SECR Maunsell D1 Class Locomotive

[Garethp8873]

2 hours ago, Graham_Muz said:

I assume you meant side feeds removed...

 

Yes and edited 😊

[No Decorum]

10 hours ago, Garethp8873 said:

 

Now how long can I resist ordering a 31487 for re-livery into SR Wartime Black livery...?

 

Probably not long. 😁 I’m still waiting for my sound version but if my Manor and the comments here are anything to go by, I’m in for a treat.

[Olive_Green1923]

51 minutes ago, No Decorum said:

Probably not long. 😁 I’m still waiting for my sound version but if my Manor and the comments here are anything to go by, I’m in for a treat.

Interested to hear what the sound version sounds like! Historically I haven’t opted for sound fitted locos because of cost as well as because they usually sounded unrealistic, but the calibre of sound locos now is so much higher that I’d be interested to hear what the D1 is like.

[No Decorum]

19 minutes ago, Olive_Green1923 said:

Interested to hear what the sound version sounds like! Historically I haven’t opted for sound fitted locos because of cost as well as because they usually sounded unrealistic, but the calibre of sound locos now is so much higher that I’d be interested to hear what the D1 is like.

They do take a bit of getting used to. Each project is different and it can be awkward moving from one loco to another, especially if you have a lot of them. There are few fixed conventions – F0 for lights and F1 for sound are two. The particularly important brake function can be found on F2 or F5 (thank heaven for the red button!) I wasn’t impressed by Hornby’s Zero1, brave project though it was, so I was cautious in embarking on DCC. It wasn’t long after I decided that I liked it that I got my first sound loco and I’ve been hooked ever since. There is no doubt it’s expensive. Most manufacturer-fitted models charge £100 (sometimes a little less) more than the standard model, which is a bargain. Decent after-market decoders and speakers will cost more. I’ll admit that I found Dapol’s £125 premium hard to take and got a GWR Mogul without sound. Bad move. After experiencing the Manor and the D, I pay the extra.

 

You’re right about the improvement in sound projects over the years. There are many more features, they are better executed and speakers and sound chambers have improved too. The fact that you have to drive the things adds to the charm, although when your little machine stands burbling away and won’t move, you wonder what’s gone wrong until you realise that the handbrake is still applied!

 

That’s just one person’s view, though. There are people who just don’t like it and they are perfectly entitled to their point of view.

[Garethp8873]

6 hours ago, No Decorum said:

Probably not long. 😁 I’m still waiting for my sound version but if my Manor and the comments here are anything to go by, I’m in for a treat.

 

Probably not but I have several Rapido SR 8 Planks to purchase as well... :D

[MikeParkin65]

11 hours ago, Olive_Green1923 said:

Interested to hear what the sound version sounds like! Historically I haven’t opted for sound fitted locos because of cost as well as because they usually sounded unrealistic, but the calibre of sound locos now is so much higher that I’d be interested to hear what the D1 is like.

I believe Dapol use Zimo sound decoders which in my experience provide the best control in terms of smoothness and controllability. A lot depends on the quality of the sound project and the speaker fitted but from clips i've seen the Manor is good so I'd be optimistic re this model

[Wickham Green too]

On 22/06/2023 at 20:37, Wickham Green too said:

My reading of John Harvey's 'Southern Style - After Nationalisation' suggests that 31487 retained 'SOUTHERN' on the tender when renumbered in June 1948 ...

John has been kind enough to check Barry Fletcher's contemporary notes and they confirm that 31487 did retain 'SOUTHERN' on the tender when renumbered in June'48. Not long afterwards ( date not recorded ) it received lined black livery with B.R. style Gill Sans 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' on the tender and cabside number to suit ......... in May '49 it lost the tender lettering ( so blank ) but gained a smokebox plate.

Needless to say tender insignia changes MIGHT be explained by tender swaps - but it seems that Rails' combination is more than a little unlikely within the known timescale.

[Olive_Green1923]

D1 prototype query: I have read on other threads about the Birkenhead trains, and have subsequently read Bradley’s writings about how the D1s were responsible for getting the Dover portions to Redhill before another loco (usually an N class) reversed the train and took it onwards to Reading. According to Bradley, this practice was soon stopped because of rough riding at speed, and a D1 was substituted to take the train onwards to Reading via Guildford (where the Bournemouth portion would be taken south, typically by a T9).

 

Hopefully someone can shed light on the following questions:

 

1. When did the D1s takeover from

the Ns in taking the train onwards from Redhill to Reading?

 

2a. Did the Birkenhead train always contain a Bournemouth West portion that was detached at Guildford? Or was it sometimes just the Dover train that arrived and went through to Reading?

 

2b. I have read in other threads how SR and GWR coaches supposedly alternated on the Birkenhead trains (?). On the days when the train was made up of SR coaches, would these have been Maunsells? And if so, from what year?

 

2c. Following on from the above, do we know the configuration of the Maunsells between Redhill and Guildford? Presumably it was a fairly long train with the Dover portion + Bournemouth portion? Would the latter also be Maunsells or could it be a mix of Maunsell + GWR coaches for each portion?

 

Thanks in advance.

[Jack P]

Still waiting on my pair - but can I just ask if there's any info on why it seems the model doesn't come with cab doors/without the slot for them? I know the D's cab doors were very straightforward. 

[Olive_Green1923]

6 hours ago, Jack P said:

Still waiting on my pair - but can I just ask if there's any info on why it seems the model doesn't come with cab doors/without the slot for them? I know the D's cab doors were very straightforward. 

The prototype didn’t have the cab doors that are referred to in the instructions. It looks like an oversight by who ever produced the user manual. 

[Pre Grouping fan]

Could have been copied over from the D class manual?

[Jack P]

1 hour ago, Olive_Green1923 said:

The prototype didn’t have the cab doors that are referred to in the instructions. It looks like an oversight by who ever produced the user manual. 

 

24 minutes ago, Pre Grouping fan said:

Could have been copied over from the D class manual?

 

I thought both of these might be a possibility, but:

 

 

 

Those definitely look like cab doors to me. There are a couple of other photos where they look half open/closed.

[Olive_Green1923]

1 hour ago, Jack P said:

 

 

I thought both of these might be a possibility, but:

 

 

 

Those definitely look like cab doors to me. There are a couple of other photos where they look half open/closed.

 

I have doubled checked my copy of David Maidment's book which has lots of photos of the D1. Can't see any signs of cab doors in either the Southern or BR locos - although this isn't helped by the fact nearly all the photos are more down the line than side on. The interior of the cab / front of the tender can also throw up some red herrings, especially if the photos are taken at a distance or in a certain light. This may be the case with your photos, but yes you can make out what seems to appear like a cab door. I have also looked at Maidment's photos of the E1, and these too appear to be without cab doors.

 

 

Edited July 3, 2023 by Olive_Green1923

[Oldddudders]

10 hours ago, Olive_Green1923 said:

D1 prototype query: I have read on other threads about the Birkenhead trains, and have subsequently read Bradley’s writings about how the D1s were responsible for getting the Dover portions to Redhill before another loco (usually an N class) reversed the train and took it onwards to Reading. According to Bradley, this practice was soon stopped because of rough riding at speed, and a D1 was substituted to take the train onwards to Reading via Guildford (where the Bournemouth portion would be taken south, typically by a T9).

 

Hopefully someone can shed light on the following questions:

 

1. When did the D1s takeover from

the Ns in taking the train onwards from Redhill to Reading?

 

2a. Did the Birkenhead train always contain a Bournemouth West portion that was detached at Guildford? Or was it sometimes just the Dover train that arrived and went through to Reading?

 

2b. I have read in other threads how SR and GWR coaches supposedly alternated on the Birkenhead trains (?). On the days when the train was made up of SR coaches, would these have been Maunsells? And if so, from what year?

 

2c. Following on from the above, do we know the configuration of the Maunsells between Redhill and Guildford? Presumably it was a fairly long train with the Dover portion + Bournemouth portion? Would the latter also be Maunsells or could it be a mix of Maunsell + GWR coaches for each portion?

 

Thanks in advance.

I speak from a position of substantial ignorance, but mention of a Bournemouth portion detached at Guildford does not sound right. The Bomo portion would be from Birkenhead, surely, and detached at Reading, thence via Basingstoke and Winchester, surely?

 

I saw the Birkenhead through Dorking most school days from 1959-1964. In the early days it might be a Schools, later probably a Mogul. SR stock would typically be Maunsells in the early days, but all logic says the completion of Kent Coast Electrification in 1961 would have cascaded Bulleids or even Mk1s to the service. 

[Wickham Green too]

Cab doors are clearly shown on the GA drawing in Jim Russell's 'Southern Locomotives' - OK that's an E1 but I don't doubt the D1s were the same.

[Olive_Green1923]

1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

I speak from a position of substantial ignorance, but mention of a Bournemouth portion detached at Guildford does not sound right. The Bomo portion would be from Birkenhead, surely, and detached at Reading, thence via Basingstoke and Winchester, surely?

 

I saw the Birkenhead through Dorking most school days from 1959-1964. In the early days it might be a Schools, later probably a Mogul. SR stock would typically be Maunsells in the early days, but all logic says the completion of Kent Coast Electrification in 1961 would have cascaded Bulleids or even Mk1s to the service. 

 

Thanks for the info.

 

Re: the Bournemouth portion detachment, to quote directly from Bradley (Loco History of SECR (1980), pg 109):

 

"On 10 July 1922 three new through express services commenced running ... Deal (via Dover) and Margate Sands (via Canterbury West) via Ashford, Redhill, Reading and Oxford to Leamington Spa, Birmingham (Snow Hill), Wolverhampton (Low Level), Chester and Birkenhead (GWR); Dover Marine via Ashford, Redhill, Guildford, Havant and Southampton West to Bournemouth West (LSWR) ... a Dover D1 worked the combined Birkenhead and Bournemouth train to and from Redhill where a reversal made it necessary to provide another engine. At first an N Class 2-6-0 was sent down for this duty from Bricklayers Arms, but a D1 was substituted after complaints of rough riding at speed. The Bournemouth West carriages were removed at Guildford and with a Drummond T9 class 4-4-0 were routed over the Portsmouth line to Havant, Fareham and Southampton West. This became a most popular through connection and on summer Saturdays frequently formed of a train of its own." 

 

This reads to me like the Bournemouth train started at Deal, was detached at Guildford and went south to Bournemouth, whilst the D1 continued with its Birkenhead train to Reading?

 

Edit: There were of course trains which did run from Bournemouth to Birkenhead / Manchester (formations of which are in David Gould's Maunsell Stock book), but in the instance that Bradley refers to above, it seems there were also trains from Deal to Bournemouth which were part of the Deal to Birkenhead train? (unless this is wrong / an error?)

 

Following my original post, I have consulted David Gould's book on Maunsell stock. In his writings on the 59ft Maunsell stock (1929-34), most of the formation detail concerns the Bournemouth-Birkenhead / Newcastle / Leeds trains, but does write that Order 365 consisted of BTKs, TKs, BCKs and dining saloons, some of which may have been used on the Margate - Birkenhead services.

 

In any case, any detailed info on the Deal - Birkenhead Maunsell formations is greatly appreciated.

 

Edited July 3, 2023 by Olive_Green1923

[Jack P]

1 hour ago, Olive_Green1923 said:

 

I have doubled checked my copy of David Maidment's book which has lots of photos of the D1. Can't see any signs of cab doors in either the Southern or BR locos - although this isn't helped by the fact nearly all the photos are more down the line than side on. The interior of the cab / front of the tender can also throw up some red herrings, especially if the photos are taken at a distance or in a certain light. This may be the case with your photos, but yes you can make out what seems to appear like a cab door. I have also looked at Maidment's photos of the E1, and these too appear to be without cab doors.

 

 

 

Page 70, top left image (A470) very much looks like it has cab doors.

 

If you click on the images in my above post, you can zoom in. 31545 very much appears to have doors:

 

 

 

the E's, E1's L's, L1's and D's all have them, which begs the question why they'd be removed on the D1? I  would've thought you'd be hard pressed to find many tender engines without cab doors. (Even the Z and W tanks had them - among many others, but specifically those maunsell locos).

 

Perhaps rails arrived at the same conclusion though - and the images in the instructions are simply cut and pasted from the D?

[Olive_Green1923]

9 minutes ago, Jack P said:

 

Page 70, top left image (A470) very much looks like it has cab doors.

 

If you click on the images in my above post, you can zoom in. 31545 very much appears to have doors:

 

 

 

the E's, E1's L's, L1's and D's all have them, which begs the question why they'd be removed on the D1? I  would've thought you'd be hard pressed to find many tender engines without cab doors. (Even the Z and W tanks had them - among many others, but specifically those maunsell locos).

 

Perhaps rails arrived at the same conclusion though - and the images in the instructions are simply cut and pasted from the D?

 

Having flicked through some other books and I did find one photo of a D1 with what appears to be cab doors, but the angle / clarity isn't great once again. Graham Muz's post below, though, does have a side-on picture, and although a cab door is not apparent on the side closest to the camera, a cab door does seem to be present on the other side. It appears that these cab doors are quite small and maybe spent much of their time open and can therefore be easily camouflaged with all the other cab / tender furniture.

 

 

[Jack P]

1 minute ago, Olive_Green1923 said:

 

Having flicked through some other books and I did find one photo of a D1 with what appears to be cab doors, but the angle / clarity isn't great once again. Graham Muz's post below, though, does have a side-on picture, and although a cab door is not apparent on the side closest to the camera, a cab door does seem to be present on the other side. It appears that these cab doors are quite small and maybe spent much of their time open and can therefore be easily camouflaged with all the other cab / tender furniture.

 

One would be forgiven for thinking that the LBSC locos with Tender mounted external cab doors, ran with them perpetually open. 

 

As for the D1 I suppose I can just knock some up and attach them when the time comes. I did very much like the D's mounting method, as it allowed for some flexibility without breaking.

 

[Olive_Green1923]

16 minutes ago, Jack P said:

 

One would be forgiven for thinking that the LBSC locos with Tender mounted external cab doors, ran with them perpetually open. 

 

As for the D1 I suppose I can just knock some up and attach them when the time comes. I did very much like the D's mounting method, as it allowed for some flexibility without breaking.

 

 

I have sent an email to Dapol about the absence of doors. Will update once I hear back.

[Garethp8873]

Just got my hands on some good D1 negatives :)

 

31505 and 31494 both with Sunshine lettering on the tenders :)

 

 

[cctransuk]

10 hours ago, Olive_Green1923 said:

 

I have sent an email to Dapol about the absence of doors. Will update once I hear back.

 

I can understand a little disappointment if an advertised feature is absent, but - how difficult can it be to make and fit a pair of cab doors?

 

CJI.

[Graham_Muz]

14 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

I can understand a little disappointment if an advertised feature is absent, but - how difficult can it be to make and fit a pair of cab doors?

 

CJI.

In this case not, but that's not the point. 

[Olive_Green1923]

31 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

I can understand a little disappointment if an advertised feature is absent, but - how difficult can it be to make and fit a pair of cab doors?

 

CJI.

To clarify, I’m not particularly miffed by the absence of cab doors. The loco is fantastic, but given that it came at a premium of £200, one would expect things like cab doors to be included if prototypical, especially as the number of accessories is quite low in general. I have emailed Dapol mostly out of curiosity after a fellow member raised the subject on this thread.

[No Decorum]

2 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

I can understand a little disappointment if an advertised feature is absent, but - how difficult can it be to make and fit a pair of cab doors?

 

CJI.

Colour matching the green ones might not be so easy.