Hornby 2022 Black 5 new tooling

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

I thought it was supposed to be lamps ?

 

As you well know the automotive industry does not use the railway rulebook* nor rail industry* norms…..

 

Hence why they (and society at large uses ‘bulb’ to mean an electric light source).

 

As such given the way motorists are able to replace / repair / service vehicles themselves  it makes perfect sense for things like the MOT test to refer to what the motor industry calls them rather than applying railway industry rules to non railway stuff!

 

However in terms of trying to describe the purpose of the lamps on UK locos and how they differ from most of the rest of the world comparisons with motor vehicles is a useful yardstick.

 

Once the above is properly understood by both manufacturers and designers it becomes apparent that it’s a much more tricky thing to realise with what might be termed ‘standard’** electrical components / techniques than is the case with other countries railway locos.

 

* Being something entirely new the pioneers of the railway industry used the British army as a role model in terms of how they structured themselves - hence the emphasis put on ‘rules’, the various job titles seen in the industry with the word ‘officer’ in them and the culture of preserving its own way of doing things. As any military commander will tell you making sure that choosing one term and sticking with it helps eliminate confusion within the ranks and delays while clarification is sought when quick responses are needed.

 

** That is to say items which are already mass produced - I’m sure it would be possible to make I insanely tiny LEDs for example but if the only thing which is going to use them is RTR OO gauge British steam locos then the cost of developing them far outstrips the potential sales and is thus not worth it.

[cctransuk]

1 minute ago, adb968008 said:

So remove the lights… they are supposedly configurable with lamp irons in the bag.

 

No doubt a good shop like TMC could probably do it for you.

 

 

 

 

Because they are aprototypical, and I shouldn't have too.

 

That's enough for me not to purchase several and to, reluctantly, proceed with my far more labour-intensive alternative Black Five projects.

 

Keep it simple - but well-detailed, I say!

 

CJI.

[MikeParkin65]

3 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

So remove the lights… they are supposedly configurable with lamp irons in the bag.

 

No doubt a good shop like TMC could probably do it for you.

This is the evolution the W1 and 6202 didnt have, and presumably done with people with flexible requirements like yourself in mind.

it shouldnt be any different to choosing whether or not to add a snowplough or coupling shank.

 

Perfectly capable of doing it myself but as I think you said earlier - reluctant to  - and why should I on what is marketed as a scale model and costs north of £200? True it shouldnt be any different to ' choosing whether or not to add a snowplough or coupling shank' but clearly it is! This has been demonstrated on various YouTube reviews.  

[Wheatley]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

how much does 3x 0204 leds, a bit of wire cost, and cutting a few 3x4mm pieces of plastic off a sprue.

Pennies, but the development costs don't. Someone had had to spend time developing CAD drawings for lamps, the socket, the light tube (or whatever the hell it is it's pugged into) - quite a lot of time if some of the conversations with Hornby staff recalled further up this thread are anything to go by. Then additional cost for the extra tooling EPs, revisions to tooling, etc.  As opposed to designing a 1/2mm hole for a stamped metal lamp iron to be pushed into. 

 

Ditton anything on a wagon between the solebars that can't be seen below the solebars, working cab doors on the Hornby 08 that have (I think) 5 additional parts each, interior detail which can't be seen on the current crop of Hornby brake vans etc. Save it for the things where the interior detail can be seen like coaches, or deisels with greenhouse cabs. The Heljan Class 17 looks ridiculous with the cab half filled with concrete. 

 

I might buy one of these if the BR versions end up being remaindered. I'm quite capable of cutting bits off a brand new £200 model, but I'd rather spend the time and money adding bits to two second-hand older ones. I had a good look at 5020 in my local dealer yesterday and wasn't impressed. 

Edited April 25 by Wheatley

[adb968008]

15 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Because they are aprototypical, and I shouldn't have too.

 

That's enough for me not to purchase several and to, reluctantly, proceed with my far more labour-intensive alternative Black Five projects.

 

Keep it simple - but well-detailed, I say!

 

CJI.

Whats aprototypical….?

 

A Black 5 probably carried every possible configuration possible of  [choose word of choice] (lamp/light/lantern/candle/flame/inflammable device).

 

No one would ever agree which one it should come out of the factory with, and until today the choice was none anyway.

 

I guess the real question is… should they have made the model with no lamps fitted, and left the modeller to do it themselves…

 

We all know the majority would never open the parts bag, so most models with lamps would be wasted.

 

But will it hurt sales ?

 

Its possible lamp objections might hurt retailer sales, but equally this polarising gizmo might be attracting customers into shops to look at it… But Hornbys customer is the retailer, and I bet right now they probably want a few to show those drawn in…

 

if the model has other issues, being suggested, thats a different story.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 25 by adb968008

[cctransuk]

1 minute ago, adb968008 said:

Whats aprototypical….?

 

A Black 5 probably carried every possible configuration possible of  [choose word of choice] (lamp/light/lantern/candle/flame/inflammable device).

 

No one would ever agree which one it should come out of the factory with, and until today the choice was none anyway.

 

I guess the real question is… should they have made the model with no lamps fitted, and left the modeller to do it themselves…

 

We all know the majority would never open the parts bag, so most models with lamps would be wasted.

 

But will it hurt sales ?

 

Its possible lamp objections might hurt retailer sales, but equally this polarising gizmo might be attracting customers into shops to look at it… But Hornbys customer is the retailer, and I bet right now they probably want a few to show those drawn in…

 

if the model has other issues, being suggested, thats a different story.

 

 

 

Aprototypical - not prototypical.

 

Should the model have no lamps - YES.

 

Will the novelty factor outweigh the negative polarising effect - I sincerely doubt it.

 

CJI.

[adb968008]

17 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Aprototypical - not prototypical.

 

Should the model have no lamps - YES.

 

Will the novelty factor outweigh the negative polarising effect - I sincerely doubt it.

 

CJI.

I might be wrong, but I reckon Hornby are munching extra popcorn and having a good laugh at this thread, a Friday lunchtime sweepstakes up for grabs betting on which of us makes the most outlandish statement.

 

For me, this initial model has the bling thing not right. I’m hoping coupling and warping isnt a wider issue. The rest of it looks bob on.

 

My concern holding me back is the trend of the initial 10% off becoming a 25% off in 6-8 weeks… a £229 model being £210 suddenly being £170.. and then me painting another £50 off its resale some day means I be a £90 mug loser today, but waiting 6-8 weeks and losing only £50 isnt so bad, considering It maybe years before I ever get bored of it and consolidate that loss… I still have my 5241 from 1993… paid £30 for that and bought a £30 loco drive chassis for it 10 years ago… and fitted my own lamp irons to it, made from match stick shavings… if I ever sold it I bet I might get my original £30 back.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 25 by adb968008

[smr248]

9 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

A Black 5 probably carried every possible configuration possible of  [choose word of choice] (lamp/light/lantern/candle/flame/inflammable device).

 

 

 

 

"Inflammable" is not a word you can use in 2024.  It became "flammable" due to too many people not understanding what it actually meant.  It might have been prototypical then but now it's use is potentially inflammatory...

[cctransuk]

1 minute ago, adb968008 said:

I might be wrong, but I reckon Hornby are munching extra popcorn and having a good laugh at this thread.

 

For me, this initial model has the bling thing not right. I’m hoping coupling and warping isnt a wider issue. The rest of it looks bob on.

 

My concern holding me back is the trend of the initial 10% off becoming a 25% off in 6-8 weeks… a £229 model being £210 suddenly being £170.. and then me painting another £50 off its resale some day means I be a £90 mug loser today, but waiting 6-8 weeks and losing only £50 isnt so bad, considering It maybe years before I ever get bored of it and consolidate that loss…

 

Ah - that's where we differ; for me, a loco is for life, not just my attention-span.

 

Unfortunately for my offspring, a mammoth task awaits on my demise - disposing of a lifetime's collection of model railway stock, and a mammoth library of railway books.

 

I will not, from wherever I find myself, blame them for dumping the lot on dealers and realising only a tiny fraction of their true resale value.

 

My model purchases must provide value for money IN MY LIFETIME - I will not see any personal financial return!

 

CJI.

[maico]

12 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

I suggest you pay attention to what Hornby model - i.e. British Trains!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I posted a photo of a loco made for the British market with lights more than 80 years ago not 50 as you said.

 

Here is the Marklin 1938 British catalogue. Not really British outline of course but more toy like.

 

 

Edited April 25 by maico

[adb968008]

2 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Ah - that's where we differ; for me, a loco is for life, not just my attention-span.

 

Unfortunately for my offspring, a mammoth task awaits on my demise - disposing of a lifetime's collection of model railway stock, and a mammoth library of railway books.

 

I will not, from wherever I find myself, blame them for dumping the lot on dealers and realising only a tiny fraction of their true resale value.

 

My model purchases must provide value for money IN MY LIFETIME - I will not see any personal financial return!

 

CJI.

Truth be known, you and me both, and probably a whole lot more of us on this forum are in the same boat there.

 

 

Edited April 25 by adb968008

[Roy Langridge]

40 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

The question to answer is this - would the new Black Five have sold as well, or even better, WITHOUT working lamps, close-coupled(??) tender and 'bling' all over the place?

 

IMHO, a resounding 'better' - I have two or three Black Five projects that I would willing have sold on, if only I could have had an 'Accurascale' standard model, without gimmicks that I would then have to remove.

 

In this case (and others), Hornby are trying too hard - concentrate on producing quality models of popular prototypes, that are demonstrably superor to what is already on the market.

 

Ditch the gimmicks - they are more trouble than they are worth!

 

CJI.

But you have no facts to back up those statements, and nor do I to counter them.
 

Hornby may be sitting there with the sales figures stunned at the complaints on here and, metaphorically, laughing all the way to the bank.

 

A few months from now, let’s see what is getting sold off cheaply, then we can make a better informed judgement. 

 

Roy

[phil-b259]

3 minutes ago, maico said:

 

I posted a photo of a loco made for the British market with lights more than 80 years ago not 50 as you said.

 

Here is the Marklin 1938 British catalogue

 

 

Yes and very crude it looks too!

 

In this day and age we expect considerably finer and better detail so simply whacking a couple of large immovable lamps on the front doesn’t cut it.

[adb968008]

11 minutes ago, maico said:

 

I posted a photo of a loco made for the British market with lights more than 80 years ago not 50 as you said.

 

Here is the Marklin 1938 British catalogue

 

 

Was that in expectation of a Germanic conquest of the UK being successful ?

 

That LNER pacific looks more like a Polish Pm36, the Streamlined LMS one like an SNCB Type 12.
 

odd observeration, but those R numbers  never aged well..

R742 became a white ferry van

R749 is a yellow crane

 

but the rest…

 

R765 became the red Triang hall, with number 25555

R842 is a red black 5…

R849 became a Thomas set

R865 stayed as a freight set, becoming a GWR freight set.

 

 

 

Edited April 25 by adb968008

[phil-b259]

3 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:

.

Hornby may be sitting there with the sales figures stunned at the complaints on here and, metaphorically, laughing all the way to the bank.

 

I doubt it - mainly because of the quality control issues which have emerged.

 

Whats the point of fancy gizmos like working lamps if the model itself can’t be used to haul trains….

[cctransuk]

5 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:

But you have no facts to back up those statements, and nor do I to counter them.
 

Hornby may be sitting there with the sales figures stunned at the complaints on here and, metaphorically, laughing all the way to the bank.

 

A few months from now, let’s see what is getting sold off cheaply, then we can make a better informed judgement. 

 

Roy

 

Indeed, hence the 'IMHO'; in such matters we can only use our own best judgement.

 

Time will tell!

 

CJI.

[Roy Langridge]

1 minute ago, phil-b259 said:

I doubt it - mainly because of the quality control issues which have emerged.

 

Whats the point of fancy gizmos like working lamps if the model itself can’t be used to haul trains….

But, again, do we know how widespread those issues are? RMWeb is great, but it also makes mountains out of molehills at times. Any manufacturing process will have failures, that does not mean they are all wrong. 
 

Roy

[phil-b259]

4 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Was that in expectation of a Germanic conquest of the UK being successful ?

 

That LNER pacific looks more like a Polish Pm36, the Streamlined LMS one like an SNCB Type 12.

 

 

In other words European prototypes with built in lamps that do not move / disappear like most British locos.

[adb968008]

8 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

In other words European prototypes with built in lamps that do not move / disappear like most British locos.

i Think those models could be interpreted as anything !

 

Edited April 25 by adb968008

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

Where did the idea of changeable lamp positions come from?.

Probably because someone at Hornby realised that when looking through photos of British trains the position and number of lamps varies hugely and it dawned on them that simply offering one configuration would  be a bad idea.

 

Thing is I get the appeal of working lamps on steam locos as a feature - and the fact it’s generally easy to do on European / North American prototypes will have furled the ‘why can’t we do the same for British modellers thoughts’

 

The problem is all down to how British Railways used and deployed their movable lamps - it makes any attempts far more difficult and costly than has been the case for other countries….

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

 

The question to answer is this - would the new Black Five have sold as well, or even better, WITHOUT working lamps, close-coupled(??) tender and 'bling' all over the place?

 

IMHO, a resounding 'better' - I have two or three Black Five projects that I would willing have sold on, if only I could have had an 'Accurascale' standard model, without gimmicks that I would then have to remove.

 

In this case (and others), Hornby are trying too hard - concentrate on producing quality models of popular prototypes, that are demonstrably superor to what is already on the market.

 

Ditch the gimmicks - they are more trouble than they are worth!

 

CJI.

 

I can understand some complaints (all minor), but "bling"?

 

So they release it in the correct livery and people still moan....

 

 

 

Jason

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

So remove the lights… they are supposedly configurable with lamp irons in the bag.

 

No doubt a good shop like TMC could probably do it for you.

This is the evolution the W1 and 6202 didnt have, and presumably done with people with flexible requirements like yourself in mind.

it shouldnt be any different to choosing whether or not to add a snowplough or coupling shank.

 

Reconfigurable lamps on the W1 and Turbomotive are less important because, except when running light, they seldom carried anything other than Class 1.

 

Black Fives worked virtually anything, so the lights need to be frequently and therefore easily, moveable by the user.

 

The last thing we need is having Rule One imposed on those of us who care about prototypical operation.

 

John

[Wheatley]

39 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

Unfortunately for my offspring, a mammoth task awaits on my demise - disposing of a lifetime's collection of model railway stock

All of which has been upgraded, modified, renumbered, repainted, weathered and generally made more realistic thereby reducing it's resale value even further.

 

Oh dear how sad never mind, not my problem. Like you I don't care what happens to it after it's finished working for me. My wife has a list of email addresses of people who might be interested in some of it (individuals and clubs), otherwise either bury it with me or (more likely) give it a Viking funeral. 

 

[Dunsignalling]

38 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Was that in expectation of a Germanic conquest of the UK being successful ?

 

That LNER pacific looks more like a Polish Pm36, the Streamlined LMS one like an SNCB Type 12.
 

odd observeration, but those R numbers  never aged well..

R742 became a white ferry van

R749 is a yellow crane

 

but the rest…

 

R765 became the red Triang hall, with number 25555

R842 is a red black 5…

R849 became a Thomas set

R865 stayed as a freight set, becoming a GWR freight set.

 

 

 

 

And R.074 was variously one of the fifty versions of Flying Scotsman, a Hymek, 41 Squadron, and probably a couple of other things beside!

[adb968008]

11 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Reconfigurable lamps on the W1 and Turbomotive are less important because, except when running light, they seldom carried anything other than Class 1.

 

Black Fives worked virtually anything, so the lights need to be frequently and therefore easily, moveable by the user.

 

The last thing we need is having Rule One imposed on those of us who care about prototypical operation.

 

John

Exactly…

ive repeatedly said…

 

the lamps are removable…you can set them up however you want, including all or none at all.

 

The rest and irons, are in the parts bag, along side the vac hose, shank, brakegear, snowplough….

 

if you don't like it, just remove them all and put lamp-irons in.

 

were supposed to be railway modellers, is fitting a lamp/iron  into a hole designed for it suddenly beyond us ?

 

i used to make lamp irons out of matchstick shavings 30 years ago when lamp irons werent even available, let alone lamps.

Edited April 25 by adb968008