Hornby 2022 Black 5 new tooling

[Chameleon]

I think they realise out of a class of 842 locos, they will have 1000 plus variations. It is probably the most convoluted and complex class of locos ever produced. Different batches, builders, rebuilds etc. I did notice the BIG pile of books on the subject he had! 
i expect they will cover the main batches and build versions. From the look of the cads they had on screen they had about 5 different cabs and several boiler and tender variations. 
simon did say they could get 14-15 years of locos out of this model so it will return its investment. 
everyone will probably have a preferred or specific loco they will want do I doubt everyone will get what they want. The various preserved locos should be easy enough to produce and check they’ve got the details right. 

[MikeParkin65]

Its a shame that Hornby dont engage with 'us' like they used to in the much missed original format of the Engine Shed. I suspect the main proponents of that level and style of engagement have now joined the competition. That said (and having not seen this weeks edition of 'A model world') the screen grabs of the Black Five look very promising indeed. If they have tooled enough variation to cover the majority of the class then they will indeed have a suite of tools that has the potential to generate a return for a good 10 to 20 years depending on how many they release each catalogue year.

 

The Black Five is a canny business choice equaled only by the Class 37 and 47  and 66 for potential sales from a set of tools. 

[Wheatley]

6 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Then chuck in the fact that at works visits engines could emerge with a different type of boiler from the one they carried when they went into works.

 

Thus any photo, or indeed preserved loco, simply represents a particular engine at a certain date in its life and it could easily have been different at a different date during its working life. 

Tell me about it. Two of the locos which crop up most regularly in photos of 'my' route are 45480 and 44995, long term residents of Dumfries. "With so many pics modelling them should be easy" I thought as I sat down to match pics to the pile of Black Fives carefully collected over the years. No chance - it seems as though the only thing St Rollox didn't manage to change on either of them over the years was the wheelbase.  

[Hroth]

1 hour ago, Wheatley said:

Tell me about it. Two of the locos which crop up most regularly in photos of 'my' route are 45480 and 44995, long term residents of Dumfries. "With so many pics modelling them should be easy" I thought as I sat down to match pics to the pile of Black Fives carefully collected over the years. No chance - it seems as though the only thing St Rollox didn't manage to change on either of them over the years was the wheelbase.  

 

So the works made a right Rollox of them?

 

sorry....  (tiptoes out)

 

[wappinghigh]

On 08/03/2023 at 03:58, MikeParkin65 said:

Its a shame that Hornby dont engage with 'us' like they used to in the much missed original format of the Engine Shed. I suspect the main proponents of that level and style of engagement have now joined the competition. That said (and having not seen this weeks edition of 'A model world') the screen grabs of the Black Five look very promising indeed. If they have tooled enough variation to cover the majority of the class then they will indeed have a suite of tools that has the potential to generate a return for a good 10 to 20 years depending on how many they release each catalogue year.

 

The Black Five is a canny business choice equaled only by the Class 37 and 47  and 66 for potential sales from a set of tools. 

Has one of the 18  "as preserved" actual Black5's been announced in this Hornby retooling yet? Thanks

Edited April 3, 2023 by wappinghigh

[Standards_in_OO]

29 minutes ago, wappinghigh said:

Has one of the 18  "as preserved" actual Black5's been announced in this Hornby retooling yet? Thanks

As far as I know they haven’t. I did think The Glasgow Highlander was but realised another black 5 must have carried this name in preservation at some point as Hornby used it on their website next to the product number last year. I hope they do some of the preserved ones in the future, would really like an Eric Tracey. 

[Steamport Southport]

18 hours ago, Standards_in_OO said:

As far as I know they haven’t. I did think The Glasgow Highlander was but realised another black 5 must have carried this name in preservation at some point as Hornby used it on their website next to the product number last year. I hope they do some of the preserved ones in the future, would really like an Eric Tracey. 

 

45407 often changes identity when working The Jacobite. They like the engines to be named with Scottish names for the tourists.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ingythewingy/12682897785/in/photostream/

 

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/45407-lms-5407-br-45407/

 

It normally carries The Lancashire Fusilier nameplates and it's own number when at the East Lancs.

 

 

Jason

[Standards_in_OO]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

45407 often changes identity when working The Jacobite. They like the engines to be named with Scottish names for the tourists.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ingythewingy/12682897785/in/photostream/

 

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/45407-lms-5407-br-45407/

 

It normally carries The Lancashire Fusilier nameplates and it's own number when at the East Lancs.

 

 

Jason

Thanks for sharing. Any of the black 5’s that are on the Jacobite would be welcome! 

[wappinghigh]

1 hour ago, Standards_in_OO said:

Thanks for sharing. Any of the black 5’s that are on the Jacobite would be welcome! 

"45407 often changes identity when working The Jacobite. They like the engines to be named with Scottish names for the tourists."

 

LOL that's hilarious!

 

and fascinating..

 

So they cheat?

 

It's really 45407 (in disguise) but they rebadge it the "Glasgow Highlander" (which was actually scrapped years ago) ?

Including slapping on the different cab and smoke box numbers! Is that what you are saying?

 

As a modeller who likes to stick to genuinely preserved locomotives - Maybe I could do the "reverse"?!   

Edited April 4, 2023 by wappinghigh

[Wheatley]

32 minutes ago, wappinghigh said:

 

LOL that's hilarious!

 

and fascinating..

 

So they cheat?

Yes, as do many other preserved locos with nothing to do with the Jacobite. 'Bittern' seems to be working its way through the A4 back catalogue for example. 

[wappinghigh]

Who actually owns 45407? 

 

And how are these "leasing" arrangements organised?

 

thanks

[johnd]

8 minutes ago, wappinghigh said:

Who actually owns 45407? 

 

And how are these "leasing" arrangements organised?

 

thanks

 

Ian Riley of Ian Riley engineering based at Heywood, Gtr Manchester next to the ELR.

[pH]

4 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

45407 often changes identity when working The Jacobite.

Do they ever use the identity of any of the Black 5s which were allocated to Fort William in BR steam days?

[JonathonAG]

23 hours ago, pH said:

Do they ever use the identity of any of the Black 5s which were allocated to Fort William in BR steam days?

 

Back when the West Highland Photography Charters ran in the Autumn's, the rostered locomotives would often be renumbered to local examples.  This included K1 No. 62005 becoming No. 62052, No. 61264 becoming 61244, No. 76079 to 76001 and No. 45407 to No. 44996.  This isn't a comprehensive list, there were several other numbers worn over the different events.

 

As for No. 45157, Mr Riley did indeed have No. 45407 run as the classmate during the earlier years of his ownership.  After returning to her own identity for over 15 years, it was suggested to Mr Riley that the Black 5 be re-dressed into No. 45157 for 2018 in a nod to the 150th anniversary of the formation of 'The Glasgow Highlanders'.  She wore it for a year, and then reverted back to No. 45407 (this time continuing to sport blue backed smokebox plates).

 

As there hasn't been a photographer's charter since 2014 (Featuring No. 45407, 61994 and 62005 wearing their own numbers), there has been much less demand to dress up the resident locomotives as other classmates and as such the 2018 stint of '45157' has been the only occasion since 2010.

 

 

[pH]

Interesting - 44996 was an Eastfield engine and so would have been seen at Fort William, but doesn’t seem to have ever been allocated there. When I asked the question, I was thinking more of the 4497x lot, several of which were Fort William engines.

Edited April 5, 2023 by pH

[JonathonAG]

46 minutes ago, pH said:

Interesting - 44996 was an Eastfield engine and so would have been seen at Fort William, but doesn’t seem to have ever been allocated there. When I asked the question, I was thinking more of the 4497x lot, several of which were Fort William engines.

 

No. 45407 did dress up as Fort William allocated No. 45487 during the 2010 charters.

[wappinghigh]

On 07/03/2023 at 21:50, The Stationmaster said:

They've gota job on if they are going to cover all the variations - domed and domeless boilers, several different types of top feed covers and feed pipe arrangement, differing positions of a smokebox oil pipe, at least two different patterns of single chimney, valvegear variants with or without double chimney, at least two different fireboxes with a different number of washout plugs.  Then chuck in the fact that at works visits engines could emerge with a different type of boiler from the one they carried when they went into works.

 

Thus any photo, or indeed preserved loco, simply represents a particular engine at a certain date in its life and it could easily have been different at a different date during its working life.  To capture all of that accurately needs not only the right sort of provision for the variations during design but a really good researcher who understands what he/she is looking at and knows what to look for.  Hornby has, I think, got the design skills needed but does it have a researcher with that depth of knowledge and the references needed for the research that is essential to capture and date all the variations?  And as importantly is Hornby prepared to invest the amounts needed to capture all the variations?

 

I'm sure that they'll manage a pretty good/very good Black Five but I wonder if they'll bother with all the variations, especially in valvegear - for cost reasons alone.

 

PS I see there are some screen grabs of the Black Five in the TT120 thread and they appear to have got most of the visible detail alteration of boiler fitting plus what looks like three different boiler/firebox versions including the top feed on the front ring of the boiler (the least common one I think).  So they are in fact well on the way - their main task will be to get the details to match running numbers but they clearly have at least one illustrated reference source.

They did a very good job with all the variations on the Scotsman 100 yr releases. Sure the Black5 has even more variations! (I get it!) 

[wappinghigh]

On 06/04/2023 at 05:46, JonathonAG said:

 

Back when the West Highland Photography Charters ran in the Autumn's, the rostered locomotives would often be renumbered to local examples.  This included K1 No. 62005 becoming No. 62052, No. 61264 becoming 61244, No. 76079 to 76001 and No. 45407 to No. 44996.  This isn't a comprehensive list, there were several other numbers worn over the different events.

 

As for No. 45157, Mr Riley did indeed have No. 45407 run as the classmate during the earlier years of his ownership.  After returning to her own identity for over 15 years, it was suggested to Mr Riley that the Black 5 be re-dressed into No. 45157 for 2018 in a nod to the 150th anniversary of the formation of 'The Glasgow Highlanders'.  She wore it for a year, and then reverted back to No. 45407 (this time continuing to sport blue backed smokebox plates).

 

As there hasn't been a photographer's charter since 2014 (Featuring No. 45407, 61994 and 62005 wearing their own numbers), there has been much less demand to dress up the resident locomotives as other classmates and as such the 2018 stint of '45157' has been the only occasion since 2010.

 

 

Fascinating stuff! Thanks  so much for posting this intriguing recent history. Boys with their toys just renumbering the real things (just like us modellers! ) This is hilarious. So do I get the new tooled Highlander and simply renumber it back to an original 45407? (Fox transfers has the correct name plate) Maybe I just swap on/off the name, smoke box and cabplates, to suit the era I am modelling at the time (just like Mr Riley!)  😂 

Edited April 7, 2023 by wappinghigh

[wappinghigh]

BTW I assume the new Hornby release of Glasgow Highlander is fairly close to what is running up there in Scotland right now? But they are selling it as Era 5. So how close (in terms of possible Black5 variations mentioned on previous posts) is the new R30226 Glasgow Highlander to it's original as 45407? Is the model as Highlander was "in Era 5", or as it is now (Era 11)? Have there been any significant changes to the actual locomotive (in the passing decades)? ...similar to the way other private owners bastardised Scotsman over the years... just curious and Thanks! 

Edited April 7, 2023 by wappinghigh

[Phil Bullock]

16 minutes ago, wappinghigh said:

BTW I assume the new Hornby release of Glasgow Highlander is fairly close to what is running up there in Scotland right now? But they are selling it as Era 5. So how close (in terms of possible Black5 variations mentioned on previous posts) is the new R30226 Glasgow Highlander to it's original as 45407? Is the model as Highlander was "in Era 5", or as it is now (Era 11)? Have there been any significant changes to the actual locomotive (in the passing decades)? ...similar to the way other private owners bastardised Scotsman over the years... just curious and Thanks! 

My knowledge of Black 5s is not great … but the era 5 45157 should have a boiler with combined dome and top feed …45157 … whereas if the Hornby Model is as per their photo it has a seperate dome and top feed making it the Era 11 version
 

[wappinghigh]

^Thanks for that! This is such an awesome hobby. Whether you run models or the real thing! Praise be to Mr Riley for keeping these fantastic steam engines "alive"! He needs to be knighted!  (Just like Sir Pegler) 

[wappinghigh]

22 minutes ago, Phil Bullock said:

My knowledge of Black 5s is not great … but the era 5 45157 should have a boiler with combined dome and top feed …45157 … whereas if the Hornby Model is as per their photo it has a seperate dome and top feed making it the Era 11 version
 

Ok. Sure.. (great photo of the original) So Hornby marketing this new model as "Era 5"(...57-66.).. I guess these dome changes were done before then?  Or maybe not! ?? 😅

Edited April 7, 2023 by wappinghigh

[wappinghigh]

^Wait R20226  on Hornby's original site has the single dome... 

Edited April 7, 2023 by wappinghigh

[Phil Bullock]

10 minutes ago, wappinghigh said:

Ok. Sure.. (great photo of the original) So Hornby marketing this new model as "Era 5"(...57-66.).. I guess these dome changes were done before then?  Or maybe not! ?? 😅

That was the type of boiler fitted when she was built …. And I suspect she still carried it when she went for scrap

[Phil Bullock]

6 minutes ago, wappinghigh said:

^Wait R20226  on Hornby's original site has the single dome... 

 

Correct for the era 5 loco then….