Director of mine used to say , rising prices was always a great time to get your prices and margins up because it was easy to justify . He used to get the increase and double it! 

[APT Fan]

44 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Probably this thread..

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/forum/33-overseas-modelling/

 

 

Meanwhile Cavalex have announced £189 for their class 56.

So I guess the choice of class 56 has just been made a bit easier, compared to £217.

 

I placed a pre-order for this and was expecting to pay £162. It was with a retailer I'd paid £99 for another Hornby 56 only seven months previous to this. Anyway, another retailer has me on their mailing list and as part of the Hornby 2022 annoucement, they mentioned Hornby have had this second %10 price rise on top of the 10% in August, so 20% in five months. I checked the catelogue an sure enough its £218 now. That's simply too much for me now as I have other more important bills to worry about and I certainly haven't had enough of a pay rise just to cover the basic inflation increases which affect life's essentials.

 

As has been pointed out on here these are luxury items and I'm now questioning whether I actually need an item when I look at it given some of the crazy prices. I think there was a bit of a boom in the hobby as a result of the lockdown but I think that bubble could well burst given the return to normal life and people turn to more outdoor hobbies.

 

I was talking to the owner of my local hobby shop who has been trading for many years and he reckons Hornby's pricing could kill the model railway hobby. As he put it, you are now approaching O gauge prices which I always think of as quite specialised. If the OO gauge prices become too prohibitive then perhaps OO gauge will become a specalist hobby too, not sure how that translates into numbers.

 

Anyway, it is what it is and I don't want to come across as a moaner. I'll just vote with my feet, I have other hobbies and will turn to them instead.

[ruggedpeak]

58 minutes ago, APT Fan said:

As has been pointed out on here these are luxury items and I'm now questioning whether I actually need an item when I look at it given some of the crazy prices. I think there was a bit of a boom in the hobby as a result of the lockdown but I think that bubble could well burst given the return to normal life and people turn to more outdoor hobbies.

 

I was talking to the owner of my local hobby shop who has been trading for many years and he reckons Hornby's pricing could kill the model railway hobby. As he put it, you are now approaching O gauge prices which I always think of as quite specialised. If the OO gauge prices become too prohibitive then perhaps OO gauge will become a specalist hobby too, not sure how that translates into numbers.

It won't kill the hobby, there is more than enough secondhand stock in circulation for it to continue and grow the detailing and accessory market. Hornby may kill their own business, but there may be enough collectors and new entrants not familiar with historic pricing. Dumping your 'old' customer base for a new one more accommodating of higher price levels is perfectly possible. And the new manufacturers are sufficiently savvy to keep the 'old' customers happy.

[APT Fan]

2 hours ago, ruggedpeak said:

It won't kill the hobby, there is more than enough secondhand stock in circulation for it to continue and grow the detailing and accessory market. Hornby may kill their own business, but there may be enough collectors and new entrants not familiar with historic pricing. Dumping your 'old' customer base for a new one more accommodating of higher price levels is perfectly possible. And the new manufacturers are sufficiently savvy to keep the 'old' customers happy.

 

I am obviously quoting a local model retailer, the model railway part of his business will be reliant in part on selling new loco's rather than secondhand. He has that second hand section because the punters love the rummage boxes but it sounds like that doesn't pay the bills. Looking at his display stock, it looks to me like his high detail stuff from Hornby and Bachmann isn't shifting, some stuff is a couple of years old, he can't price match so going forward it would be a risk to stock such items. He seems to have quite a few of those Hornby 66's - that's the cheap stuff isn't it? This isn't a wealthy area and perhaps if that stock moves then that could be a good market for him and that could be sustainable. If not I could see him dropping the model railway stock and focusing more on other model hobbies which still seem very popular. It just seems to me that the prices are driving the high detail Hornby stock towards being 'specialist'. You have to be really keen to be spending £220-250 on one loco but I do get it, if it is the perfect fit for all your requirements and ticks all the boxes then fine. If Hornby have got that number right in terms of quantities and people prepared to pay the asking prices then fair play, good luck to them. My prediction is that some people might not have the disposal income to spend on such luxury items due to the extraordinary inflation that we will see this year.    

[ThaneofFife]

i think its focuses the mindset more - in previous years you could just splash out on models whenever the fancy took you but now i think more people will batten the hatches down and very carefully think about purchases before giving the credit card details oover.  it coud be argued that we were in a period perhaps of modelling "excess"?   i dont mind now if i need to hold back more and think more before making a purchase.    scary to think that if we continue to see 20% increases on dcc ready locos from Hornby  say from the above example at the now £218 rrp you could be looking at more than £300 for a loco in 2 years time. remember thats dcc ready only no decoder no sound.

[PhilJ W]

Over the past couple of years my disposable income has has increased far more than any actual increase and others have said the same. The reason is not hard to fathom out, no exhibitions or other events to attend due to lockdowns and social distancing. That no doubt will soon change due to the lifting of restrictions.

[adb968008]

I think weve definitely had it lucky the amount of new models tooled in the last few years. I don't think theres ever been a time where so many new toolings have been created in such a short time scale.

it cannot exponentially grow forever, it could be in 2022 we reach a peak, as pent up delayed releases start to funnel through ?

 

it could be some manufacturers are expecting a spending slow down, and realise they need to maximise the revenue from the stock they have got coming to counter that gap. It doesn't preclude some fatalities and mergers though if companies get that strategy wrong. However history shows companies fade, toolings survive. Higher prices is a threat to new sales, imo especially risky when making duplications or one off prototypes where less value can be extracted from a re-releasing tooling in the future as people stick with what they have, when money is tight.

 

The second hand market always exists, and imo is set to thrive, firstly covid has accelerated some age attrition, and put natural deaths ahead of the curve. This may slow down the usual releases of estate sales, whilst increasing spend of those surviving. Secondly price is a barrier to new sales, but not the hobby, those who want to practice it, will find solace in second hand, amongst all age groups. Thirdly, those with a lot of pandemic purchases, may seek to release funds for holidays, cars, inflation etc thus feeding that market. Generally the second hand market survives inflation quite well as quite a lot gets recycled in purchases and sales.

 

So higher new prices we may just have to live with, and it may lead to a reduced volume of new tooled releases will be less impactful on the wallet in the longer term. I think the hobby is healthy, theres plenty of stock to go around and a healthy demand at the right price.

Its only an issue if huge numbers quit and give up (Pelaton ?), and there is definitely no sign of that… 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 22, 2022 by adb968008

[APT Fan]

On 22/01/2022 at 19:39, ThaneofFife said:

i think its focuses the mindset more - in previous years you could just splash out on models whenever the fancy took you but now i think more people will batten the hatches down and very carefully think about purchases before giving the credit card details oover.  it coud be argued that we were in a period perhaps of modelling "excess"?   i dont mind now if i need to hold back more and think more before making a purchase.    scary to think that if we continue to see 20% increases on dcc ready locos from Hornby  say from the above example at the now £218 rrp you could be looking at more than £300 for a loco in 2 years time. remember thats dcc ready only no decoder no sound.

 

Yes, so £218 and then if you wanted sound, you'd have to fit it yourself for an extra £100/110. So £330 maybe? That's more than the new Bachmann 47 with sound which I've seen for about £290 which offers more functionality and has the latest tooling. The Hornby 56 will be the same tooling with an 8 pin socket without a factory fitted sound option which traditionally offers a saving. Even with a standard £20 Zimo decoder, we are into £240 and probably £280 by the time it reaches the streets at the end of the year. I think it's healthy that Hornby now have competition in the 56 market and we'll see how that plays out. I've heard it mentioned about the unknowns of what the quality will be like from Cavalex, well they won't have to be perfect to beat Hornby. My Hornby 56 is a good runner with a great mechanism but the build quality is not the best and I'm sick of things falling off when I pick it up, I don't get that with my Bachmann stock. I think this more than anything else is the reason I'm questioning why I'd be forking out £218 for a DC loco. I bought a Bachmann 158 DMU with sound for £270 and its fantastic, love it, I thought that price was really good value for money considering all the features that came with it out of the box.  

[Jamescav95]

Sorry If I have missed it but do we know if the Midland Pullman HST and Mk3 are the new tooling or old?

[CazRail]

On 26/01/2022 at 23:40, Jamescav95 said:

Sorry If I have missed it but do we know if the Midland Pullman HST and Mk3 are the new tooling or old?

From the illustrations in the catalogue, looks like they'll be the new tooling. 

[The Cat Called Charlie]

On 26/01/2022 at 23:40, Jamescav95 said:

Sorry If I have missed it but do we know if the Midland Pullman HST and Mk3 are the new tooling or old?

 

According to Nigel Burkin in the latest Rail Express Modeller supplement the Midland Pullman stock has been held back so it can be produced with the new tooling and features.

 

Charlie.

[Ouroborus]

and the cynic in me thinks new prices too. 

 

£600 worth of APT is going back to shop this week thanks to a blown motor.  I'd be more hopeful about the HST, but my faith in Hornby has been going downhill.  The blue pullman was a bit of a treat for me - wondering if its worth it or whether it'll be another problem child